What are you supposed to do agains Alien Fortification?
Chuck_Norris
Join Date: 2012-04-01 Member: 149779Members
Join Date: 2012-04-01 Member: 149779Members
Yesterday we had a big match on HBZ Servers and i was marine com!
The game was pretty advanced, Aliens had 2 Hives and we were fully teched up.
The Alien Com spent his res on Whips beyond the frontline so you couldn't just rush in to get hives down. I tried to take them down by arcs but Alien Com used tint cloud every single time so i couldn't siege a bit. It was hard for marines to take down every single whip, cause aliens defended well and alien khamm kept spending res on whips.
So my question is, what are u supposed to do in such a situation?
Using arcs isn't effective.
GL's dont work on whips.
Flamethrower could be a choice, but if there are too many aliens around they notice u take out cysts or whips and they will get you!
FT isn't that effective against structures...a matured whip takes 2 full clips of W3 FT!
So what to do?
ALiens have ultra range bile-bomb against fortification and lerks disabling turrets.....marines have arcs and?
I'm awaiting your answers :)
The game was pretty advanced, Aliens had 2 Hives and we were fully teched up.
The Alien Com spent his res on Whips beyond the frontline so you couldn't just rush in to get hives down. I tried to take them down by arcs but Alien Com used tint cloud every single time so i couldn't siege a bit. It was hard for marines to take down every single whip, cause aliens defended well and alien khamm kept spending res on whips.
So my question is, what are u supposed to do in such a situation?
Using arcs isn't effective.
GL's dont work on whips.
Flamethrower could be a choice, but if there are too many aliens around they notice u take out cysts or whips and they will get you!
FT isn't that effective against structures...a matured whip takes 2 full clips of W3 FT!
So what to do?
ALiens have ultra range bile-bomb against fortification and lerks disabling turrets.....marines have arcs and?
I'm awaiting your answers :)
Comments
But i didn't knew that Burning Whips are not reflecting the nades...that could be an option!
This. If you protect the GL & Flamer guy, one of each can be enough to break a fortification with ease.
Jetpacks are also very useful. And there are usually more ways to reach 1 point on the map than one.
Did you even read the opening post? He said that the aliens had 2 hives...
I'm not so sure about that. Whips can "easily" be disabled by the flamer. Crags have to use their active ability to be effective. Hydras are hard capped and require the player to stay a gorge. And the marine can counter with jetpacks and arcs. I assume the exo will be able to take down whips pretty effectively as well.
many marines attack at the same time as the ARCs. they waste their ammo on structures, die to the lifeforms and then the ARCs are defenseless. you could try ordering your team to defend them (maybe even from a safe distance). mines, grenades or flamethrowers work rather well imo. also, remember ARCs have a huge range and can fire through walls. i've seen several commanders moving their ARCs right into enemy territory where it is very difficult for the marines to defend them...
Soooo 2 hives, fully teched up, and whips as far as the eye can see...
Ye, you didn't really lose that because of the whip spam OP, you lost that because of mistakes made earlier in the game.
I've seen this as well this is just silly. What also is silly how easily arcs can be defended by GL spam on the arcs :(
You just need a bit scouting.
You just need a bit scouting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then the marines failed protecting the arcs. Or the positioning of the arcs wasn't good.
Ye, you didn't really lose that because of the whip spam OP, you lost that because of mistakes made earlier in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah maybe that game.
But it made me thinking about Alien Fortification while marines have what? Useless sentries.... Can be taken down to easy or disabled by lerks....but that's another thread!
<!--quoteo(post=1956422:date=Aug 3 2012, 05:21 AM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Aug 3 2012, 05:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1956422"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then the marines failed protecting the arcs. Or the positioning of the arcs wasn't good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just wanted to state that GL spam isn't that effective with an intelligent alien team... Gorges Bilebomb while rest is keeping the marines busy!
And i wanted to say that the gorge bile bomb spam is pretty much the same than the GL spam. Though trough the fact that the marines are attacking with arcs through the wall they have upper hand in positioning, their goal has to be that the arcs are as difficult as possible to attack.
What do you find more fun to fight as marine ? Whips or skulks ?
What do you find more fun to fight as marine ? Whips or skulks ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since the marines have beacon and phase gate and the aliens don't have direct counter parts i think alien hives should/have to be defended by structures, or the path to the hive.
What to fight is hard to say, i think there has to be a balance between both, though fighting other players should still be the main part of the game.
Balance or symmetry arguments are irrelevant, you could simply reduce the 30+ seconds waiting time for spawning as alien if you needed balance.
It's purely a question of personal preference: would you like the game to be more, or less tower-defense-y?
It's purely a question of personal preference: would you like the game to be more, or less tower-defense-y?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course less tower-defense-y.
But i think there are already a lot ways to break fortifications which reduces the effectiveness of whip spamming.
And since aliens spawn as skulks and die very easily in barrage fire and/or GL spam, reducing the respawn time won't help much, but this is a other topic ;)
Ideally statics defenses should be used as little as possible, and always in a specific goal: help the second hive to go up, hold a phase gate, etc. Dropping them all over the map should be very bad.
I'm not too sure how you can reconcile these two goals though. Maybe there could be some kind of hidden static defense counter, and if you drop more than a given amount, you loose the game instantly (like "power limit reached: auto-destruction!" and everything explode).
Ideally statics defenses should be used as little as possible, and always in a specific goal: help the second hive to go up, hold a phase gate, etc. Dropping them all over the map should be very bad.
I'm not too sure how you can reconcile these two goals though. Maybe there could be some kind of hidden static defense counter, and if you drop more than a given amount, you loose the game instantly (like "power limit reached: auto-destruction!" and everything explode).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whips are available from the start but 15tres is a lot of res in early game since your team is hungry for any new upgrade and ability.
Well i know that many ppl were crying but ARC's have became much less usable in this build because alien khamm can use his tint cloud now. And if does not have a shade he drops one and get's the shade nearly instantly (seriously, is it like 15seconds?)
I think in 214 it was a nice balance u could use ARCs to get hive down but u had to prevet the aliens from bilebombing them. Nowadays ARC's aren't really used till very very lategame.
i agree, having 1-2 whips will not help that much, even in early game. there seem to be very few spots where the marine cannot shoot the whip from a safe distance or around the corner (at the lower part, which is wider). even if one marine has to tank it, it's still quite some res invested there.
and bile bomb is somewhat working yes, but you can always find a spot where the gorges have to move out of their base to attack the ARCs, making them quite vulnerable.
I think in 214 it was a nice balance u could use ARCs to get hive down but u had to prevet the aliens from bilebombing them. Nowadays ARC's aren't really used till very very lategame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The arcs do have become a very rare luxury. But i think it's not as bad. If you have arcs, you probably have some upgrades up too, a marine can rambo in the base, kill that shade, or aliens might not even notice the arcs in time and the shade dies with one blow. Any attempts to build a shade while arcs are attacking are futile. I mean, you saw that on Docking. Where it was you (i think) with 3 hydras holding east wing corridor to terminal. Even though i was inking all the time, the arcs still got a couple of shots through and took out the shade.
<img src="http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/3172/fuuuuui.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
We used to see this with turrets all the time, and it has been fixed. Now it's the turn of alien structures I think.
Here is my idea :
There should be some kind of hidden static defense counter, and if you drop more than a given amount, you loose the game instantly:
<i>The mutation has gone wild, the genome is unstable, begin the apoptosis !</i>
and then every players and structures explode.
There should be some kind of hidden static defense counter, and if you drop more than a given amount, you loose the game instantly:
<i>The mutation has gone wild, the genome is unstable, begin the apoptosis !</i>
and then every players and structures explode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds reasonable
You just need a bit scouting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you have most of the marines spamming GLs with a couple welding the ARCs. Gorge bile bomb won't kill the weldy marines.
"but then aliens can do XYZ!!"
Very good! In a well-made game, EVERYTHING has a viable counter, and nothing is undefeatable. The winner will be the team that adapts their strategy faster.