losing leap
LPC
Join Date: 2002-04-07 Member: 384Members, Reinforced - Diamond
Join Date: 2002-04-07 Member: 384Members, Reinforced - Diamond
ok, first off, getting leap on the second hive is perfect, it brings back the old skulk stealth kills back to the early game. makes it more intense really.
but often times you lose the second hive in mid-game, and I honestly believe that leap (just leap really) should be the upgrade that is permanent even after you loose the second hive.
(so blink etc. would go, but only leap would stay)
allthough this might seem a weird mechanism, I find it necessary for game-play.
why permanent? because a skulk should be equal to a marine, and quite frankly this is usually not the case anymore in mid-game because of marine upgrades + weapons
making leap permanent even if you lose the second would even out the playing experience for skulks, and probably also keep mid-game more balanced when you have only 1 hive left.
what are your thoughts on this???
greetings,
but often times you lose the second hive in mid-game, and I honestly believe that leap (just leap really) should be the upgrade that is permanent even after you loose the second hive.
(so blink etc. would go, but only leap would stay)
allthough this might seem a weird mechanism, I find it necessary for game-play.
why permanent? because a skulk should be equal to a marine, and quite frankly this is usually not the case anymore in mid-game because of marine upgrades + weapons
making leap permanent even if you lose the second would even out the playing experience for skulks, and probably also keep mid-game more balanced when you have only 1 hive left.
what are your thoughts on this???
greetings,
Comments
and you can't always keep the second hive, obviously, especially on pubs.
there needs to be a mechanic that keeps skulks on par with marines in mid-late-game, and I really think my idea would be a good solution.
I've played NS2 for over 100 hours now, and I know what I'm talking about when I say that it isn't <u>fun</u> to fight full lvl2 or 3 marines as a skulk without leap.
<!--quoteo(post=1951060:date=Jul 12 2012, 09:52 PM:name=LPC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LPC @ Jul 12 2012, 09:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951060"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've played NS2 for over 100 hours now, and I know what I'm talking about when I say that it isn't <u>fun</u> to fight full lvl2 or 3 marines as a skulk without leap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you still fight with a skulk against lvl 2 (wep/arm) marines you are doing something wrong ;)
and you can't always keep the second hive, obviously, especially on pubs.
there needs to be a mechanic that keeps skulks on par with marines in mid-late-game, and I really think my idea would be a good solution.
I've played NS2 for over 100 hours now, and I know what I'm talking about when I say that it isn't <u>fun</u> to fight full lvl2 or 3 marines as a skulk without leap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Metagame shifts can help one team (aliens) counter a currently overpowering strategy (killing second hive). This happens because the one team (aliens) can learn how to properly mitigate and overcome the problem. If a metagame doesn't overcome problems over a long period of time, then you have a stagnant metagame which basically means that your game is competitively dead. A day or two isn't enough time to conclude that a metagame shift won't happen.
But on topic, if the marines kill the hive (a big win for them) then shouldn't you be punished by a significant loss? If your team snipes out 2-3 RTs and suddenly marines can't afford shotguns against fades, isn't that ok? It's an RTS-FPS where if you win a big fight now, presumably it should have a tangible benefit in the future.
But on topic, if the marines kill the hive (a big win for them) then shouldn't you be punished by a significant loss? If your team snipes out 2-3 RTs and suddenly marines can't afford shotguns against fades, isn't that ok? It's an RTS-FPS where if you win a big fight now, presumably it should have a tangible benefit in the future.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
If you still fight with a skulk against lvl 2 (wep/arm) marines you are doing something wrong ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But his suggestion doesn't give you an early game skulk who can win against everything. You still don't get leap until 2nd hive is built.
He is just suggesting that once mid-game 2nd hive is established and leap is researched that it cannot be lost if 2nd hive is killed.
I really do like this suggestion as it's very hard to do anything as a skulk w/out leap against 2/3 lvl marines, especially if they have JPs.
Oh and your little comment about playing skulk against upgraded marines is non-sense. Not everyone can save for a fade or onos and keep them forever once you evolve.
E.G. I played gorge for 3/4 of the game and was killed many times which costed res to keep re-evolving to save my hydras and such. Well now we're towards the end and gorge is just not effective anymore and don't have enough res to go fade or onos or possible even lerk so skulk it is. Oh but wait, we lost our 2nd hive and I have no leap now. Makes me pretty useless against marines.
2nd E.G. I was able to go fade/onos as you suggest but was killed. Now I'm back to having little to no res left and forced to play skulk. Repeat last example and outcome is the same.
He is just suggesting that once mid-game 2nd hive is established and leap is researched that it cannot be lost if 2nd hive is killed.
I really do like this suggestion as it's very hard to do anything as a skulk w/out leap against 2/3 lvl marines, especially if they have JPs.
Oh and your little comment about playing skulk against upgraded marines is non-sense. Not everyone can save for a fade or onos and keep them forever once you evolve.
E.G. I played gorge for 3/4 of the game and was killed many times which costed res to keep re-evolving to save my hydras and such. Well now we're towards the end and gorge is just not effective anymore and don't have enough res to go fade or onos or possible even lerk so skulk it is. Oh but wait, we lost our 2nd hive and I have no leap now. Makes me pretty useless against marines.
2nd E.G. I was able to go fade/onos as you suggest but was killed. Now I'm back to having little to no res left and forced to play skulk. Repeat last example and outcome is the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that not everybody can safe res and losing your current lifeform happens quite fast but i think that the marine team should always have the option to throw the aliens back in tech with a hive kill. There is no point in making games longer by giving aliens the option to counter again with skulks. Currently it looks like the devs are aiming for a good lerk as jp counter etc. (again the pres problems yes, but the balance work hasnt even startet yet). But when the alien team loses their lifeforms and/or their hives then it means that they failed at some point so the marines have an advantage over the alien team. The alien teams need way more teamplay on pub against upgraded marines and not a group of lone players who run around killing everything ( like in the last builds :/ )
I usually prefer more short rounds (20-max30 mins) than rounds that take 40-60 mins of playtime.
But since the game balance changes every build maybe the way upgrades work will change again and im sure the devs will look at the current issues as soon as the game is feature complete :)
I usually prefer more short rounds (20-max30 mins) than rounds that take 40-60 mins of playtime.
But since the game balance changes every build maybe the way upgrades work will change again and im sure the devs will look at the current issues as soon as the game is feature complete :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's funny because I believe the reason we feel different about this is based on how long game play should last. You feel that game play should only be 30min max where as I prefer the longer 45-60 min games.
I feel the short games are like this, you lose one Hive or CC it's game over.
In longer games I feel that even though we lost a Hive or CC, we could still make a push to recover and make a come back to win.
The longer games are just more entertaining to me, but only as long as there's progress being made whether it's on one side or even both.
I will agree that long games that only one side is making progress and basically not ending it when they obviously could are not very fun.
Personally, I feel as long as you stay alive, you should keep your existing upgrades/abilities even if you lose the corresponding upgrade/ability structure. The current method is simply highly disruptive in combat, penalizing you immediately for something that may not be your fault (for example, losing cara in the middle of a fight because a marine just sniped your cara shell).
I think how the jetpack handled is the correct way to go about this. If you lose the 2nd CS, all marines with jetpacks don't suddenly lose their jetpacks in mid flight (which would be silly), but lose the ability to purchase another jetpack if they die. The fact that this occurs for much of the alien tech (e.g. leap, blink, bilebomb, etc) and some marine tech (e.g. weapon/armor upgrades) is one of the big reasons behind the tech explosion/implosion problem with tech tied to captured tech nodes.
Marines are attackers, skulks are ambushers. If you assault as a skulk you will get killed, stop using alienvision all the time and hide in the shadows and vents.
Compare that to a vanilla skulk which remains teh same through out the entire game.
Having some 2nd hive abilities remain even if 2nd hive is lost is more about balancing the vanilla lifeforms.
Sure fade/onos might be better mid-late game lifeforms but if you dont have the res you stuck with vanilla skulk.
For aliens this remains as sucky at the 10 second mark as the 10 min mark, marines atleast improve their vanilla spawning lifeform.
Assymetry is fine...but having one vanilla lifeform evolve over the game and the other to not just makes for bad game play.
Skulks being vanilla need to upgrade somehow to allow them to scale to teh vanilla marine...with the vanilla skulk so weak compared to a w3 a3 marine aliens are not going to be able to fight for long in a 50-50 map control situation.
Assume mid to late game neither side has any res to spend on purchasing any upgrades the marines will always win as they have inherited the weapons and armour upgrades.
This is why I say its bad game play as either side should be able to win from the above situation...well it should atleast be a lot closer than it currently is.
This seems like the best way to go about it to me. I'm not entirely sure how it works in-game at the moment, but you shouldn't lose leap if your hive goes down until you die and respawn.
I'd also extend the logic to say that on the death of an arms lab, the current marines should maintain their weapons and armor upgrades, but newly-spawned marines should start with weapons and armor 0.
Metagame is not strategy derived from game design and balance changes.
Metagame is strategy developed by a change in the players themselves, without the game itself having changed.
Consequences to losing a tech building impact aliens differently.
Whether it be a hive or evolution chamber.
The reasons marines don't need to lose the jetpack in midflight is because they don't spawn with a jetpack attached for free.
Consequences to losing a tech building impact aliens differently.
Whether it be a hive or evolution chamber.
The reasons marines don't need to lose the jetpack in midflight is because they don't spawn with a jetpack attached for free.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerks, Gorges, Fades and Onos are not free (they cost a lot more than comparable Marine weapons). Even by your logic, they shouldn't lose abilities when a hive is lost.
I agree, that aliens should keep unlocked abilities until death, even when a Hive is lost.
Tech sniping detracts from the FPS side of NS2, and sacrifices too much fun, in the name of RTS-style balancing. If a team wishes to remove the other team's weapons/lifeforms, they should have to do it by killing players, rather than by just destroying immobile, defenseless structures.
In term of game balance, I feel too much emphasis is being placed on second Hive once again.
This is a very good idea :)
The main focus of his suggestion would be do stand a chance if marines just killed your 2. hive, thus giving skulks a better mid-game, even when it's going bad for the team.
For me this change would be ok. It would be nice that skulks not completely fall off after their 2. hive got destroyed, although the solution feels a bit inconsistent with the rest of design.
I also agree that aliens should keep their upgrades till they die.
most argue that if you lose your second hive their should be a penalty, and thus losing leap is fine. however I think that losing blink, stomp, spikes, bile-bomb etc. is more then enough of a penalty.
it's not like its going to be super easy to overcome lvl3 marines in late game if you still have leap, it would just make your chances of turning the tide a only a little more probable.
Also like someone else mentioned before, if you're suposed to lose if you lost the second hive, you may as well end the game at that point then. come-backs are what make games more fun IMO.
just my two-cents
This is my biggest concern. At the current time, losing your second hive means game over. You likely lost all your fades in defense of that hive, so now everyone is in Skulks with no leap. The enemy has jetpacks. Game over.
But seriously, why shouldn't that be practically game over?
If you lose all of your most advanced lifeforms and your one of your two most important structures and the second most important position on the map. And then, what? You shouldn't lose? It's like saying: well I lost, so then I lost and that's not fair! It's still possible to come back on one hive, assuming you haven't lost so much stuff failing to defend it. You can still have fades with shadowstep, lerks, and gorges to defend.
And no, marines won't usually have jetpacks for second hive in a close game. If marines a) get jetpacks and b) kill your second hive then that means that the marines have a) successfully defended their second tech point and b) successfully assaulted your second tech point. From my perspective, that's called "getting owned" and typically followed by a rightfully crushing defeat.
(Though I wouldn't be opposed to people keeping their upgrades until they die. I think that's a decent compromise. If that was put in for aliens, it would also have to be put in for marine upgrades, ie no vortexing arms lab.)
Just imagine the simple case that aliens have lots of rts, 2 hives and marines somehow manage to sneak into one of the hiverooms, get a pg up and shoot the hive down. Not unlikely and certainly not a case where I wouldn't say "aliens deserve to loose right now and should not be able to come back from this". I'm not saying that it ain't possible right now, that just a bit how your post sounds.
In this case, even with vanilla 214 settings, it WOULD NOT be game over. If the aliens have "lots of rts" then they can rebuild their hive very easily. In fact, they should have third and fourth hives going up regardless of losing their second hive.
That's why you don't de-evolve when you lose a hive.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even by your logic, they shouldn't lose abilities when a hive is lost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those upgrades are free based on having a particular structure. Makes perfect sense to lose them when you lose the structure.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree, that aliens should keep unlocked abilities until death, even when a Hive is lost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would be very confusing for the marines, who can no longer anticipate what the aliens have based on their level of infrastructure.
The issue is that the game continues even after it is, for all intents and purposes, over. As I view it, you can solve the issue by either
1. Making that another lose condition (if you lose ANY hive, you lose) or
2. Making losing a hive a setback, but not crippling (by alive players keeping their existing upgrades)
Having the game continue after one team has no viable path to victory is just bad design for a FPS.
1. Making that another lose condition (if you lose ANY hive, you lose) or
2. Making losing a hive a setback, but not crippling (by alive players keeping their existing upgrades)
Having the game continue after one team has no viable path to victory is just bad design for a FPS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right. We're already solidly in #2. I've seen a few games (including gathers) where the aliens have come back from losing their second hive. The thing you can't recover from is losing your second hive, allowing marines a second CC, and/or losing your RTs with either of the previous conditions.
I'm not opposed to allowing players to keep their upgrades until they die, but keeping things like leap/blink after hive death and player death would negate much of the improvement seen in b214's play.