dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1953079:date=Jul 22 2012, 01:13 PM:name=JuCCi-PuCCi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JuCCi-PuCCi @ Jul 22 2012, 01:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953079"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All-In FTW :) Be sure to join and check out the site also @ teamall-in.net<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why noone can find the voterandomall in the modsection? I ask you about that some time ago. Answer: This need more testing. Seems to run fine, so where can we find it?
I thought this is an community, so, give it to us and dont praise it as an super feature on your servers.
Bicsum or another coder can implement this too for us if i ask. But why, we have a funtional mod.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
Ok, here we have an working version from dghelneshi, details can be found here: <a href="http://www.duplexgaming.co.uk/downloads/mods/106/tournament_mod_+_randomteams/" target="_blank">http://www.duplexgaming.co.uk/downloads/mo..._+_randomteams/</a>
thx man
Really sad that you have to spend an hr of work as we had an functional version.
Vote-random is fine as long as it's taking place <i>before</i> games start. I think it's good to give the server the option to play what the most amount of people want to play via mapvotes and randomteam votes.
Autobalance after the game starts is not good in a game like NS2. There are advantage buildups and losing teams tend to RR or quit out. The winning team should never be punished for winning. No one from the advantaged team should be forced onto the losing team after helping to secure the advantage for their team. Late joiners should be forced to join either the numerically disadvantaged side or wait in the RR, though.
Before even going to autobalance we should try retaining your res upon teamswitch. Guess if a skulks wants to balance teams with 75 res on his bank-account.
Vote for random teams before every match starts. Easiest solution.
Still the possibility of a team being stacked due to chance, but at least its due to chance and not purposeful stacking. Most of the time the good players will get spread between the two teams.
Even teams make NS so MUCH better because it'd actually require a good commander and teamwork. Lately most of the games I've played have been won within the first two minutes and then its just a ROFLSTOMP.
Have an ELO system display a skill score for each player, which are then added up and averaged out upon joining a team and displayed for everyone to see. It would then be clear which teams are stacked and how much they are stacked by and possibly debuff the stacked team some way (obviously it would have to be an option which could be tweaked/turned off ... maybe even a server mod). There could also be a separate score for commander ability, that way you can see who the good commanders are
Have an ELO system display a skill score for each player, which are then added up and averaged out upon joining a team and displayed for everyone to see. It would then be clear which teams are stacked and how much they are stacked by and possibly debuff the stacked team some way (obviously it would have to be an option which could be tweaked/turned off ... maybe even a server mod). There could also be a separate score for commander ability, that way you can see who the good commanders are<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Handicaps should absolutely not exist unless instituted by the player receiving the handicap. A third party, or admin, punishing someone for being good by lowering their damage or lowering their pres gain or anything else is not something that any server should even consider.
I'm not against ELO displays of "skill" (though it really doesn't show "skill"), but they're incredibly arbitrary and meaningless. As long as it's just a display, there's nothing harmful about any ranking/rating system that anyone wants to puke up.
Whel problemis more there people atm want a challange and go marines because aliens are horrible op and easy to play.
I mostly play with my friends have good time and we choose marines mostly because aliens are to easy to play.
But its annoying when your friends play 1 side and every one wants go that side bevause group of players works together and wins games. Cba though mostly i lates person try get in the team and server let me make u fair teams and put me in wishing team anyway but this visa versa.
Me an my friends want alien everyone goes alien we want go marines every one wants go marines dunno why not like we very good but we got lots of fun together not matter we win or not thats what couts for me not winning.
Forcig people wont solve the problem though, friends want play with friends, we chiose a side if people all goes that side we take the other instead, but more annoying when we deside join other team every one going there kinda annoyig.
O and i do t like to be forced to play something i dont want to, this wont improve he fun for me and more likely i will stop playing and do something els, always been this way also with other games like in tf i play with friend and get forced to get to other team me and random friend just leave and join somewhere els to have our
Forcing people is bad for the game and for the fun. Unless you like to be put in corner with no free will but who like that?
<!--quoteo(post=1953380:date=Jul 24 2012, 09:22 AM:name=-Azona-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Azona- @ Jul 24 2012, 09:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953380"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unless you like to be put in corner with no free will but who like that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, no one puts baby in a corner, so why should we be put in a corner?!
Therefore, I vote <b>nay</b> to corners, and yea to freedom, justice and liberty!
<!--quoteo(post=1953380:date=Jul 23 2012, 11:22 PM:name=-Azona-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Azona- @ Jul 23 2012, 11:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953380"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whel problemis more there people atm want a challange and go marines because aliens are horrible op and easy to play.
I mostly play with my friends have good time and we choose marines mostly because aliens are to easy to play.
But its annoying when your friends play 1 side and every one wants go that side bevause group of players works together and wins games. Cba though mostly i lates person try get in the team and server let me make u fair teams and put me in wishing team anyway but this visa versa.
Me an my friends want alien everyone goes alien we want go marines every one wants go marines dunno why not like we very good but we got lots of fun together not matter we win or not thats what couts for me not winning.
Forcig people wont solve the problem though, friends want play with friends, we chiose a side if people all goes that side we take the other instead, but more annoying when we deside join other team every one going there kinda annoyig.
O and i do t like to be forced to play something i dont want to, this wont improve he fun for me and more likely i will stop playing and do something els, always been this way also with other games like in tf i play with friend and get forced to get to other team me and random friend just leave and join somewhere els to have our
Forcing people is bad for the game and for the fun. Unless you like to be put in corner with no free will but who like that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is that <i>really</i> the best you can do? Why would you write that much and leave it looking that <i>bad</i>?
So when you go play football, soccer, field hockey, softball (haha, who am I kidding, all you goons only play video games); what the ape do you do? bring you and you're best friend's clones to play against?
Obviously random shouldn't be forced every round in every server. Obviously, that will never happen, as the developers of this game have openly devoted themselves to supporting modding. So if you're worried about that, well, drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr I'm saying the <b>best</b> servers will be servers with a vote shuffle option to at least <b>attempt</b> to break up "premade vs pub" crapshoots. So far, the most fun I have had is in the All-In server.
ELO systems are terrible and I would never burden a small development team with trying to develop such a convoluted mess (instead of you know, working on the game). Ever since SCII and LoL took off every time something's not balanced people just start going ELO!?!?! ELO!!!! MAKE DAT ELlloo!!0!
Yeah, well, motherfracking, <i>how</i> bro; <i>HOW</i>. KD/R? Useless. Wins? Carry or quit. Count ragequits? Yay we're back to punishing people for having real lives! This is an FPS. No FPS has an effective ranked matchmaking system because there is no effective way for a computer to correctly evaluate skill in such a system. Even when they try, it just becomes a way of segregating all the new players such that skilled players can smurf out and have fun exploiting the system. Terrible idea.
Anyway, the random voting mod used on the All-In servers seems to work fine for balancing teams. You still get just as many team stacks, but people seem to feel that that's okay for some reason as long as a computer does the stacking rather than players.
<!--quoteo(post=1953464:date=Jul 24 2012, 10:56 AM:name=Deity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deity @ Jul 24 2012, 10:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953464"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Elo is a guy's name. It's not an acronym so you don't need to capitalize every letter.
Anyway, the random voting mod used on the All-In servers seems to work fine for balancing teams. You still get just as many team stacks, but people seem to feel that that's okay for some reason as long as a computer does the stacking rather than players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's cool, I didn't know that.
Regardless, none of that would compensate for the level of nuance in shooters. There are too many caveats. Shooter rank systems almost <i>always</i> boil down to "who played more hours" as a result.
It is fine when the computer does the stacking because (newsflash) it isn't the stacking that's the problem; but the team stacking 5, 6, 7+ games in a row that's the problem. If one team stacks, they can easily just trash the other team in ~10 minutes for two hours straight and that's pretty terrible for anybody- completely locks down a server for anybody new and trying to enjoy a game.
A lot of people are complaining about it this build, but also keep in mind that this build the marines need to play damn near perfect to win against even an average alien team.
Also consider there are a ton of new players on the servers right now, and the majority of them only want to play marines because it's more familiar.
What tends to happen, and it's happened to me several times, is a few vet players will go rines and a few will go aliens, but the skill difference in the other players doesn't near equality. All skill lvls the same, and vets split up != fair match up.
So the few vets who did go marines will try to be informative to the newer players, but except for a few rare cases, most new players seem to already think they're experts. This gets really darn frustrating, and doesn't encourage (at least for me) the desire to want to help them anymore.
I guess my suggestions from all of this, at least for b214, is that if you get rofflestomped as marines, the teams aren't necessarily stacked. Also, encourage new players to try their hand at aliens first. I personally find them more fun to play, and their playstyle allows for a little bit of rambo action, which should suit less experienced players more.
- Let players join freely until the game countdown begins. Don't show them under a team on the scoreboard before then. - Once it starts, auto-random everyone in the readyroom who isn't AFK(i.e. has moved recently)
That should resolve the worst of the intentional stacking, and waffling on teams causing the game to start with only a few people.
<!--quoteo(post=1953558:date=Jul 25 2012, 04:55 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jul 25 2012, 04:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953558"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Once it starts, auto-random everyone in the readyroom who isn't AFK(i.e. has moved recently)
That should resolve the worst of the intentional stacking, and waffling on teams causing the game to start with only a few people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you like teams with many players who are AFK? forcing readyroomers into a team will make many ###### games. You know, you will lose, when half of your team is peeing for the first 2 minutes of the game. It is much better if you only start the game when 70% or 80% of the players on the server are not in the ready room anymore.
Since there was a thread before talking about the exact same thing, I'll just post my reply from there here:
<!--quoteo(post=1952292:date=Jul 18 2012, 11:04 AM:name=Keldorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keldorn @ Jul 18 2012, 11:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952292"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do keep in mind that some people just like to play exclusively as marines or exclusively as aliens, this isn't teamfortress or whatever where the game is symmetrical. I'm not approving on teamstacking when it is a skill related choice, but I can see why some people just prefer one race over the other and that might lead to teamstacking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And imho, just wait until the performance goes up and all the features are in (Exo !) before fine tuning any aspect of balance (assuming that teamstacking is partly a balance thing).
If I want to play a particular race (not for its balance but for its actual racial features) and get forced on the opposite team, I'll just join a different server instead of playing on a team for 30 min orso against my will. The result is that you'll get uneven teams, which I assume would force people to join the opposite team yet again. Even more grief.
Comments
Why noone can find the voterandomall in the modsection?
I ask you about that some time ago. Answer: This need more testing.
Seems to run fine, so where can we find it?
I thought this is an community, so, give it to us and dont praise it as an super feature on your servers.
Bicsum or another coder can implement this too for us if i ask. But why, we have a funtional mod.
For really fair teams, we need matchmaking and elo.
thx man
Really sad that you have to spend an hr of work as we had an functional version.
Autobalance after the game starts is not good in a game like NS2. There are advantage buildups and losing teams tend to RR or quit out. The winning team should never be punished for winning. No one from the advantaged team should be forced onto the losing team after helping to secure the advantage for their team. Late joiners should be forced to join either the numerically disadvantaged side or wait in the RR, though.
Autobalance is bad.
Still the possibility of a team being stacked due to chance, but at least its due to chance and not purposeful stacking. Most of the time the good players will get spread between the two teams.
Even teams make NS so MUCH better because it'd actually require a good commander and teamwork. Lately most of the games I've played have been won within the first two minutes and then its just a ROFLSTOMP.
You are very creative.
Have an ELO system display a skill score for each player, which are then added up and averaged out upon joining a team and displayed for everyone to see. It would then be clear which teams are stacked and how much they are stacked by and possibly debuff the stacked team some way (obviously it would have to be an option which could be tweaked/turned off ... maybe even a server mod). There could also be a separate score for commander ability, that way you can see who the good commanders are
Have an ELO system display a skill score for each player, which are then added up and averaged out upon joining a team and displayed for everyone to see. It would then be clear which teams are stacked and how much they are stacked by and possibly debuff the stacked team some way (obviously it would have to be an option which could be tweaked/turned off ... maybe even a server mod). There could also be a separate score for commander ability, that way you can see who the good commanders are<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Handicaps should absolutely not exist unless instituted by the player receiving the handicap. A third party, or admin, punishing someone for being good by lowering their damage or lowering their pres gain or anything else is not something that any server should even consider.
I'm not against ELO displays of "skill" (though it really doesn't show "skill"), but they're incredibly arbitrary and meaningless. As long as it's just a display, there's nothing harmful about any ranking/rating system that anyone wants to puke up.
I mostly play with my friends have good time and we choose marines mostly because aliens are to easy to play.
But its annoying when your friends play 1 side and every one wants go that side bevause group of players works together and wins games. Cba though mostly i lates person try get in the team and server let me make u fair teams and put me in wishing team anyway but this visa versa.
Me an my friends want alien everyone goes alien we want go marines every one wants go marines dunno why not like we very good but we got lots of fun together not matter we win or not thats what couts for me not winning.
Forcig people wont solve the problem though, friends want play with friends, we chiose a side if people all goes that side we take the other instead, but more annoying when we deside join other team every one going there kinda annoyig.
O and i do t like to be forced to play something i dont want to, this wont improve he fun for me and more likely i will stop playing and do something els, always been this way also with other games like in tf i play with friend and get forced to get to other team me and random friend just leave and join somewhere els to have our
Forcing people is bad for the game and for the fun. Unless you like to be put in corner with no free will but who like that?
Well, no one puts baby in a corner, so why should we be put in a corner?!
Therefore, I vote <b>nay</b> to corners, and yea to freedom, justice and liberty!
I mostly play with my friends have good time and we choose marines mostly because aliens are to easy to play.
But its annoying when your friends play 1 side and every one wants go that side bevause group of players works together and wins games. Cba though mostly i lates person try get in the team and server let me make u fair teams and put me in wishing team anyway but this visa versa.
Me an my friends want alien everyone goes alien we want go marines every one wants go marines dunno why not like we very good but we got lots of fun together not matter we win or not thats what couts for me not winning.
Forcig people wont solve the problem though, friends want play with friends, we chiose a side if people all goes that side we take the other instead, but more annoying when we deside join other team every one going there kinda annoyig.
O and i do t like to be forced to play something i dont want to, this wont improve he fun for me and more likely i will stop playing and do something els, always been this way also with other games like in tf i play with friend and get forced to get to other team me and random friend just leave and join somewhere els to have our
Forcing people is bad for the game and for the fun. Unless you like to be put in corner with no free will but who like that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is that <i>really</i> the best you can do? Why would you write that much and leave it looking that <i>bad</i>?
So when you go play football, soccer, field hockey, softball (haha, who am I kidding, all you goons only play video games); what the ape do you do? bring you and you're best friend's clones to play against?
Obviously random shouldn't be forced every round in every server. Obviously, that will never happen, as the developers of this game have openly devoted themselves to supporting modding. So if you're worried about that, well, drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr I'm saying the <b>best</b> servers will be servers with a vote shuffle option to at least <b>attempt</b> to break up "premade vs pub" crapshoots. So far, the most fun I have had is in the All-In server.
ELO systems are terrible and I would never burden a small development team with trying to develop such a convoluted mess (instead of you know, working on the game). Ever since SCII and LoL took off every time something's not balanced people just start going ELO!?!?! ELO!!!! MAKE DAT ELlloo!!0!
Yeah, well, motherfracking, <i>how</i> bro; <i>HOW</i>. KD/R? Useless. Wins? Carry or quit. Count ragequits? Yay we're back to punishing people for having real lives! This is an FPS. No FPS has an effective ranked matchmaking system because there is no effective way for a computer to correctly evaluate skill in such a system. Even when they try, it just becomes a way of segregating all the new players such that skilled players can smurf out and have fun exploiting the system. Terrible idea.
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system</a>
Anyway, the random voting mod used on the All-In servers seems to work fine for balancing teams. You still get just as many team stacks, but people seem to feel that that's okay for some reason as long as a computer does the stacking rather than players.
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system</a>
Anyway, the random voting mod used on the All-In servers seems to work fine for balancing teams. You still get just as many team stacks, but people seem to feel that that's okay for some reason as long as a computer does the stacking rather than players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's cool, I didn't know that.
Regardless, none of that would compensate for the level of nuance in shooters. There are too many caveats. Shooter rank systems almost <i>always</i> boil down to "who played more hours" as a result.
It is fine when the computer does the stacking because (newsflash) it isn't the stacking that's the problem; but the team stacking 5, 6, 7+ games in a row that's the problem. If one team stacks, they can easily just trash the other team in ~10 minutes for two hours straight and that's pretty terrible for anybody- completely locks down a server for anybody new and trying to enjoy a game.
Also consider there are a ton of new players on the servers right now, and the majority of them only want to play marines because it's more familiar.
What tends to happen, and it's happened to me several times, is a few vet players will go rines and a few will go aliens, but the skill difference in the other players doesn't near equality. All skill lvls the same, and vets split up != fair match up.
So the few vets who did go marines will try to be informative to the newer players, but except for a few rare cases, most new players seem to already think they're experts. This gets really darn frustrating, and doesn't encourage (at least for me) the desire to want to help them anymore.
I guess my suggestions from all of this, at least for b214, is that if you get rofflestomped as marines, the teams aren't necessarily stacked. Also, encourage new players to try their hand at aliens first. I personally find them more fun to play, and their playstyle allows for a little bit of rambo action, which should suit less experienced players more.
- Let players join freely until the game countdown begins. Don't show them under a team on the scoreboard before then.
- Once it starts, auto-random everyone in the readyroom who isn't AFK(i.e. has moved recently)
That should resolve the worst of the intentional stacking, and waffling on teams causing the game to start with only a few people.
That should resolve the worst of the intentional stacking, and waffling on teams causing the game to start with only a few people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you like teams with many players who are AFK? forcing readyroomers into a team will make many ###### games. You know, you will lose, when half of your team is peeing for the first 2 minutes of the game. It is much better if you only start the game when 70% or 80% of the players on the server are not in the ready room anymore.
<!--quoteo(post=1952292:date=Jul 18 2012, 11:04 AM:name=Keldorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keldorn @ Jul 18 2012, 11:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952292"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do keep in mind that some people just like to play exclusively as marines or exclusively as aliens, this isn't teamfortress or whatever where the game is symmetrical. I'm not approving on teamstacking when it is a skill related choice, but I can see why some people just prefer one race over the other and that might lead to teamstacking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And imho, just wait until the performance goes up and all the features are in (Exo !) before fine tuning any aspect of balance (assuming that teamstacking is partly a balance thing).
If I want to play a particular race (not for its balance but for its actual racial features) and get forced on the opposite team, I'll just join a different server instead of playing on a team for 30 min orso against my will. The result is that you'll get uneven teams, which I assume would force people to join the opposite team yet again. Even more grief.
Auto teaming is not the answer.