Uwe's plans
AurOn2
COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
<div class="IPBDescription">I don't get it</div>UWE, seriously, im lost as to what the hell you are trying to acomplish atm. You are obviously rushing to release your game but the rush is the problem, you keep jumbling up the balance, breaking things, adding more things to make up for the broken things. what happened to the design documents? Now it seems you seem to keep just adding stupid new features, reducing ones that worked perfectly (maybe needed a few tweaks to balance it, but worked) and adding ones that do not? i am entirely lost. I used to love this game.. but now.. all i want you to release is the engine, the games a hoax, a terrible attempt at what you would call the sucessor of ns1. The direction you are taking is absolutely terrible and it is just harder to balance and make fun at the same time. what do you really want, a sucessor to ns1 or a new game? you seem to be trying to jumble the two plus a bit more.
Tl:Dr, rethink what you are making, cos this jumbled mess is going nowhere good, fast.
P.S, im going to try to compile All the problems i can in a document, probably in google docs and i'll link to it here when i think i've addressed all the problems i can find. i already have One in my sig, hydras!
Tl:Dr, rethink what you are making, cos this jumbled mess is going nowhere good, fast.
P.S, im going to try to compile All the problems i can in a document, probably in google docs and i'll link to it here when i think i've addressed all the problems i can find. i already have One in my sig, hydras!
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Comments
that will only add to the chaos
the best thing you can do to help is play quake live
That said, you have some legitimate points. I too worry about the game. It's supposed to be out in, Jesus, a month I think, and it <b>still isn't feature complete</b>. That's scary. Very scary. And balance is a <i>long</i> way off.
I can understand the fact that they want to hurry up and finish the game. They've been working on it for a very long time. But releasing it just to release it isn't a good enough reason. Personally, I think they should wait until Christmas to release the game, and stop experimenting with new abilities -- the time for that is long past. Balance and polish is key now. New abilities can wait for post 1.0.
Quite a few civilized, well approached and organized threads with plenty of great feedback and ideas have gone largely unnoticed. If you are not in the "inner circle" or have the title of playertester, you're ignored and sometimes even spoken down to. Even then, some playertesters haven't had any luck such as Saba. UWE is making the game they want to make and they've chosen not to listen to their player base which is totally fine, but they will reap what they sow when this game flops at launch and they're scratching their heads wondering why.
This really captures what I'm feeling right now.
<!--quoteo(post=1950882:date=Jul 12 2012, 02:52 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Jul 12 2012, 02:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950882"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UWE is making the game they want to make and they've chosen not to listen to their player base which is totally fine, but they will reap what they sow when this game flops at launch and they're scratching their heads wondering why.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really don't want to believe this but I'm concerned that it's true. I'm sure the game will do well at launch, UWE is putting plenty of effort in to community hype, but I'm not sure how many NS1 fans will be out there promoting it.
Ummm.... ive found quite the opposite to be true to be honest, my very first thread on these forums was replied to by a moderator, who explained what i should do, thanked me for my suggestions, and welcomed me to the forums....
Ive found that ideas ive posted have generated discussion, often with that discussion making me realise that what i thought was the problem was not the problem, or that there was a better way.
Seems like an incredibly nice and welcoming community tbh. Maybe its because i am so polite myself, maybe we are all reaping what we sow.
I really don't want to believe this but I'm concerned that it's true. I'm sure the game will do well at launch, UWE is putting plenty of effort in to community hype, but I'm not sure how many NS1 fans will be out there promoting it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i guess most ns1 fans allready pre ordered the game. lets hope im wrong, but i believe its gonna be a flop.
snooops
Still, they have already made their money off of me, and I am enjoying the game enough (it's not perfect, but it's still pretty good) that I will keep on playing it. My hope is that it will rise to my expectations. Each build brings changes, ones I both enjoy and detest, agree with and disagree with, which will (again, I hope) be smoothed out over time.
This community is absolutely dire as far as I can tell, there are so many examples of the devs reverting changes because they're disliked and listening to the community, participating in discussions etcetera and then everyone just moans anyway because they're not just remaking NS1, it's ridiculous.
UWE does listen a lot more to its community than other developers do (they kinda have to with this whole beta-preorder business), but they also do some very inexplicable things that leave the community out of the loop completely, and that is what leaves a bit of a sour taste with people I'm guessing.
They don't listen? So why is BB on the gorge again? And wgy can we hit Fades in blink now? Why are tier bound on number of hives again? Why can the Flamer finally do smth about the infestation?
Ah yeah because they don't listen....
You just see what not is in and not where they listened to us.
Again it is a real beta, and it isn't feauture complete now, so goddamit expect changes. Changes you din't like but 50% of the players do but din't weite in the forum, there are only a handfull of players that post in the forum regulary.
+1
At some patches I think 'Oh, that's not good', but 4 weeks later I start the game and think 'Oh, they got it changed'.
They are still going to make it a great game, they just can not react on everything in 1 week. What we see is patches for <b>testing</b>, not for enjoying like a 1.0
EDIT: The only thing I will probably miss for always is NS1 Fade Movement. One of the most brilliant classes in any game ever (due to the Bhop mechanics + blink)
It's a really bad idea to make a new engine and a new game from scratch. If they had stuck with the source engine they could have afforded all this experimenting; as it is, it's really comming down to the wire and they're still making sweeping changes.
If you're going too make your own engine, start from the game you sunk 3 painstaking years of beta testing into balancing(not alpha, actual, <b>feature-complete</b> beta). NS2 is so unlike NS1 in so many ways that it's going to take at least another year or so from feature completion to get it reasonably polished(as with NS 1.0x -> NS 2.0); it's going to be a messy launch.
If you're going too make your own engine, start from the game you sunk 3 painstaking years of beta testing into balancing(not alpha, actual, <b>feature-complete</b> beta). NS2 is so unlike NS1 in so many ways that it's going to take at least another year or so from feature completion to get it reasonably polished(as with NS 1.0x -> NS 2.0); it's going to be a messy launch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is that productive?
If you're going too make your own engine, start from the game you sunk 3 painstaking years of beta testing into balancing(not alpha, actual, <b>feature-complete</b> beta). NS2 is so unlike NS1 in so many ways that it's going to take at least another year or so from feature completion to get it reasonably polished(as with NS 1.0x -> NS 2.0); it's going to be a messy launch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh my. I disagree with you on so many levels, I'm not even going to bother explaining. It all boils down to this anyway: If all developers had this mentality, we'd never see any new games.
Well, short of time travel it's too late to do anything about it. NS2 will either be delayed or a mess on launch.
I don't follow?
I recall infestation spikes being announced at the same time as enzyme cloud and rupture, though they came in later. Also I can't count the number of threads calling for AV needing a drawback (though it was hotly contested), and I thought adding one was always in the works. Though admittedly I knew there was going to be backlash as soon as I read about the change, because I never expected such a significant drawback.
regarding other stuff people have said:
As others are saying, UWE listens to the community plenty, and any responses I've seen them give to the community that even approach "talking down" were provoked by still more condescending comments from the original poster.
Also I really wonder sometimes whether what the current NS2 beta community (largely the NS1 community) wants is representative of what gamers want in general. I personally like a skill cap right around tf2 levels, but a lot of you seem to want to push it to quake levels. Quite contrary to the OP, i more frequently worry that the dev's are listening too much and that the NS1 community is slowly hassling them into remaking NS1 before NS2 has had a chance to see 1.0 and a wider market.
how about the starcraft 2 alpha/beta/post-release?
blizzard doesn't close every thread you post if you aren't an official playtester, and they've made tons of changes that<i> all players</i> agree with (instead of fan-service for the 5 loudest idiots)
your move.
<!--quoteo(post=1951108:date=Jul 12 2012, 06:12 PM:name=serpico)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (serpico @ Jul 12 2012, 06:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951108"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also I really wonder sometimes whether what the current NS2 beta community (largely the NS1 community) wants is representative of what gamers want in general. I personally like a skill cap right around tf2 levels, but a lot of you seem to want to push it to quake levels<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
as someone who has played competitively in both tf2 and quake, this is basically impossible for me to understand
the two games have some overlap in their skillsets (shooting rockets, weaponjumping, item/map control), but they each have lots of unique things going on as well...there is no "tf2 level" skill cap on the same scale as "quake level"
"ns2 skill" is on a different scale from both games, and all you can do is look at the component parts of the game and say whether they are well skill-indexed or not (for instance, something like infestation spikes has basically zero skill-indexing, while the lerk's spikes are miles ahead of most weapons in the game)
<!--quoteo(post=1951101:date=Jul 12 2012, 05:45 PM:name=Angelusz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angelusz @ Jul 12 2012, 05:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh my. I disagree with you on so many levels, I'm not even going to bother explaining. It all boils down to this anyway: If all developers had this mentality, we'd never see any new games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are both right. Its true making both a new engine and a new game from scratch can lead to some pretty revolutionary titles, but <i>only</i> if you have a sizable team to work on it. UWE has one, read 'em, <i>one</i> person designing their engine. That's simply not enough.
Given the spectacularly small developer size UWE has, they should have either
<blockquote>A) Created a new engine, but made few changes in gameplay from NS1</blockquote>
or
<blockquote>B) Make drastic changes from NS1, but use someone else's engine</blockquote>
They simply don't have time to do both, and the fact that they <i>did</i> do both is why its taken so long to make the game. And the fact that, as I've mentioned before, release is only a month or two away and the game still isn't feature complete.
the two games have some overlap in their skillsets (shooting rockets, weaponjumping, item/map control), but they each have lots of unique things going on as well...there is no "tf2 level" skill cap on the same scale as "quake level"
"ns2 skill" is on a different scale from both games, and all you can do is look at the component parts of the game and say whether they are well skill-indexed or not (for instance, something like infestation spikes has basically zero skill-indexing, while the lerk's spikes are miles ahead of most weapons in the game)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't play anything competitively, and I haven't really played quake for more than a few hours, so maybe I'm misspeaking, but my impression was that there is a tremendous importance of twitch reflexes in quake, and the b-hopping videos i've seen of it have reinforced that. It strikes me as an extremely fast paced game where one there's a great deal of importance on being able to aim and click the fastest when someone wanders onto your screen.
tf2, i've played a ton in pubs, and in general, whenver someone is better than me at twitch movement, i can still counter them in some way by changing up my tactics. It's awfully rare (though it does happen) that I see anyone completely dominating a server, and I also don't usually see a lone star player carry a team.
When referring to "skill" i meant movement and aim specifically rather than tactics. Am I wrong in saying quake has a higher skill cap than tf2? It certainly looks a ton faster paced in videos I've seen.
The new change with fade (which most of you like) is an example of what I'm talking about. Fades who are comfortable moving around at 90 mph for most of the game are now better at fade. Marines who can hit a fade when he's zooming around at blink speed are now better against fades. Skill cap has increased. And like many changes the community wants, aesthetics has been thrown aside as an afterthought instead of a priority. "Zooming" fades are not nearly as cool in appearance or in concept as teleporting ones. My favorite blink was the "POOF GONE" one seen in the Gorilla trailer.
-Angelusz<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></sub>
If you're going too make your own engine, start from the game you sunk 3 painstaking years of beta testing into balancing(not alpha, actual, <b>feature-complete</b> beta). NS2 is so unlike NS1 in so many ways that it's going to take at least another year or so from feature completion to get it reasonably polished(as with NS 1.0x -> NS 2.0); it's going to be a messy launch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Worst comment i've ever seen. There are some fact that people who never challenge are always disrespectful against who challenge :)
Unfortunately, UWE has decided to have its cake and eat it (develop an in-house engine AND make drastic gameplay changes from NS1), which has lead to the game taking a very long time to develop. And it's still a long way off even so close to release.
Bilebomb is on the gorge again because they saw how horrible it was on the lerk while people new to the game tried using it at a game show and failed miserably. They even said so themselves. No mention of consideration of the feedback on the forums. Lerks still a mess because of the wasted time of trying out a mechanic people said wouldn't work.
Tiers back on hives because maturation experiment failed. Back to the pseudo-NS1 model.
You were able to hit fades before this patch, now you're able to hit them even easier and do full damage. This was changed due to the increase health and armor fades received. I give it a couple days till the whiny marine masses cry OP and they nerf fades back into oblivion.
Flamers did a fine enough job killing cysts before this patch. Now they made it easier to kill cysts with any weapon. Hardly worth even considering as receiving "feedback".
Then we have stupid changes like Alien Vision reducing energy regeneration which was probably thought up by some pissy marine player who got mad that fades now stood a fighting chance against them with jetpacks, so they came up with that half brained idea.
It's as if it's their goal to annoy the hell out of the people who play Aliens and they're doing a good job of it. Shall I list the problems Aliens have that have been said multiple times? Zero scaling, horrendous tradeoffs (carapace slow and now AV), lerks' poison bite still problematic (useless), skulks useless late game, onos hardly worthy of the title siege lifeform, zero scaling, defensive structures are mediocre, healing hive too slow, late game sieging is awful and more. And that's only Aliens. The tons of handicaps given to the marines also cause plenty of problems for the aliens too. Nanoshield, nanoconstructure, cheesiness of arcs, blah blah blah. I'm sure you've heard all this a hundred times.
<!--quoteo(post=1951101:date=Jul 12 2012, 10:45 PM:name=Angelusz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angelusz @ Jul 12 2012, 10:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh my. I disagree with you on so many levels, I'm not even going to bother explaining. It all boils down to this anyway: If all developers had this mentality, we'd never see any new games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are people who have stuck with the development for more than 3 years without really having a very good idea of when and what the final product will be. Stop treating them like little children.
The only way we are going to see new (and innovative) games is if people realize the realities involved. You can't push the boundaries in every area with minimal resoucres. You have to pick the things you can afford. That's just how it goes, you can't expect to film a Hollywood production on your backyard.
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As for the reaction to feedback I don't even care that much. In perfect world I'd like to have the devs slam a complete game in front of me and let me figure out how to live with their vision.
In a development process like this I'd probably mostly like to see solid reasoning for the decisions made and good demontration of understanding of the potential outcomes. There's nothing quite as frustrating as seeing a change made, predicting that X is going to occur and then later see the changes being reverted because of the very same X. Obviously you need optimism and willingness to challenge things, but at the same time headbutting yourself to the known and likely issues without a proper backup/evasion plan isn't exactly the way to go either.