<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thank you, too. We will see how it work. If it must be, I will do some changes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no really, fana is right, gaint open spaces (just like those two massive 'corridors' you have) really don't work. You don't have to wait and see, it's allready a proven fact that they don't work!
This is constructive advice that you'll have to follow up, because it's easier to make changes now, than changing it after it has been textured, lighted etc.
imagine a skulk having to run 40 meters to reach a marine with a rifle, the marine always wins. NS2 is about close-quarter combat. Find a way to break up those hallways in smaller chunks, otherwise you'll have to clutter your map with crates and stuff later on....
Also keep in mind that the drawing distance for entities like players isnt that long. You can see this in ns2_summits crevice, if a lerk is flying at the very far end, he will pop out of sight due to the draw limit. And it wont be any fun to play with huge rooms like that, it simply doesnt work in this game no matter how much you would want it to.
<!--quoteo(post=1954812:date=Jul 29 2012, 09:46 AM:name=Cetme)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cetme @ Jul 29 2012, 09:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And the mainwork for the moment.
South Railway:
<u><b>(some walls, the bridges and some trains, etc. will work as fiew, move, fly, etc. blocking elements) </b></u> Greetz Cetme<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can "see" that I planned elements like this. I just want the feel of free long ways. I hope it will work.
Walls will work fine, but bridges or trains just don't cut it.. you can just stand on those bridges to get a clear overview, or you could jump on the train (if its too high you can do it with JPs)
Just saying that if you add walls, you better incorporate them in your design from the start, otherwise they'll look out of place. You can't get the feel of "long free hallways".
Take an example from the map Tram for example, indeed it has a long tram track, but its broken up by a total of four 90 degree corners. your design shows virtually no corners.
I strongly suggest you'd mok up an overview _sketch_ in paint or so and show it to us on the forum for evaluation before you start adding walls, because gameplay is #1, looks are #2.
<!--quoteo(post=1964342:date=Aug 17 2012, 12:53 PM:name=LPC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LPC @ Aug 17 2012, 12:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964342"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Walls will work fine, but bridges or trains just don't cut it.. you can just stand on those bridges to get a clear overview, or you could jump on the train (if its too high you can do it with JPs)
Just saying that if you add walls, you better incorporate them in your design from the start, otherwise they'll look out of place. You can't get the feel of "long free hallways".
Take an example from the map Tram for example, indeed it has a long tram track, but its broken up by a total of four 90 degree corners. your design shows virtually no corners.
I strongly suggest you'd mok up an overview _sketch_ in paint or so and show it to us on the forum for evaluation before you start adding walls, because gameplay is #1, looks are #2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the hallways happen to be too long, there is always the possibility of a huge ceiling collapse because of a huge train crash.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1963961:date=Aug 16 2012, 08:02 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 16 2012, 08:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963961"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This looks great, but in no way playable in a melee vs. ranged combat game. Sorry dude, but vast rooms and big, open corridors don't work in this game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, this is a big problem with the big open spaces-type maps. However, you can usually get it to a playable state by filling the rooms with lots of random stuff (look at landing pad in docking for an idea of how to do this).
Landing pad is not the most alien friendly area though. Consedering that this open hallway is actually the center part of the map, it should _definatly_ not be more marine friendly then alien friendly. Can't stress how important this is! Aliens need 'thight spaces' in order for skulks or gorges to stand a chance.
Sometimes creating something out of accomplishment instead of balance is equally if not more greater. I applaud this effort and I really don't care if it is balanced. I celebrate one's hard work for a beautiful map. Take a moment to understand the time and effort that goes into this and stop being a ######.
<!--quoteo(post=1964856:date=Aug 18 2012, 08:18 PM:name=Death_by_bullets)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Death_by_bullets @ Aug 18 2012, 08:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964856"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sometimes creating something out of accomplishment instead of balance is equally if not more greater. I applaud this effort and I really don't care if it is balanced. I celebrate one's hard work for a beautiful map. Take a moment to understand the time and effort that goes into this and stop being a ######.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We're giving constructive feedback because we are impressed with his work. But there's no point in going through all the effort if the map is a giant imbalanced mess that nobody plays.
Looks very good. Make sure to test how wall walking and wall jumping works on it, if it doesn't work well you can always put some flat collision geometry on top of it.
Those corners look beautiful. When you have them implemented, put some onos models in the hallway and then check to see how much of a clear view you have of them as a marine. Insert props to block view as needed.
Next step is to finish a simple greybox map. I hope I will manage this soon.
Greetz Cetme<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, I am a bit skeptical of what I see here. Such immense detail is better left for props. I think texturing this to good ends will be nearly impossible, and certainly not comparable to the results you get from a prop.
I recommend making use of the static prop meshes at our disposal
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
I was thinking the exact same thing. There already similar hallway props, and unless you plan on making textures specifically for this design you might not get the results you are after.
Still looks very cool, and am very interested in how all of this turns out :)
<!--quoteo(post=1965710:date=Aug 22 2012, 04:05 AM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ Aug 22 2012, 04:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hmm, I am a bit skeptical of what I see here. Such immense detail is better left for props. I think texturing this to good ends will be nearly impossible, and certainly not comparable to the results you get from a prop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought the same, too. ;) But it would be great for me to see this design in the level.
I don't know how easy or difficult it is to learn to great props and texture them. It is my first level project. I have learned a lot in the last weeks and I have mutch to learn in the next weeks / months (english, too ;D). So is your feedback very important for me.
I think there will be many changes before the map will be finished.
Maybe I would find some help (at the end) to finish the map with all this details. Someone which could help me with greating props and textures. Not now at the moment but in future.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
The thing we're concerned with is the fact that the texture tool for faces is severely lacking. You have no texture settings such as "treat as one", "align with world/face" or smoothing groups in general. And texture "locking" will drive you crazy if you flip your geometry along an axis. So, as long as those features are not in yet, it is best to get the detail from working around textures and use the lines in there to accentuate them to some extent.
For example: A nicely aligned texture on a simple face would look better, supported by the implemented texture mapping compared to a very complex face with a texture that simply cannot be aligned properly, due to the lack of the tools and features I mentioned above. Also the lighting will only serve to accentuate/highlight the unavoidable misaligned issues. Just something to keep in mind :)
I do think you can hide some of these issues currently with loads of cleverly placed trims and bevels or tactically place trim props. But it wont solve the main issue the engine has, which is lack of features :P
Some simple advice based on what Kouji_San mentioned... it's all I can give: try to make 1 room fully detailled and textured etc. before you start the rest of the map.
just for testing and learning purposes really, you'll learn what you'll want, and not want to do with your geometry ;)
something that might seem easy to pull of in Sketchup for example, might be hard as hell in Spark.
edit, ALSO: isn't it sometimes much easier to texture something _before_ you start copy-rotating the geometry? I know I did that a lot in sketchup.. (if texture aligment doesn't copy the right way though, you're screwed either way)
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=1966246:date=Aug 24 2012, 07:14 AM:name=LPC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LPC @ Aug 24 2012, 07:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966246"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(if texture aligment doesn't copy the right way though, you're screwed either way)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yep texture alignment gets reversed if you use the "flip axis" commands, so you then have to select each face and reverse the values (which isn't too hard sometimes as usually you are just putting a (-) minus symbol or removing the minus.
As far as texturing, you never know... there might be a high chance you could have many of the texture features worked out in the game engine by that time.
after a very frustrating day with the editor and his tools, ..., I need a break. ;)
I think I will paint and draw a new picture in the next days in the hope to get my fun back and find a masterplan how to work with props which are rotated ...
Or should I wait until the tools are better?
However here some pictures for you from the lastest version.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2012
Hooray !
I like what I see, however I'm sure now you're getting more of an idea to why geometry like yours is not more common, when you go to texture it :P
My only criticism would be to try to relate the spaces you make to something "real", or some "real" ideas, such as an elevator, a cart tunnel, etc etc. This will help sell the scenes. Just something to keep in mind, you don't have to get too literal about it either, just attempting is usually enough. It seems like you've got some buses or trams in there, so that's good.
some critic: Those windows break up that white trim a bit odd, I think it would look better if the windows were narrower or if the white trim was removed..
Thanks for some shots without edges!! Really shows the potential of your geometry!
Comments
no really, fana is right, gaint open spaces (just like those two massive 'corridors' you have) really don't work. You don't have to wait and see, it's allready a proven fact that they don't work!
This is constructive advice that you'll have to follow up, because it's easier to make changes now, than changing it after it has been textured, lighted etc.
imagine a skulk having to run 40 meters to reach a marine with a rifle, the marine always wins. NS2 is about close-quarter combat. Find a way to break up those hallways in smaller chunks, otherwise you'll have to clutter your map with crates and stuff later on....
(still a big fan of your geometry however :D)
greetings,
for clarification... this won't work in NS2, ever, you can shoot that onos from a million miles away, the aliens stand no chance.
it is funny to qoute myself, ...
<!--quoteo(post=1954812:date=Jul 29 2012, 09:46 AM:name=Cetme)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cetme @ Jul 29 2012, 09:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And the mainwork for the moment.
South Railway:
<u><b>(some walls, the bridges and some trains, etc. will work as fiew, move, fly, etc. blocking elements)
</b></u>
Greetz Cetme<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can "see" that I planned elements like this. I just want the feel of free long ways. I hope it will work.
And still thank you for your constructive advice!
Greetz Cetme
Just saying that if you add walls, you better incorporate them in your design from the start, otherwise they'll look out of place. You can't get the feel of "long free hallways".
Take an example from the map Tram for example, indeed it has a long tram track, but its broken up by a total of four 90 degree corners. your design shows virtually no corners.
I strongly suggest you'd mok up an overview _sketch_ in paint or so and show it to us on the forum for evaluation before you start adding walls, because gameplay is #1, looks are #2.
Just saying that if you add walls, you better incorporate them in your design from the start, otherwise they'll look out of place. You can't get the feel of "long free hallways".
Take an example from the map Tram for example, indeed it has a long tram track, but its broken up by a total of four 90 degree corners. your design shows virtually no corners.
I strongly suggest you'd mok up an overview _sketch_ in paint or so and show it to us on the forum for evaluation before you start adding walls, because gameplay is #1, looks are #2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the hallways happen to be too long, there is always the possibility of a huge ceiling collapse because of a huge train crash.
People love train crashes.
Awesome!
Keep up the good work I want to see soon at least an advance!!! :D
Yeah, this is a big problem with the big open spaces-type maps. However, you can usually get it to a playable state by filling the rooms with lots of random stuff (look at landing pad in docking for an idea of how to do this).
We're giving constructive feedback because we are impressed with his work. But there's no point in going through all the effort if the map is a giant imbalanced mess that nobody plays.
thank you very mutch again for all your feedback! ;)
The last days I was testing a little bit around with the hallway design, here one first result. What do you think about it?
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/jPspT.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/GLTxj.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Next step is to finish a simple greybox map. I hope I will manage this soon.
Greetz Cetme
thank you very mutch again for all your feedback! ;)
The last days I was testing a little bit around with the hallway design, here one first result. What do you think about it?
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/jPspT.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/GLTxj.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Next step is to finish a simple greybox map. I hope I will manage this soon.
Greetz Cetme<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, I am a bit skeptical of what I see here. Such immense detail is better left for props. I think texturing this to good ends will be nearly impossible, and certainly not comparable to the results you get from a prop.
I recommend making use of the static prop meshes at our disposal
Still looks very cool, and am very interested in how all of this turns out :)
<!--quoteo(post=1965710:date=Aug 22 2012, 04:05 AM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ Aug 22 2012, 04:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hmm, I am a bit skeptical of what I see here. Such immense detail is better left for props. I think texturing this to good ends will be nearly impossible, and certainly not comparable to the results you get from a prop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought the same, too. ;)
But it would be great for me to see this design in the level.
I don't know how easy or difficult it is to learn to great props and texture them. It is my first level project. I have learned a lot in the last weeks and I have mutch to learn in the next weeks / months (english, too ;D).
So is your feedback very important for me.
I think there will be many changes before the map will be finished.
Maybe I would find some help (at the end) to finish the map with all this details. Someone which could help me with greating props and textures. Not now at the moment but in future.
Greetz Cetme
For example: A nicely aligned texture on a simple face would look better, supported by the implemented texture mapping compared to a very complex face with a texture that simply cannot be aligned properly, due to the lack of the tools and features I mentioned above. Also the lighting will only serve to accentuate/highlight the unavoidable misaligned issues. Just something to keep in mind :)
I do think you can hide some of these issues currently with loads of cleverly placed trims and bevels or tactically place trim props. But it wont solve the main issue the engine has, which is lack of features :P
Tho... Millenium Falcon, anyone?
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/7Qtku.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
just for testing and learning purposes really, you'll learn what you'll want, and not want to do with your geometry ;)
something that might seem easy to pull of in Sketchup for example, might be hard as hell in Spark.
edit, ALSO: isn't it sometimes much easier to texture something _before_ you start copy-rotating the geometry? I know I did that a lot in sketchup.. (if texture aligment doesn't copy the right way though, you're screwed either way)
yep texture alignment gets reversed if you use the "flip axis" commands, so you then have to select each face and reverse the values (which isn't too hard sometimes as usually you are just putting a (-) minus symbol or removing the minus.
here a little update. ;)
I cleaned an changed a little bit the layout and design. The last word has not yet been spoken
Texturing kills me, ...
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/rYBP2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/65Pwb.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/WsBXa.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/blHFc.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/uu6k5.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The max distance of view is at the moment around 1500 points.
The top of the bridges will be "closed" with a wall.
Greetz Cetme
I would worry about balance after.
As far as texturing, you never know... there might be a high chance you could have many of the texture features worked out in the game engine by that time.
after a very frustrating day with the editor and his tools, ..., I need a break. ;)
I think I will paint and draw a new picture in the next days in the hope to get my fun back and find a masterplan how to work with props which are rotated ...
Or should I wait until the tools are better?
However here some pictures for you from the lastest version.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/myUQ6.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/BafFg.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/SqMmy.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/6neey.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The last one is just for you fmpone. ;)
Greetz Cetme
I like what I see, however I'm sure now you're getting more of an idea to why geometry like yours is not more common, when you go to texture it :P
My only criticism would be to try to relate the spaces you make to something "real", or some "real" ideas, such as an elevator, a cart tunnel, etc etc. This will help sell the scenes. Just something to keep in mind, you don't have to get too literal about it either, just attempting is usually enough. It seems like you've got some buses or trams in there, so that's good.
Keep it up Cetme!
I still playing around with the design, ... ^^
What do you think about the latest version?
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/aax2B.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Greetz Cetme
Thanks for some shots without edges!! Really shows the potential of your geometry!