I would prefer a big red win button, and when an alien press it you would have a voice saying "nuclear launch detected" and after 10 seconds the whole marine base blows up in a gigantic explosion.
I like the power node dynamic; it makes it a bit more complex in attacking and defending a marine stronghold. If it were not a factor, aliens would go for the command chair every time; sometimes it's better to go for the power node.
As for the tech placement problem, I think adding the power pack placement system when placing structures near a power node would solve this. That is, a blue line from the power node to the structure to be placed. The blue grid shows where you're legitimately able to place a structure; the blue line shows you which item (power node or power pack) will power your structure.
How does it make attacking and defending a stronghold more complex/interesting? It turns what was an interesting decision about what to chomp down into a total no-brainer. It's not true that the chair would always be the primary target without power. In actual fact, the aliens have to make a choice about whether to go for the temporary arms lab, the obs to stop reinforcement, the ips to stop spawning, the proto to stop jetpacks and so on. It's a far more interesting decision without the win-button, if you ask me. In NS1, there is <i>still</i> no consensus about what should be chomped first and its always dependent on the situation. That tells a story.
The fallacy is that an extra option (the power) leads to more choice/complexity/interest. In reality, if that option is overwhelmingly superior, the level of choice plummets.
I love the idea and effect of the power node - I haven't seen a node take out really bring down the quality of a game. A lot of the time its better to focus on a phase gate than on a powernode - but depending on the location it could be better the other way. To me that makes a more interesting game. Scardy's idea of building energy with a power down time seems like a great idea to me - at least for IPs/upgrades and phase gates.
The reason you haven't seen drops in game quality is because destroying them is a waste of time, except to end the game with one button in marine-start. The idea and effect of power have been shoved to the side and marginalised in a bid to prevent the problems they cause leaking out.
In NS1 a good strategy may be to rush the proto, AA or Armslab because it disabled either heavy weps and higher tech ups. Now, you can take out Arms, AA, proto, beacon, IPs just by rushing one single structure that has significantly less health then the rest.
Also marine rate of expansion is slower than Aliens because people have to build both RT and powernode. Alien lifeforms don't have to build anything all they have to do is kill the marines.
There is no doubt that the early game decides the course of the whole game, so if you don't have really good marines then you chances of winning are pretty small at best.
Sometimes, the powernode is situated in a place where its extremely difficult to defend either at the same time.
My issue is just that Aliens gain territory so easily. Why not prevent cysts or infestation from spreading into areas that have power nodes? This way you increase the usefulness and importance of the power node to gain territory. Also, why not have the CC power structures within a certain distance from it? This way you can have a small backup in case your main base node gets hit.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A lot of the time its better to focus on a phase gate than on a powernode - but depending on the location it could be better the other way. To me that makes a more interesting game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People learned to build pg just in front of the power node; pg in crossroad? in the middle close to the power, in flight control? close to the power node, the only place in summit where you don't build it close to the power node is dc because of the geometry.
In this situation the alien don't really have any choice of target, you attack the pg so you can also chomp phasing marines.
If the marines build far away from the power node then the alien can just take down the power.
In the end it just limits the amount of location where it is viable to build a phase gate, is that really interesting ?
<!--quoteo(post=1952336:date=Jul 18 2012, 11:34 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jul 18 2012, 11:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952336"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People learned to build pg just in front of the power node; pg in crossroad? in the middle close to the power, in flight control? close to the power node, the only place in summit where you don't build it close to the power node is dc because of the geometry.
In this situation the alien don't really have any choice of target, you attack the pg so you can also chomp phasing marines.
If the marines build far away from the power node then the alien can just take down the power.
In the end it just limits the amount of location where it is viable to build a phase gate, is that really interesting ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You say it limits the amount of locations, I say it provides places where a "good" experienced player will place a PG and where an inexperienced person would place a PG. I enjoy high learning curves with a high-skill pay off. Things like laying your buildings out quickly and smartly will help you win - thats how I think games should be. Then again, dropping a factory ON TOP of the powernode should probably be changed =p
<!--quoteo(post=1951934:date=Jul 16 2012, 05:17 AM:name=mushookees)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mushookees @ Jul 16 2012, 05:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951934"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->power nodes are pointless, there are like 13 powernodes in summit ... yet only 1 really matters and that is the one in marine spawn.
They are free for marines to rebuild, aliens have no incentive to destroy them, infact they are a time sink for aliens to destroy, and they leave you vulnerable when you are chomping them down because you are usually a sitting duck facing a wall.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's always a good idea to destroy the power nodes of areas that marines will try to travel through or attack, because it makes ambushing them that muche easier. Plus if they stop to try to repair it, it's an easier kill.
<!--quoteo(post=1952411:date=Jul 18 2012, 07:36 PM:name=Rise)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rise @ Jul 18 2012, 07:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952411"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's always a good idea to destroy the power nodes of areas that marines will try to travel through or attack, because it makes ambushing them that much easier. Plus if they stop to try to repair it, it's an easier kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not a good idea. It's a waste of time like the post above you said. And you don't need dim lights to ambush. -edit being nice here...
I would like to see power node loss actually result in the lack of lights. No emergency red lights. Pitch black. Just make Marine flashlights more viable :)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would like to see power node loss actually result in the lack of lights. No emergency red lights. Pitch black. Just make Marine flashlights more viable<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, but only if AV doesn't impact on alien regeneration... :)
I absolutely love power nodes. As a skulk you get +1 point for parasiting them(at the cost of having them always show up on hive sight for your whole team, but thats a non-issue, as the point is well worth it) , and if you chomp on them for 30 seconds you get +15 more points. That's 16 points! Each!
<!--quoteo(post=1952447:date=Jul 18 2012, 11:54 PM:name={GGs} Chicken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ({GGs} Chicken @ Jul 18 2012, 11:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952447"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I absolutely love power nodes. As a skulk you get +1 point for parasiting them(at the cost of having them always show up on hive sight for your whole team, but thats a non-issue, as the point is well worth it) , and if you chomp on them for 30 seconds you get +15 more points. That's 16 points! Each!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In a point system that doesn't matter.. I can't tell if you're joking or not. Are you one of those people that will chomp on every power node they see rather than helping their team?
<!--quoteo(post=1952502:date=Jul 19 2012, 04:41 AM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Jul 19 2012, 04:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952502"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In a point system that doesn't matter.. I can't tell if you're joking or not. Are you one of those people that will chomp on every power node they see rather than helping their team?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hes being sarcastic
but its like what you said, the point system is suppose to show whos doing the most for the team, and chomping powernodes is doing nothing for your team, thus getting points for them is plain stupid.
Even building them as marines could stay in the game. They just cant be destroyed by damaging them anymore and instead break, if the nearest rt they're linked to goes down.
<!--quoteo(post=1952408:date=Jul 18 2012, 06:24 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jul 18 2012, 06:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952408"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Being told in a really obvious way where to place your structures is the complete opposite of a high learning curve...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really obvious to an experienced player, yes. It's another thing to add to the knowledge of the game...
Anyway, a power node being down has a major psychological effect as well that really gives aliens an advantage, even if its not something like a debuff or structure. A cysted out room with the emergency lights out is not a place most marines are going to just venture into, especially not alone. I think nodes build too fast but thats another story. They certainly aren't pointless in public games - which is just as important as competitive play, by the way.
<!--quoteo(post=1952522:date=Jul 19 2012, 01:38 PM:name=LPC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LPC @ Jul 19 2012, 01:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952522"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really don't see the problem with power-nodes, they don't harm game-play IMO, they add atmosphere, immersion and gameplay options.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Repeating myself: power nodes are problematic for several reasons, the main ones imo :
1) Regions that are under the control of power nodes are defined by a box in the map. There is all kind of problems at the boundary of two boxes, because it is unclear which power node is powering the area, if any. This also constrain severely map design, phase gate placement and creativity in general.
This is a fundamental problem with power nodes, and cannot be solved without changing completely the way they work.
2) Power nodes accumulate a lot of different function. Light switch, turret factory and "win button" in marine base, etc. These different functions require mutually exclusive balance; for example to work well as a turret factory (being able to disable turrets in a turret spammed area) the power node need to have relatively low hp. But then the "win button" in marine base become problematic.
Worse, some of the functions are bad. A weak point in turret spamed area is desirable but the utility of a win button in marine base is disputable, and power nodes close to RTs are useless at best.
A solution is to split the power node in their different function. Droppable lights by the commander, power packs as turret factory, big red win button in marine base, etc. So they can be balanced separately.
*
As for atmosphere and immersion I think the red lights looks really bad, mappers spent large amounts of time tweaking the lighting, anybody who did a bit of visual arts knows lighting is so critical. I do like the pitch black phase, but I think buildable lights that the commander can drop anywhere would be far superior in terms of immersion and map interaction, and would allow mappers to have dark areas on the map, since it can countered.
About gameplay options, they actually remove options for phase gate placement and forward, because it's problematic to build far from the power node. Taking into account the map flow, vents and geometry is much more interesting that just looking at the distance to the power node.
They do add one option when attacking marine base, but there is already many options there (attacking obs, ips, cc, ...) so their contribution is not very significant in this regard.
*
About the RT being the power node, it has the same problems 1) and 2).
1. there can easily be added an option to highlight which areas are powered by the node by for example selecting the node as a commander;
2.1 Turrets don't really need a power-button anymore since they are nerfed to a point where they can easily be taken out by the aliens, allthough I think they should be just a little thougher then they are now; or.... let them be this weak, but give them 360 degrees firing angle (would be awesome IMO)
2.2 IMO the power-node is not really a WIN-button anymore like it used to be, once down it can be repaired quite quickly. It just gives the aliens a big advantage. but this is counterable by marines by dropping power packs near the phase gate for example. makes for a really tense situation when the power is down, all-in-all the current HP/armor value seems good to me.
1. It's not only that you don't really know where the power is, it's also these positions are usually bad to place phase gates and such because they are far away for the power node. What has been done to solve this is to add power node a bit everywhere after a lot of play testing ("ho ###### my phase gate doesn't work lol!"). I did a bit of play testing for turtle and power nodes were always a pain in the ass.
I do agree with you on 2.1 and 2.2 but that's because power nodes are now mostly irrelevant due to no cost and fast building time, which is what some people were complaining about. They used to have these functions though.
I think it may be prudent to make it so powernodes somehow prevent cysts and creep (infestation) from advancing. This way, Aliens are forced to take out power nodes to advance. Then, once infestation is in an area where a powernode was, the marines must clear it out to get it back (Which could prove to be hard because its a pain to take out cysts. Maybe Marines just would have to re-establish power).
I just think it's way too easy for aliens to spread across maps, and way too hard for Marines. This is because of the powernode vs cyst concept. Cyst obviously wins.
I agree that power-node in a marine-base functioning as a big "I-win" button can be quite problematic in the equation for balancing and I don't think it is needed.
Someone else suggested it already, if they would also be linked to the command-center in the room it would be fine.
Yeah I also think spreading cysts is way to easy (who doesn't), it's the main reason aliens always have the advantage (75-25 ratio map control for aliens mostly) on bigger maps like mineshaft.
Death_by_bullets: in the early game all power nodes are still down so it wouldn't actually stop the aliens from cysting all over the place....
but on the other hand, marines could get behind enemy lines just to set up power nodes to stop aliens from expanding so rapidly without skulks nearby.
I say: +1
for mid-game cysting: maybe make an upgrade so that cysts are resistant to 'electricity' so that they can also be placed in powered areas.
<!--quoteo(post=1952416:date=Jul 18 2012, 03:45 PM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Jul 18 2012, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952416"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would like to see power node loss actually result in the lack of lights. No emergency red lights. Pitch black. Just make Marine flashlights more viable :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is the lighting system still a placeholder, or is it in its general end point? I remember the old system was dropped due to details in the maps going unnoticed by players when the lights are out, but to be honest, the new system rarely does justice to the lighting engine. It isn't until the lights are out that it really shows.
I'm not sure if it was ever mentioned, but I liked the idea that simple unbuilt rooms have the emergency lighting, as a neutral point, and any room that have infestation touching an unbuilt or destroyed node are in complete blackout. I'm not sure if this was ever the case in a previous build (as I've only been able to play the game recently), but I imagine it would give the aliens a nice home-field advantage similar to the marines and their sentry nests (and it would look neat, what with all the alien structures glowing).
--
If the power structure were to change, I'd prefer the idea of power nodes in non-rts rooms to overlapping power areas. The latter would allow marines an extra set of 'safe' rooms around to place sentries and other defenses, where as the former requires the marines to play a bit harder on map control (as it is now).
On a side note, even if my wish above for infestation-influenced lights isn't added, I still believe infestation should cover empty/destroyed power nodes at least. This would allow aliens a few extra seconds to reach the marines while they clear away the infestation for their phasegate-powering node, and keep the node from dropping if the marines are ninja-gating into a hive room (assuming they managed to find a infestation-clear build spot, anyway).
Has a power grid similar to the Protoss pylon control areas been discussed yet?
This would make marines able to build anywhere and also allow them to reinforce an area, like their main base, with multiple power nodes overlapping so there is no single "win button", but still weak points.
There could still be a place that a power node would be required to have the light go on and off
The control area would have to be relatively small to not make it so there is no way of cutting the power by spamming 50 nodes for the ips (i.e. 2-3 structures can fit).
Best off all, easy implementation since power packs already exist and would just need to have cost and heath balanced and to allow them to power multiple buildings
Comments
There needs to be an alert specific to important power nodes, just like the command station.
"PRIMARY POWER NODE UNDER ATTACK"
That would be more fun, no ?
As for the tech placement problem, I think adding the power pack placement system when placing structures near a power node would solve this. That is, a blue line from the power node to the structure to be placed. The blue grid shows where you're legitimately able to place a structure; the blue line shows you which item (power node or power pack) will power your structure.
The fallacy is that an extra option (the power) leads to more choice/complexity/interest. In reality, if that option is overwhelmingly superior, the level of choice plummets.
Also marine rate of expansion is slower than Aliens because people have to build both RT and powernode. Alien lifeforms don't have to build anything all they have to do is kill the marines.
There is no doubt that the early game decides the course of the whole game, so if you don't have really good marines then you chances of winning are pretty small at best.
Sometimes, the powernode is situated in a place where its extremely difficult to defend either at the same time.
My issue is just that Aliens gain territory so easily. Why not prevent cysts or infestation from spreading into areas that have power nodes? This way you increase the usefulness and importance of the power node to gain territory. Also, why not have the CC power structures within a certain distance from it? This way you can have a small backup in case your main base node gets hit.
People learned to build pg just in front of the power node; pg in crossroad? in the middle close to the power, in flight control? close to the power node, the only place in summit where you don't build it close to the power node is dc because of the geometry.
In this situation the alien don't really have any choice of target, you attack the pg so you can also chomp phasing marines.
If the marines build far away from the power node then the alien can just take down the power.
In the end it just limits the amount of location where it is viable to build a phase gate, is that really interesting ?
In this situation the alien don't really have any choice of target, you attack the pg so you can also chomp phasing marines.
If the marines build far away from the power node then the alien can just take down the power.
In the end it just limits the amount of location where it is viable to build a phase gate, is that really interesting ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You say it limits the amount of locations, I say it provides places where a "good" experienced player will place a PG and where an inexperienced person would place a PG. I enjoy high learning curves with a high-skill pay off. Things like laying your buildings out quickly and smartly will help you win - thats how I think games should be. Then again, dropping a factory ON TOP of the powernode should probably be changed =p
They are free for marines to rebuild, aliens have no incentive to destroy them, infact they are a time sink for aliens to destroy, and they leave you vulnerable when you are chomping them down because you are usually a sitting duck facing a wall.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's always a good idea to destroy the power nodes of areas that marines will try to travel through or attack, because it makes ambushing them that muche easier. Plus if they stop to try to repair it, it's an easier kill.
It's not a good idea. It's a waste of time like the post above you said. And you don't need dim lights to ambush. -edit being nice here...
Sure, but only if AV doesn't impact on alien regeneration... :)
In a point system that doesn't matter.. I can't tell if you're joking or not. Are you one of those people that will chomp on every power node they see rather than helping their team?
hes being sarcastic
but its like what you said, the point system is suppose to show whos doing the most for the team, and chomping powernodes is doing nothing for your team, thus getting points for them is plain stupid.
also: having the choice of taking 4 buildings down in 1 go or chomping 4 buildings seperately makes for an interesting choice if you ask me...
I really don't see the problem with power-nodes, they don't harm game-play IMO, they add atmosphere, immersion and gameplay options.
Even building them as marines could stay in the game. They just cant be destroyed by damaging them anymore and instead break, if the nearest rt they're linked to goes down.
Really obvious to an experienced player, yes. It's another thing to add to the knowledge of the game...
Anyway, a power node being down has a major psychological effect as well that really gives aliens an advantage, even if its not something like a debuff or structure. A cysted out room with the emergency lights out is not a place most marines are going to just venture into, especially not alone. I think nodes build too fast but thats another story. They certainly aren't pointless in public games - which is just as important as competitive play, by the way.
Repeating myself: power nodes are problematic for several reasons, the main ones imo :
1) Regions that are under the control of power nodes are defined by a box in the map. There is all kind of problems at the boundary of two boxes, because it is unclear which power node is powering the area, if any. This also constrain severely map design, phase gate placement and creativity in general.
This is a fundamental problem with power nodes, and cannot be solved without changing completely the way they work.
2) Power nodes accumulate a lot of different function. Light switch, turret factory and "win button" in marine base, etc. These different functions require mutually exclusive balance; for example to work well as a turret factory (being able to disable turrets in a turret spammed area) the power node need to have relatively low hp. But then the "win button" in marine base become problematic.
Worse, some of the functions are bad. A weak point in turret spamed area is desirable but the utility of a win button in marine base is disputable, and power nodes close to RTs are useless at best.
A solution is to split the power node in their different function. Droppable lights by the commander, power packs as turret factory, big red win button in marine base, etc. So they can be balanced separately.
*
As for atmosphere and immersion I think the red lights looks really bad, mappers spent large amounts of time tweaking the lighting, anybody who did a bit of visual arts knows lighting is so critical. I do like the pitch black phase, but I think buildable lights that the commander can drop anywhere would be far superior in terms of immersion and map interaction, and would allow mappers to have dark areas on the map, since it can countered.
About gameplay options, they actually remove options for phase gate placement and forward, because it's problematic to build far from the power node. Taking into account the map flow, vents and geometry is much more interesting that just looking at the distance to the power node.
They do add one option when attacking marine base, but there is already many options there (attacking obs, ips, cc, ...) so their contribution is not very significant in this regard.
*
About the RT being the power node, it has the same problems 1) and 2).
1. there can easily be added an option to highlight which areas are powered by the node by for example selecting the node as a commander;
2.1 Turrets don't really need a power-button anymore since they are nerfed to a point where they can easily be taken out by the aliens, allthough I think they should be just a little thougher then they are now; or.... let them be this weak, but give them 360 degrees firing angle (would be awesome IMO)
2.2 IMO the power-node is not really a WIN-button anymore like it used to be, once down it can be repaired quite quickly. It just gives the aliens a big advantage. but this is counterable by marines by dropping power packs near the phase gate for example. makes for a really tense situation when the power is down, all-in-all the current HP/armor value seems good to me.
just my 3 cents, greeetings,
I do agree with you on 2.1 and 2.2 but that's because power nodes are now mostly irrelevant due to no cost and fast building time, which is what some people were complaining about. They used to have these functions though.
I just think it's way too easy for aliens to spread across maps, and way too hard for Marines. This is because of the powernode vs cyst concept. Cyst obviously wins.
Someone else suggested it already, if they would also be linked to the command-center in the room it would be fine.
Death_by_bullets: in the early game all power nodes are still down so it wouldn't actually stop the aliens from cysting all over the place....
but on the other hand, marines could get behind enemy lines just to set up power nodes to stop aliens from expanding so rapidly without skulks nearby.
I say: +1
for mid-game cysting: maybe make an upgrade so that cysts are resistant to 'electricity' so that they can also be placed in powered areas.
Is the lighting system still a placeholder, or is it in its general end point? I remember the old system was dropped due to details in the maps going unnoticed by players when the lights are out, but to be honest, the new system rarely does justice to the lighting engine. It isn't until the lights are out that it really shows.
I'm not sure if it was ever mentioned, but I liked the idea that simple unbuilt rooms have the emergency lighting, as a neutral point, and any room that have infestation touching an unbuilt or destroyed node are in complete blackout. I'm not sure if this was ever the case in a previous build (as I've only been able to play the game recently), but I imagine it would give the aliens a nice home-field advantage similar to the marines and their sentry nests (and it would look neat, what with all the alien structures glowing).
--
If the power structure were to change, I'd prefer the idea of power nodes in non-rts rooms to overlapping power areas. The latter would allow marines an extra set of 'safe' rooms around to place sentries and other defenses, where as the former requires the marines to play a bit harder on map control (as it is now).
On a side note, even if my wish above for infestation-influenced lights isn't added, I still believe infestation should cover empty/destroyed power nodes at least. This would allow aliens a few extra seconds to reach the marines while they clear away the infestation for their phasegate-powering node, and keep the node from dropping if the marines are ninja-gating into a hive room (assuming they managed to find a infestation-clear build spot, anyway).
This would make marines able to build anywhere and also allow them to reinforce an area, like their main base, with multiple power nodes overlapping so there is no single "win button", but still weak points.
There could still be a place that a power node would be required to have the light go on and off
The control area would have to be relatively small to not make it so there is no way of cutting the power by spamming 50 nodes for the ips (i.e. 2-3 structures can fit).
Best off all, easy implementation since power packs already exist and would just need to have cost and heath balanced and to allow them to power multiple buildings