IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited July 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1954379:date=Jul 27 2012, 10:00 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jul 27 2012, 10:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954379"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're just begging the question, if you put yourself in the position of someone who think that hydra costing pres is a good thing, you'll see from this perspective that proposing to make hydra costing pres is a constructive and helpful suggestion, and that defending free hydra is actually being not cooperative.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, sorry Yuuki but that fallacy does not apply considering that i am not saying "Free hydras work because they implicitly work." In fact I have ONLY said the opposite: that they <b>require adjustment to work!!</b> (just like pres hydras.. sigh..) And i also have never said the opposite: that pres hydras dont work because they cost pres. I have posted too many pages worth of arguments and bullet points on why, months ago, and i can link you the threads if you wish to review.
<i>I am saying</i>: "Free hydras are the intentional design of the creative director of this product. Considering this, can you come up with any suggestions on how to implement them as such in a better form than what is used currently?"
Your edit suggesting Biscum's mod is a great example of what i am looking for - why cant this thread be filled with things like that? The Nano-spam + Medspam thread was FULL of helpful ideas after i asked to work within the confines of keeping nanoshield on marines??
Thats a pretty crap stance to take IMO, there are plently of ideas that Charlie has had for the game that just dont play as well as they might sound/look initally... Thats why things are tried and changed/tweaked and changed back too is it not? I think free hydras has been tried and personally i DONT like the gameplay of it as there is no reason to kill those hydras, espcially if the gorge is around. He can easily redrop and rebuild them. That coupled with the fact that three hydras can basically insta-kill a marine that rushes the gorge unless he gets some serious medspam is why I think they are broken. The only way you can realistically kill a gorge early game is by catching him out of position by a decent amount, or by rushing with a large amount of marines (which 1 skulk could easily clean up).
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited July 2012
A crap stance is asking for ideas to adjust the implementation? You do realize how many things have been adjusted to even work at all? And how often these came at the suggestion of the community?
If you cant provide an idea, its okay. I am not expecting everyone to be able to brainstorm like those fellas in I&S. I get that those who cannot do this resort to the last thing they know worked: costing pres. (despite the issues it caused, which they may not have ever noticed or known about) this is not a bad thing.
But that doesn't mean its impossible to come up with helpful ideas within these confines - if you think they dont work as implemented, its because they dont. But neither did hundreds of other things before adjustments were made. And yes, sometimes the lerk BB just doesnt work.. and we revert.
<b>But we haven't made a single adjustment to free hydras since their implementation.....</b> So i am just gonna have to say that asking for ideas or suggestions to attempt an adjustment <i>before </i>abandonment, <b>isn't a crap stance. </b> Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
<!--quoteo(post=1954305:date=Jul 27 2012, 03:14 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 27 2012, 03:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954305"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a resource game - but fade swipe and skulk bite dont cost pres, so neither do hydras. I know you dislike this answer and you want to call them defensive buildings.. but were all just gonna have to move on from this point with the understanding that they are usable weapons as the <b>gorge steps away from the old commander role of ns1.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hydras are far more similar to mines than to swipe or bite. And mines DO cost pres.
<!--quoteo(post=1954344:date=Jul 27 2012, 05:30 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 27 2012, 05:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954344"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like I said, the only feedback since Charlie said they were here to stay in that Q n A video has been to revert it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Charlie has said that before, about much more important features - like the resource model. Didn't stop him from changing them eventually, anyway. As long as people believe pres-Hyrdas work better than free ones, there is really no point in stopping to argue for them. It's not like adding a resource cost is a major programming task.
<!--quoteo(post=1954427:date=Jul 27 2012, 09:20 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 27 2012, 09:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954427"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But that doesn't mean its impossible to come up with helpful ideas within these confines - if you think they dont work as implemented, its because they dont. But neither did hundreds of other things before adjustments were made. And yes, sometimes the lerk BB just doesnt work.. and we revert.
<b>But we haven't made a single adjustment to free hydras since their implementation.....</b> So i am just gonna have to say that asking for ideas or suggestions to attempt an adjustment <i>before </i>abandonment, <b>isn't a crap stance. </b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i><b>We</b></i> revert? <i><b>We</b></i> haven't made a single adjustment? You don't think being a playtester makes you part of UWE now, do you?
Lets make gorges cost 0 p.res, hydras cost 5 p.res and remove the 3 hydra limit.
Lets see how fast you cry about hydra spam then.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hydras are far more similar to mines than to swipe or bite. And mines DO cost pres.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're not required to "upgrade" your marine to use mines. Gorge requires an initial purchase of 10 p.res, so each initial hydra theoretically costs 3.33 p.res each.
Hydras do cost p.res, just not in a system similar to mines.
You want hyrdas to cost p.res again? See what I typed above the quote and get back to me.
It's insulting to behave as if we haven't given this thought or that asking to revert something is lazy. Your comparison of hydras and abilities is utterly and laughably bogus, the accusation that the community hasn't tried is totally false and the premise that we even <i>should</i> seek a solution is misguided. If we, as individuals, believe that hydras should cost resources then its potentially highly counter-productive to offer solutions within what we think to be a broken framework. Sure, we could turn our attention to trying to fix free hydras but why would we (irrespective of our stance that there are fundamental problems), when this might be construed as support for free hydras more generally? Our mission is to revert a bad change and its sometimes a very calculated decision to not offer advice on how to improve something that shouldn't be there to begin with. We hope that the wide dissent will make a difference, as it did with energy for example.
(Btw, pointing to cysts as the best "non-reverted" feature is pretty funny. It still needs vast improvement and I still don't see anything remotely close to the creative strategies for aliens that existed in NS1.)
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1954221:date=Jul 27 2012, 02:09 AM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Jul 27 2012, 02:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954221"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have a helpful suggestion based around keeping hydras free. Don't This is a resource model based game.. So free anything, even air, does not fit. the end, thank you, good bye, etc etc etc. Another one, its impossible to balance for both teams without making them entirely useless. In reply to above post. 10 res hydras was the middle ground 5 res is way too cheap 15-20 is the 'extreme' land. Where you would have 5 res hydras being useless, 10 being ok, and 15-20 being extremely useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> NS2 has free spawns, free basic classes/weapons, free healing and ammo (regen/energy and armory), free vision/flashlights, free passive obs sight/shade cloak, free crag heal, free sentry/whip attack, and so on. If these can be balanced, then I think free hydras can be balanced too.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited July 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1954461:date=Jul 27 2012, 03:00 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jul 27 2012, 03:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954461"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the premise that we even <i>should</i> seek a solution is misguided. a very calculated decision to not offer advice on how to improve something<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That about sums it up for me.
Like i said, this has been beaten to death. I see the same crowd making the same arguments from months ago - i am not here to beat this dead horse again or get into a conversation about semantics or distinctions in what you feel certain mechanics should be or shouldn't be. Go on with your bad self and talk amongst yourselves about such a thing all over again - <u>I'm not here for that, i've already asked you move on from seeking this with me.</u>
All i've asked is for suggestions to work within the constraints given, and if for some reason you cannot add a disclaimer such as "I do not support free hydras, but if they stay they should at least..." then thats your opinion and like i said you dont have to contribute to ideas like those other guys in I&S did, you can stick to your opinion and then get mad at me all over again about mine, seeking confrontation. But it doesnt change the fact that i will be seeking ideas and solutions for said issue from those willing to contribute. Your offense to such a thing is your own issue, I'm sorry.
I'm amazed at the grasp some of you have demonstrated in the past page alone, seeking an argument or a justification. I am not here for that and have clearly stated such. Those who replied like that can't or won't offer feedback within a given constraint and the most you can do is a) be insulting b) seek confrontation c)laugh.
<b>And that just tells me i should head to the I&S section and not bother around these parts for such requests. Thanks.</b>
@raza Go look up posts from me before i was a PT (2011) i said we constantly. Besides the general use of the term, i.e. "We tried that already" amongst peers, you should use it too, you're contributing to a work in progress. ::rolls eyes:: quit looking for something that ain't there.
<!--quoteo(post=1954464:date=Jul 27 2012, 07:08 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jul 27 2012, 07:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954464"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 has free spawns, free basic classes/weapons, free healing and ammo (regen/energy and armory), free vision/flashlights, free passive obs sight/shade cloak, free crag heal, free sentry/whip attack, and so on. If these can be balanced, then I think free hydras can be balanced too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes all those are free... But they are not a AI and will attack on there own. Also none of those can be placed at the front lines at the start of a game to stop/slow down marines. That's the biggest issue. You can go to the front and keep replacing them. With no drawbacks at all.
Structures need to cost resources, otherwise the tedious process of killing a nonplayer is also made completely useless, a waste of time.
If you absolutely want them to be free, you need a cooldown of x seconds, where the x is the amount of time it takes to get 10 pres with the amount of rts you have at the time. Then add +10 pres cost to all the lifeforms upon dropping a hydra. Of course you could also go with hydras costing 10 pres but that would be too easy route.
Free structures = them being spammed endlessly = a waste of time and boring as hell. I just ignore the part of the map, or type quit in console when theres 4 gorges spamming that ######.
Just stop lording yourself over everything, ironhorse, it's annoying. People are perfectly entitled to express their dissatisfaction over some feature and you chiming in to speak on behalf of UWE is not helpful. How UWE wants to distil a thread like this is up to them and how strongly we feel about something is up to us.
You can quote me and imply that i'm some devious imp trying to trick the process but it's far more simple than that. I don't want to invest time trying to fix free hydras because I don't want hydras to be free.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited July 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1954470:date=Jul 27 2012, 03:26 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jul 27 2012, 03:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954470"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't want to invest time trying to fix free hydras because I don't want hydras to be free.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then don't answer my requests for ideas? Move on with your debates or complaints! Really simple solution, bud.
<b>Also, show me where i've spoken on behalf of UWE?</b> I'm no different than any of you. Anyone of you can paste a vid of charlie's response or quote a dev and their intentions, and then go ask for proper feedback and email it to charlie. Any sense of "lording" is entirely fabricated by yourself.. /done here
Or take your own advice and go to the I&S forums. Stop trying to steer every thread as if you're some golden king of forum etiquette and stop trying to belittle genuine feedback just because it says "that change was a mistake, let's go back".
Anyway, back to hydras. I think they shouldn't be free because:
1) killing free structures is highly unsatisfying 2) placing free structures doesn't feel like any investment 3) free hydras don't incur tradeoffs 4) balancing hydras in the early game is mutually exclusive with balancing them in the late game 5) it breaks away from the resource-based nature of the game 6) solutions like time and maturation usually emulate resources (unnecessarily) anyway 7) static defence structures intuitively cost something 8) the gorge should be fun and viable without spamming structures and free hydras affect this goal 9) find solutions is a waste of time because... 10) pres hydras work and have been shown to work 11) free hydras necessitates a cap and this severely limits the scope for hydra usage 12) arbitrary caps pretty much suck and, personally, feel like a cop-out 13) the hydras res-sink serves to stagger lifeforms and generally curb their prevalence 14) the added res-sink means a wider variety of strategies (instead of: "duh, wait for res -> lifeform)
wheather they are free or not, they should only be placed on infestation like everything else. why should they be the exception. This would then stop gorge rushes and they can still be used for offensive positions the commander is infesting to.
The biggest reason (as far as I can tell) that hydras were taken off pres was not because "costing pres was bad" it was because having no hard cap was bad. There was spam potential.
But why is the lack of a hard cap not a big problem for mines? They cost pres! Because a.) they are temporary, and b.) they have a self limiting factor of becoming worse when they are clustered together too much. Hydras could benefit from either of those features. What if they withered over time? What if they had friendly fire with each other? What if they run out of "ammo" and need to be "reloaded" by a gorge? What if they did a non-stacking DOT instead of direct damage, making mega-clusters of them less useful?
Mines are bar none the most similar feature of the game to hydras. Why are the features that make mines work so well never explored with hydras?
The "They were the only abilities that cost res!" argument is bonus, because now they're also the only structures that don't. They have similarities to both abilities and structures, so obviously there is gong to be some dissonance with regular game mechanics on one side or the other. Trading one for the other is just a preference, it doesn't "fix" anything.
I'm open-minded about fixes that don't involve them costing pres, but that doesn't mean I'm optimistic. I haven't really played much gorge since this change happened, and I probably won't unless something drastic happens.
While I'm fantasizing, yes, please make gorge structures infestation only, give back some kind of mini-cyst with a more unique model (it can come out at hive 2 if needed for balancing). <3
Basically the issue here is that there is a giant gulf between "free" and "not free", and the role of the Hydra will be determined by which side of that gulf it lies on. The purpose of the change was to differentiate the Gorge from the alien commander, shifting them more towards a combat/frontline support role and leaving the real infrastructure building to the comm. That's also why they were separated from infestation, why the build time got buffed this patch, etc. The alien team doesn't need two full time builders. The moment you make those structures cost res, Gorges will want to build them more defensively again to protect their investment and they just can't be used the same way.
<!--quoteo(post=1954508:date=Jul 27 2012, 09:09 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jul 27 2012, 09:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954508"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The purpose of the change was to differentiate the Gorge from the alien commander<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well, that was one of the reasons anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1954508:date=Jul 27 2012, 09:09 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jul 27 2012, 09:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954508"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->shifting them more towards a combat/frontline support role and leaving the real infrastructure building to the comm. That's also why they were separated from infestation, why the build time got buffed this patch, etc. The alien team doesn't need two full time builders. The moment you make those structures cost res, Gorges will want to build them more defensively again to protect their investment and they just can't be used the same way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I liked playing defensive gorge, and as a frequent khamm player, I love communicating with and backing up my gorges by dropping crags and such on their stuff. That's less sensible than it used to be. If gorge is supposed to be a front-line player now instead of a defender, I will really miss the old D-gorge, both as a gorge and as a khamm. But even so, he needs a lot of tweaking before he's a fun front-line class IMO.
If that's the way it's gotta be, I'd like to see hydras build much more quickly and maybe be weaker to compensate a-la mini-sentries in TF2. Perhaps a long-ish cooldown could be added to building them to avoid insta-3-hydras.
<!--quoteo(post=1954513:date=Jul 28 2012, 02:23 AM:name=serpico)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (serpico @ Jul 28 2012, 02:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954513"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->well, that was one of the reasons anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As far as I know the reasons officially given for the change were :
- It's simpler. - Hydra are abilities, abilities don't cost pres! - Hydra costing pres promotes high hydra count; free hydras solve this problem.
I think they cause major blockage to gameflow and allow aliens to fortify territory too easily, which snowballs into that 2nd hive advantage. Granted gorge healing this build is pretty whack, but its been like this to varying degrees since they were implemented. Early game as a marine is pretty much push untill you hit hydra wall, then camp till gl or whatever. Sure you can nano-med past and snipe the gorge but it seems more like a workaround for something which is inherently too much of a force multiplier for its cost. If you finally manage to kill them with rifles after a lot of blood, sweat, and welding, you'll probably advance a little bit more only to face another fresh hydra wall down the next few corners or something (they still grow pretty quick on infestation).
If we're sticking with free hydras they should probably be doing less damage, especially alpha damage. Each volley doing 60 dmg is pretty huge at a0. Dodging them is also kinda unintuitive although i guess thats not a big issue in the scheme of things.
Honestly I haven't actually seen gorge rushes yet, and I have been playing a fair bit recently. In previous patches I felt gorges were limited in their ability to support the team. With the zero resources required for hydras and clogs I have found gorges to be a lot more useful throughout the whole game. Area denial is an important role they play.
The problem I've seen while playing a gorge is that, assuming I wish to stay gorge, there is nothing for me to spend my resources on. Is there any resource sink that I've missed or would you be required to Fade or Onos to stay competitive?
Is it only me who gets the feeling <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiDXcVCOoU0&t=330" target="_blank">this video</a> is sort of propaganda in response to this thread? Watch from 5:30 (as the link already is set to) and especially 8:30 to 9:00. Strayans argument here is that this "TF2 engineer system" is very flexible in supporting your team and flexibly moving the hydras around as one pleases. Yes that is valid and true. BUT Not only are they very rarely used as intended in the video, there's a BUNCH of reasons why it's bad and why res-costing hydras is BETTER, that never get mentioned. Like mentioned, they're used in many (I hope) unintended ways where 1-2 gorges can overpower a whole marine team as been mentioned countless times. It allows 1-2 gorges to go rambo, without any tradeoff, and be good at it.
In NS1 similar things also happened, 2 gorges put down 4 OC, but here the OCs cost the gorges 20 res each (+ 10 each for gorging). If this was wiped out that's 2x30 res lost. Not to mention 6 hydras are like 3 times more lethal than 4 OC. In NS2 that's 2x10 res lost. There's <u>much less</u> res needed, 2/3 less, to accomplish something, say to be modest, 2x as good - that's 6 times more effective! <u>Plus</u> you could be much more bold with it since there's no tradeoff, <u>no invested res risk</u>! No wonder people are criticizing this...
As a fun sidenote here's Strayan playing NS1 as gorge happily placing countless OCs :D <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2udaSz_g7I" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2udaSz_g7I</a>
Suggestion I made before... <!--quoteo(post=1939412:date=May 28 2012, 02:30 AM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ May 28 2012, 02:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939412"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Keep the current hydras, BUT add a second type of hydra that IS strong and DOES cost res!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ...that should probably be changed to something like: Make the current hydras weaker so they become SUPPORT and are not viable offensively. THEN add a second type of hydra that IS strong and DOES cost res! Edit: Why not give kham the ability to build the NS1 OC (or similar)! Three types of projectile structures: OC is strong, groundbound, and moderate dmg, cost TR (or PR if gorges build them) Hydra is versatile in placement, medium strong, a little more dmg, cost PR Mini-Hydra is free, capped numbers and weak, tied to the gorge.
<!--quoteo(post=1954731:date=Jul 28 2012, 06:06 PM:name=EgoGamer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EgoGamer @ Jul 28 2012, 06:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954731"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem I've seen while playing a gorge is that, assuming I wish to stay gorge, there is nothing for me to spend my resources on. Is there any resource sink that I've missed or would you be required to Fade or Onos to stay competitive?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Res overflow. While you are capped at 100 res, everyone else on the team is getting more p.res per tick.
While I like free hydras over the res costing ones, I have to admit, that you got some good points here I finally want to comment.
<!--quoteo(post=1954475:date=Jul 28 2012, 12:43 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jul 28 2012, 12:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954475"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyway, back to hydras. I think they shouldn't be free because:
1) killing free structures is highly unsatisfying - <!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->Yeah ok, that is an argument I have to agree to.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> 2) placing free structures doesn't feel like any investment - <!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->I don't see a problem here. It will not get more fun when it feels like an investment<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> 3) free hydras don't incur tradeoffs - <!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->Tradeoffs are only needed for balance or to create more viable options. Res-costing hydras only create the new option to not build them due to the costs.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> 4) balancing hydras in the early game is mutually exclusive with balancing them in the late game - <!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->This hasn't to be true, they could get stronger with hives for example. But this isn't even a point against free hydras.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> 5) it breaks away from the resource-based nature of the game - <!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->Yeah, in one little aspect. If the kham had to upgrade the number of hydras gorges can build (from 2 to X) with t-res, they would be on the same level like a1-3 and w1-3 at marines in regards to the resource-based nature. But I see what you meant. It goes with your first point.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> 6) solutions like time and maturation usually emulate resources (unnecessarily) anyway - <!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->I think I agree. Maturation is unneeded. But an argument against free hydras?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> 7) static defence structures intuitively cost something - <!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->Yeah, I got it. = Point 1)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> 8) the gorge should be fun and viable without spamming structures and free hydras affect this goal - <!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->Very subjective. I got always more fun with free hydras, because I'm not crippled by one marine rush that kills me and my hydras. Now I have enough res so I can change the lifeform. Before, I was just a frustrated skulk after such a rush.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> 9) find solutions is a waste of time because... 10) pres hydras work and have been shown to work - <!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->Arguable. The game has changed quite a bit. ARCs and GLs can really frustrate you now. It is one thing to die as fade, because you made a mistake. It is another thing to lose so much pRes, because your hydras got ARCed. You can't do something about that. You feel betrayed.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> 11) free hydras necessitates a cap and this severely limits the scope for hydra usage - <!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->What other usage? Placing more hydras? A +1 hydra per hive or an upgrade would solve this and your lategame-scaling-problem. And on a side note, how will you balance hydras without a cap? It seems much more difficult.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> 12) arbitrary caps pretty much suck and, personally, feel like a cop-out - <!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->Subjective. I like them because they making balance possible. This may be an extreme example, but your health and ammo have a cap too. Without it, balancing is impossible.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> 13) the hydras res-sink serves to stagger lifeforms and generally curb their prevalence - <!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->This is right. But why should this hit only the gorge? Where are the res-sinks for the other life forms? I'm against a punishment for players that play this life form.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> 14) the added res-sink means a wider variety of strategies (instead of: "duh, wait for res -> lifeform) - <!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->Agreed, but again this should be true for every lifeform. Not only the gorge.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I hope it's ok that I want pres hydras!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My points for free hydras:<ul><li>The gorge is more mobile and can move his "base" if needed, bringing him more into the action.</li><li>You are not forced to play gorge for the whole round. You can get res to evolve later if you want.</li><li>Every other life form don't has to pay to be effective or has any sort of res-sink. Why should the gorge be the only life form that has?</li><li>Hydras are easier balance-able when capped and free. Costly hydras need to be tougher, could make them to strong while a gorge is healing or to weak while alone.</li><li>They also don't need to be really effective defense-buildings when free. Because they cost nothing, it is justify-able that they are only support for the gorge, but can't hold out against marines alone. (Weak but free is better than strong and costly, because the game should focus on player-vs-player instead of player-vs-buildings.)</li></ul>
To get a compromise: What if they would cost 1pres to stop the spamming and give the marines that feeling of doing something to damage alien economy? I'm also for a health debuff of the hydras. They shouldn't hold out long under concentrated fire. The gorge would be responsible to get rid of the marines, when they attack the hydras instead of hiding behind them and healing.
<!--quoteo(post=1955571:date=Aug 1 2012, 02:51 PM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ Aug 1 2012, 02:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955571"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is it only me who gets the feeling <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiDXcVCOoU0&t=330" target="_blank">this video</a> is sort of propaganda in response to this thread? Watch from 5:30 (as the link already is set to) and especially 8:30 to 9:00. Strayans argument here is that this "TF2 engineer system" is very flexible in supporting your team and flexibly moving the hydras around as one pleases. Yes that is valid and true.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All of this as nothing to do with free vs pres hydra, but with hard-cap and recycling. Different mechanics. It's a logical mistake that people do all the time (again in post above...).
*
The other day we were playing on docking, we were three marines pushing, capping rts and doing a decent job. At some point we run into 3 hydras plus a gorge in a small hallway. We start shooting the hydras in perfect synchrony, it was amazing team play for a pub game, we take down all three hydras in minimum amount of time, we go back to the close by armory to get ammos back (used all our ammos on the hydra) and go back to kill the harvester. 3 hydras are up again.
The first marine typed kill in console, the second one disconnected, and here I am telling you this story.
Yeah, you need to ignore hydra as much as possible. But in many situations it's not possible, in small-long hallway you can't suicide-kill the gorge (it was the case here) and you can't ignore the hydras when they are blocking half of the map (happens on tram a lot).
How about significantly weakening non-mature hydras, significantly improving mature hydras, and significantly increasing the maturation time?
This way the gorge has to invest time into building a proper defensive line, but if he does its worth it. Gorges are rewarded for building a wall to last in a valuable location.
Marines feel that they accomplished something when they do bust down a gorge wall (even though its free) since the gorge spent time on it.
Comments
No, sorry Yuuki but that fallacy does not apply considering that i am not saying "Free hydras work because they implicitly work." In fact I have ONLY said the opposite: that they <b>require adjustment to work!!</b> (just like pres hydras.. sigh..) And i also have never said the opposite: that pres hydras dont work because they cost pres. I have posted too many pages worth of arguments and bullet points on why, months ago, and i can link you the threads if you wish to review.
<i>I am saying</i>: "Free hydras are the intentional design of the creative director of this product. Considering this, can you come up with any suggestions on how to implement them as such in a better form than what is used currently?"
Your edit suggesting Biscum's mod is a great example of what i am looking for - why cant this thread be filled with things like that?
The Nano-spam + Medspam thread was FULL of helpful ideas after i asked to work within the confines of keeping nanoshield on marines??
You do realize how many things have been adjusted to even work at all?
And how often these came at the suggestion of the community?
If you cant provide an idea, its okay. I am not expecting everyone to be able to brainstorm like those fellas in I&S. I get that those who cannot do this resort to the last thing they know worked: costing pres. (despite the issues it caused, which they may not have ever noticed or known about) this is not a bad thing.
But that doesn't mean its impossible to come up with helpful ideas within these confines - if you think they dont work as implemented, its because they dont. But neither did hundreds of other things before adjustments were made. And yes, sometimes the lerk BB just doesnt work.. and we revert.
<b>But we haven't made a single adjustment to free hydras since their implementation.....</b>
So i am just gonna have to say that asking for ideas or suggestions to attempt an adjustment <i>before </i>abandonment, <b>isn't a crap stance. </b>
Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
Also spit and heal are the gorges answers to bite/swipe, why you would think otherwise I have no frikking clue.
Hydras are far more similar to mines than to swipe or bite. And mines DO cost pres.
<!--quoteo(post=1954344:date=Jul 27 2012, 05:30 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 27 2012, 05:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954344"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like I said, the only feedback since Charlie said they were here to stay in that Q n A video has been to revert it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Charlie has said that before, about much more important features - like the resource model. Didn't stop him from changing them eventually, anyway. As long as people believe pres-Hyrdas work better than free ones, there is really no point in stopping to argue for them. It's not like adding a resource cost is a major programming task.
<!--quoteo(post=1954427:date=Jul 27 2012, 09:20 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 27 2012, 09:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954427"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But that doesn't mean its impossible to come up with helpful ideas within these confines - if you think they dont work as implemented, its because they dont. But neither did hundreds of other things before adjustments were made. And yes, sometimes the lerk BB just doesnt work.. and we revert.
<b>But we haven't made a single adjustment to free hydras since their implementation.....</b>
So i am just gonna have to say that asking for ideas or suggestions to attempt an adjustment <i>before </i>abandonment, <b>isn't a crap stance. </b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i><b>We</b></i> revert? <i><b>We</b></i> haven't made a single adjustment? You don't think being a playtester makes you part of UWE now, do you?
Lets see how fast you cry about hydra spam then.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hydras are far more similar to mines than to swipe or bite. And mines DO cost pres.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're not required to "upgrade" your marine to use mines. Gorge requires an initial purchase of 10 p.res, so each initial hydra theoretically costs 3.33 p.res each.
Hydras do cost p.res, just not in a system similar to mines.
You want hyrdas to cost p.res again? See what I typed above the quote and get back to me.
(Btw, pointing to cysts as the best "non-reverted" feature is pretty funny. It still needs vast improvement and I still don't see anything remotely close to the creative strategies for aliens that existed in NS1.)
Don't
This is a resource model based game..
So free anything, even air, does not fit. the end, thank you, good bye, etc etc etc.
Another one, its impossible to balance for both teams without making them entirely useless.
In reply to above post.
10 res hydras was the middle ground
5 res is way too cheap
15-20 is the 'extreme' land.
Where you would have 5 res hydras being useless, 10 being ok, and 15-20 being extremely useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2 has free spawns, free basic classes/weapons, free healing and ammo (regen/energy and armory), free vision/flashlights, free passive obs sight/shade cloak, free crag heal, free sentry/whip attack, and so on. If these can be balanced, then I think free hydras can be balanced too.
a very calculated decision to not offer advice on how to improve something<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That about sums it up for me.
Like i said, this has been beaten to death. I see the same crowd making the same arguments from months ago - i am not here to beat this dead horse again or get into a conversation about semantics or distinctions in what you feel certain mechanics should be or shouldn't be. Go on with your bad self and talk amongst yourselves about such a thing all over again - <u>I'm not here for that, i've already asked you move on from seeking this with me.</u>
All i've asked is for suggestions to work within the constraints given, and if for some reason you cannot add a disclaimer such as "I do not support free hydras, but if they stay they should at least..." then thats your opinion and like i said you dont have to contribute to ideas like those other guys in I&S did, you can stick to your opinion and then get mad at me all over again about mine, seeking confrontation. But it doesnt change the fact that i will be seeking ideas and solutions for said issue from those willing to contribute. Your offense to such a thing is your own issue, I'm sorry.
I'm amazed at the grasp some of you have demonstrated in the past page alone, seeking an argument or a justification. I am not here for that and have clearly stated such. Those who replied like that can't or won't offer feedback within a given constraint and the most you can do is a) be insulting b) seek confrontation c)laugh.
<b>And that just tells me i should head to the I&S section and not bother around these parts for such requests. Thanks.</b>
@raza Go look up posts from me before i was a PT (2011) i said we constantly. Besides the general use of the term, i.e. "We tried that already" amongst peers, you should use it too, you're contributing to a work in progress. ::rolls eyes:: quit looking for something that ain't there.
Yes all those are free... But they are not a AI and will attack on there own. Also none of those can be placed at the front lines at the start of a game to stop/slow down marines. That's the biggest issue. You can go to the front and keep replacing them. With no drawbacks at all.
If you absolutely want them to be free, you need a cooldown of x seconds, where the x is the amount of time it takes to get 10 pres with the amount of rts you have at the time. Then add +10 pres cost to all the lifeforms upon dropping a hydra. Of course you could also go with hydras costing 10 pres but that would be too easy route.
Free structures = them being spammed endlessly = a waste of time and boring as hell. I just ignore the part of the map, or type quit in console when theres 4 gorges spamming that ######.
You can quote me and imply that i'm some devious imp trying to trick the process but it's far more simple than that. I don't want to invest time trying to fix free hydras because I don't want hydras to be free.
Then don't answer my requests for ideas? Move on with your debates or complaints! Really simple solution, bud.
<b>Also, show me where i've spoken on behalf of UWE?</b>
I'm no different than any of you.
Anyone of you can paste a vid of charlie's response or quote a dev and their intentions, and then go ask for proper feedback and email it to charlie. Any sense of "lording" is entirely fabricated by yourself..
/done here
1) killing free structures is highly unsatisfying
2) placing free structures doesn't feel like any investment
3) free hydras don't incur tradeoffs
4) balancing hydras in the early game is mutually exclusive with balancing them in the late game
5) it breaks away from the resource-based nature of the game
6) solutions like time and maturation usually emulate resources (unnecessarily) anyway
7) static defence structures intuitively cost something
8) the gorge should be fun and viable without spamming structures and free hydras affect this goal
9) find solutions is a waste of time because...
10) pres hydras work and have been shown to work
11) free hydras necessitates a cap and this severely limits the scope for hydra usage
12) arbitrary caps pretty much suck and, personally, feel like a cop-out
13) the hydras res-sink serves to stagger lifeforms and generally curb their prevalence
14) the added res-sink means a wider variety of strategies (instead of: "duh, wait for res -> lifeform)
I hope it's ok that I want pres hydras!
But why is the lack of a hard cap not a big problem for mines? They cost pres! Because a.) they are temporary, and b.) they have a self limiting factor of becoming worse when they are clustered together too much. Hydras could benefit from either of those features. What if they withered over time? What if they had friendly fire with each other? What if they run out of "ammo" and need to be "reloaded" by a gorge? What if they did a non-stacking DOT instead of direct damage, making mega-clusters of them less useful?
Mines are bar none the most similar feature of the game to hydras. Why are the features that make mines work so well never explored with hydras?
The "They were the only abilities that cost res!" argument is bonus, because now they're also the only structures that don't. They have similarities to both abilities and structures, so obviously there is gong to be some dissonance with regular game mechanics on one side or the other. Trading one for the other is just a preference, it doesn't "fix" anything.
I'm open-minded about fixes that don't involve them costing pres, but that doesn't mean I'm optimistic. I haven't really played much gorge since this change happened, and I probably won't unless something drastic happens.
While I'm fantasizing, yes, please make gorge structures infestation only, give back some kind of mini-cyst with a more unique model (it can come out at hive 2 if needed for balancing). <3
well, that was one of the reasons anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1954508:date=Jul 27 2012, 09:09 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jul 27 2012, 09:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954508"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->shifting them more towards a combat/frontline support role and leaving the real infrastructure building to the comm. That's also why they were separated from infestation, why the build time got buffed this patch, etc. The alien team doesn't need two full time builders. The moment you make those structures cost res, Gorges will want to build them more defensively again to protect their investment and they just can't be used the same way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I liked playing defensive gorge, and as a frequent khamm player, I love communicating with and backing up my gorges by dropping crags and such on their stuff. That's less sensible than it used to be. If gorge is supposed to be a front-line player now instead of a defender, I will really miss the old D-gorge, both as a gorge and as a khamm. But even so, he needs a lot of tweaking before he's a fun front-line class IMO.
If that's the way it's gotta be, I'd like to see hydras build much more quickly and maybe be weaker to compensate a-la mini-sentries in TF2. Perhaps a long-ish cooldown could be added to building them to avoid insta-3-hydras.
As far as I know the reasons officially given for the change were :
- It's simpler.
- Hydra are abilities, abilities don't cost pres!
- Hydra costing pres promotes high hydra count; free hydras solve this problem.
It's in the developer Q&A with Charlie.
If we're sticking with free hydras they should probably be doing less damage, especially alpha damage. Each volley doing 60 dmg is pretty huge at a0. Dodging them is also kinda unintuitive although i guess thats not a big issue in the scheme of things.
Strayans argument here is that this "TF2 engineer system" is very flexible in supporting your team and flexibly moving the hydras around as one pleases. Yes that is valid and true.
BUT
Not only are they very rarely used as intended in the video, there's a BUNCH of reasons why it's bad and why res-costing hydras is BETTER, that never get mentioned.
Like mentioned, they're used in many (I hope) unintended ways where 1-2 gorges can overpower a whole marine team as been mentioned countless times. It allows 1-2 gorges to go rambo, without any tradeoff, and be good at it.
In NS1 similar things also happened, 2 gorges put down 4 OC, but here the OCs cost the gorges 20 res each (+ 10 each for gorging). If this was wiped out that's 2x30 res lost.
Not to mention 6 hydras are like 3 times more lethal than 4 OC.
In NS2 that's 2x10 res lost. There's <u>much less</u> res needed, 2/3 less, to accomplish something, say to be modest, 2x as good - that's 6 times more effective! <u>Plus</u> you could be much more bold with it since there's no tradeoff, <u>no invested res risk</u>!
No wonder people are criticizing this...
As a fun sidenote here's Strayan playing NS1 as gorge happily placing countless OCs :D
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2udaSz_g7I" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2udaSz_g7I</a>
Suggestion I made before...
<!--quoteo(post=1939412:date=May 28 2012, 02:30 AM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ May 28 2012, 02:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939412"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Keep the current hydras, BUT add a second type of hydra that IS strong and DOES cost res!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...that should probably be changed to something like:
Make the current hydras weaker so they become SUPPORT and are not viable offensively. THEN add a second type of hydra that IS strong and DOES cost res!
Edit: Why not give kham the ability to build the NS1 OC (or similar)!
Three types of projectile structures:
OC is strong, groundbound, and moderate dmg, cost TR (or PR if gorges build them)
Hydra is versatile in placement, medium strong, a little more dmg, cost PR
Mini-Hydra is free, capped numbers and weak, tied to the gorge.
Res overflow. While you are capped at 100 res, everyone else on the team is getting more p.res per tick.
That is, if this is still in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1954475:date=Jul 28 2012, 12:43 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jul 28 2012, 12:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954475"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyway, back to hydras. I think they shouldn't be free because:
1) killing free structures is highly unsatisfying - <!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->Yeah ok, that is an argument I have to agree to.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
2) placing free structures doesn't feel like any investment - <!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->I don't see a problem here. It will not get more fun when it feels like an investment<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
3) free hydras don't incur tradeoffs - <!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->Tradeoffs are only needed for balance or to create more viable options. Res-costing hydras only create the new option to not build them due to the costs.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
4) balancing hydras in the early game is mutually exclusive with balancing them in the late game - <!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->This hasn't to be true, they could get stronger with hives for example. But this isn't even a point against free hydras.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
5) it breaks away from the resource-based nature of the game - <!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->Yeah, in one little aspect. If the kham had to upgrade the number of hydras gorges can build (from 2 to X) with t-res, they would be on the same level like a1-3 and w1-3 at marines in regards to the resource-based nature. But I see what you meant. It goes with your first point.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
6) solutions like time and maturation usually emulate resources (unnecessarily) anyway - <!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->I think I agree. Maturation is unneeded. But an argument against free hydras?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
7) static defence structures intuitively cost something - <!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->Yeah, I got it. = Point 1)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
8) the gorge should be fun and viable without spamming structures and free hydras affect this goal - <!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->Very subjective. I got always more fun with free hydras, because I'm not crippled by one marine rush that kills me and my hydras. Now I have enough res so I can change the lifeform. Before, I was just a frustrated skulk after such a rush.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
9) find solutions is a waste of time because...
10) pres hydras work and have been shown to work - <!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->Arguable. The game has changed quite a bit. ARCs and GLs can really frustrate you now. It is one thing to die as fade, because you made a mistake. It is another thing to lose so much pRes, because your hydras got ARCed. You can't do something about that. You feel betrayed.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
11) free hydras necessitates a cap and this severely limits the scope for hydra usage - <!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->What other usage? Placing more hydras? A +1 hydra per hive or an upgrade would solve this and your lategame-scaling-problem. And on a side note, how will you balance hydras without a cap? It seems much more difficult.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
12) arbitrary caps pretty much suck and, personally, feel like a cop-out - <!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->Subjective. I like them because they making balance possible. This may be an extreme example, but your health and ammo have a cap too. Without it, balancing is impossible.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
13) the hydras res-sink serves to stagger lifeforms and generally curb their prevalence - <!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->This is right. But why should this hit only the gorge? Where are the res-sinks for the other life forms? I'm against a punishment for players that play this life form.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
14) the added res-sink means a wider variety of strategies (instead of: "duh, wait for res -> lifeform) - <!--coloro:#006400--><span style="color:#006400"><!--/coloro-->Agreed, but again this should be true for every lifeform. Not only the gorge.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I hope it's ok that I want pres hydras!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My points for free hydras:<ul><li>The gorge is more mobile and can move his "base" if needed, bringing him more into the action.</li><li>You are not forced to play gorge for the whole round. You can get res to evolve later if you want.</li><li>Every other life form don't has to pay to be effective or has any sort of res-sink. Why should the gorge be the only life form that has?</li><li>Hydras are easier balance-able when capped and free. Costly hydras need to be tougher, could make them to strong while a gorge is healing or to weak while alone.</li><li>They also don't need to be really effective defense-buildings when free. Because they cost nothing, it is justify-able that they are only support for the gorge, but can't hold out against marines alone. (Weak but free is better than strong and costly, because the game should focus on player-vs-player instead of player-vs-buildings.)</li></ul>
To get a compromise: What if they would cost 1pres to stop the spamming and give the marines that feeling of doing something to damage alien economy? I'm also for a health debuff of the hydras. They shouldn't hold out long under concentrated fire. The gorge would be responsible to get rid of the marines, when they attack the hydras instead of hiding behind them and healing.
Strayans argument here is that this "TF2 engineer system" is very flexible in supporting your team and flexibly moving the hydras around as one pleases. Yes that is valid and true.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All of this as nothing to do with free vs pres hydra, but with hard-cap and recycling. Different mechanics. It's a logical mistake that people do all the time (again in post above...).
*
The other day we were playing on docking, we were three marines pushing, capping rts and doing a decent job. At some point we run into 3 hydras plus a gorge in a small hallway. We start shooting the hydras in perfect synchrony, it was amazing team play for a pub game, we take down all three hydras in minimum amount of time, we go back to the close by armory to get ammos back (used all our ammos on the hydra) and go back to kill the harvester. 3 hydras are up again.
The first marine typed kill in console, the second one disconnected, and here I am telling you this story.
True story, except the very end.
This way the gorge has to invest time into building a proper defensive line, but if he does its worth it. Gorges are rewarded for building a wall to last in a valuable location.
Marines feel that they accomplished something when they do bust down a gorge wall (even though its free) since the gorge spent time on it.