So are the Aliens just easier to play, or are they OP?

V4NGUARDV4NGUARD Join Date: 2012-08-04 Member: 154745Members
edited August 2012 in NS2 General Discussion
From the perspective of someone new I've found that the aliens are by far the easiest to win as, every game I've played with them we've won pretty much maybe bar 1 or 2 where as its the complete opposite as the marines. Skulks can take down a group of marines easily and don't seem to die unless everyone unloads into them at the same time I get that it takes good aim but for one of my first games ever of NS2 where I was a skulk I was top of the team and barely died.

They can hit and run and seem to be able soak up quite a few hits where as most marines die with 2/3 hits. It feels like if you were to match up an even number of marines an skulks with basic equipment that the skulks would win almost 100% of the time.

I'm just wondering if this is something that the community has come to deal with? or if something will be done? this isn't meant to be your typical "whine whine nerf whine" post, I was just wondering.

Comments

  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1957299:date=Aug 4 2012, 03:53 PM:name=V4NGUARD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (V4NGUARD @ Aug 4 2012, 03:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957299"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From the perspective of someone new I've found that the aliens are by far the easiest to win as, every game I've played with them we've won pretty much maybe bar 1 or 2 where as its the complete opposite as the marines. Skulks can take down a group of marines easily and don't seem to die unless everyone unloads into them at the same time I get that it takes good aim but for one of my first games ever of NS2 where I was a skulk I was top of the team and barely died.

    They can hit and run and seem to be able soak up quite a few hits where as most marines die with 2/3 hits.

    I'm just wondering if this is something that the community has come to deal with? or if something will be done? this isn't meant to be your typical "whine whine nerf whine" post, I was just wondering.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Aliens are less effected by lag, marines have hit regulation issues, and aliens are a tad OP. Skulks are easy to kill until they get carapace, then they can be a pain at least in my opinion.
  • LocklearLocklear [nexzil]kerrigan Join Date: 2012-05-01 Member: 151403Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Easier to play, and OP atm. Different reasons for each one though.

    Several lifeforms and abilities create high skill floors, low skill ceilings thus easy to play. Some OP stuff is "Feign Death" and the current Fade setup is kinda imbalanced.

    Few other things I'm sure someone else will mention..
  • TquilaTquila Join Date: 2010-02-26 Member: 70738Members, NS2 Playtester
    edited August 2012
    I think marines take a bit more getting used to. The aliens are very easy to ease into, get a skulk move around the walls and eat stuff. They are fast paced, and the marines are slow paced. If you want to, you can avoid being a gorge for a bit, and you can toy around with the leap and what not. And lastly, but not least, they have no reload timer.

    Playing marine require that you learn the movement patterns of aliens, where can they drop from? Where are there vents? Why should I not just empty my entire clip at once? Then there's the focus of having to build things, which areas are often likely to get hit when you build, and should you be on your guard?

    I also think sound has a lot more to say when playing marines, and I think many people don't give it the attention it deserves. Many times you can hear an alien trying to sneak up on you through a vent, and if you know that's happening, waiting for it and killing it is very easy (skulks tend to take a peak first, and the rifle is brutal if the target is stationary).

    That being said, as brutal as marines can be, the alien side can be as well. If just one proper player takes a lerk, he can be devastating to the team. I tend to go lerk quickly if I have regen/cara, you dont really need spikes that much anywho, you just have to fly a bit more precise when using the bite. Further, if another player takes a fade fast, then he can also be equally devastating. Especially because a good player, in any of these 2 evos, require a small group of marines to kill.

    So it's a combination of the fade being slightly too overpowered still (at least I think), and the fact that marines have to use accumulated firepower to kill these, that makes the aliens win more. The marines become very brutal later in the game, whereas the aliens have access to the high evos (fade/lerk) very early on (if wanted), and dealing with those is simply harder, and takes time to learn.

    In the end though, the game is a lot closer to 50%50 now, than it was before. Right before the whole TB stuff happened, and the 'oldtimers' had their goes on a few servers, the win ratio seemed to be pretty even. And I think in a week or two, we will see the win ratio normalize a bit more.
  • GORGEousGORGEous Join Date: 2012-02-19 Member: 146762Members, NS2 Map Tester
    It takes 10 bullets to kill a vanilla skulk. 18 bullets to kill a carapace skulk. One point blank, direct shotgun shot at level 0.

    Marines require more teamwork. 95% of the current players are newbies. Newbies are typically quite bad at teamwork and basic gameplay.

    There are some imbalances, but nothing that is shown in the pubs currently. The pubs are just like toddlers hitting eachother with spoons. You can't tell which knife is sharper based on what we're observing from pubs.
  • JuCCiJuCCi Join Date: 2011-08-08 Member: 114961Members, NS2 Map Tester
    <!--quoteo(post=1957316:date=Aug 4 2012, 08:24 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Aug 4 2012, 08:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957316"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are some imbalances, but nothing that is shown in the pubs currently.<!--coloro:#FF00FF--><span style="color:#FF00FF"><!--/coloro--> The pubs are just like toddlers hitting eachother with spoons. You can't tell which knife is sharper based on what we're observing from pubs.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Thanks for this. It made me LoL
  • LocklearLocklear [nexzil]kerrigan Join Date: 2012-05-01 Member: 151403Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1957329:date=Aug 4 2012, 03:56 PM:name=JuCCi-PuCCi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JuCCi-PuCCi @ Aug 4 2012, 03:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957329"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks for this. It made me LoL<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    +1
  • Angelo85Angelo85 Join Date: 2012-08-03 Member: 154662Members
    Yeah like GORGEous already said, Aliens might appear easier to play because the Alien side is viable to be played lonesome cowboy style, while Marines are all about teamwork.

    Since many new players joined recently, people you meet at the moment tend to be new to the game and are more accustomed to the rambo playstyle. Hence giving an edge to the Alien team. Also lots of people don't grasp the importance of welding fellow marine players, which basically cuts the HPs of the average Marine down significantly (1 armor point equals 2 hitpoints, welding other marine players restores their armor) once the initial armor you spawn with is gone.
  • douchebagatrondouchebagatron Custom member title Join Date: 2003-12-20 Member: 24581Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    So aliens will beat marines in pubs where no one uses teamwork, but if marines are using teamwork they'd still be beat by aliens that are using teamwork. Part of it is the lag and hitreg, but I think a huge portion of it is that aliens excel at hit and run and marines can't hold areas like that. aliens can cover a huge amount of area, they don't need any players to build structures and the skulks are so quick they can rush in, take out an RT then rush out. In NS1 marines could electrify RTs which helped a lot, and also aliens relied on gorges to build structures. in NS2 we lose both of those.

    I'm not sure what the solution is, but it seems like the problem is that aliens can be everywhere at once.
  • spellman23spellman23 NS1 Theorycraft Expert Join Date: 2007-05-17 Member: 60920Members
    How Marines Win: Force Crucial engagements at key locations, making the Aliens come to them.
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited August 2012
    aliens are op in the fps front, and easier to play on the rts front.

    <!--quoteo(post=1957389:date=Aug 4 2012, 10:04 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Aug 4 2012, 10:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957389"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How Marines Win: Force Crucial engagements at key locations, making the Aliens come to them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    actually marines win by being very aggressive and forcing aliens to defend.
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I find it less of an issue of teamwork as much as marine shooting skills. Quite simply, alien movement allows them to miss many bites/swipes, but still able to retreat to fight another day. A marine that misses shots usually just dies because they can't retreat. Add in the fact that you usually need to double or triple team lerks/fades/onos to get enough dps to kill them and its no surprise that pub marine teams are losing more often.
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Members
    The aliens can get by with considerably less teamwork than the minimum marines require. However if marines do work together (and can aim) they can be very hard to beat.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1957395:date=Aug 4 2012, 07:10 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Aug 4 2012, 07:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957395"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->actually marines win by being very aggressive and forcing aliens to defend.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That sound like you said the same thing he did
  • zumbledumzumbledum Join Date: 2012-08-04 Member: 154788Members
    i think basically aliens are just more fun. they are so much more varied in the roles for each form , marines just change weapons and thats it. so most old timers seem to gravitate towards that side, and the commander... well its really hardly relevant if you can play or not if the comm sucks your Fkd from the start , having taken the time to play some 1p lan games to learn how they work i realise now i havent played a game with a marine commander that knows wtf hes doing ;)
  • OurorborosOurorboros Join Date: 2012-08-03 Member: 154653Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1957316:date=Aug 4 2012, 03:24 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Aug 4 2012, 03:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957316"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It takes 10 bullets to kill a vanilla skulk. 18 bullets to kill a carapace skulk. One point blank, direct shotgun shot at level 0.

    Marines require more teamwork. 95% of the current players are newbies. Newbies are typically quite bad at teamwork and basic gameplay.

    There are some imbalances, but nothing that is shown in the pubs currently. The pubs are just like toddlers hitting eachother with spoons. You can't tell which knife is sharper based on what we're observing from pubs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    the team work point is a good one actually, im also very new to the game but team work seems to make or break matches, the only games i've lost so far as aliens have been ones where the com isn't talking and no one is communicating.

    however, what i've also noticed, is that in every single game as a marine, bar 1, there has been very, very little communication, its weird but whenever i play marine, no one talks...
  • SebenzaSebenza Join Date: 2012-08-03 Member: 154649Members
    edited August 2012
    I'm neither a competitive nor a particularly good player. I'm just your average casual pubber with a total of maybe two or three hundred hours of NS1 experience, and to me, it feels like the marines' only chance of winning right now is by constantly applying a lot of coordinated pressure. Without heavy armor / exoskeletons / exo suits (what's the correct name?) and without HMGs (which aren't even planned to be implemented), the marines lack later mid- to end-game toys to encounter fades and oni successfully, especially casual pub scrubs like my humble self. You can't just blame everything on bad hit detection, framerate or even bad aiming. As marines, you can't just let aliens control a third of the map and rely on winning the resource war. As soon as fades/oni appear, marines are in deep trouble as of now, and the key to winning under these circumstances is going for a quick decision.

    Oh, and regarding bad aiming: the above post calling pubbers toddlers hitting eachother with spoons and generalizing their aiming skills as terrible is some of the most arrogant BS I've ever read. I've had experience in first person shooters dating back to 1999, a couple of years competitively, and guess what, 13 years of roughly ten hours fps practise per week left their trace on my aiming skills, even if I'm just a worthless piece of ###### scrub toddler in your eyes. Maybe some people just don't feel like gaming on schedule anymore because they're in their early 30s now and have a life to live, bills to pay, a family to look after and all that scrub stuff.
  • GORGEousGORGEous Join Date: 2012-02-19 Member: 146762Members, NS2 Map Tester
    <!--quoteo(post=1957668:date=Aug 5 2012, 12:15 PM:name=Sebenza)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sebenza @ Aug 5 2012, 12:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, and regarding bad aiming: the above post calling pubbers toddlers hitting eachother with spoons and generalizing their aiming skills as terrible is some of the most arrogant BS I've ever read. I've had experience in first person shooters dating back to 1999, a couple of years competitively, and guess what, 13 years of roughly ten hours fps practise per week left their trace on my aiming skills, even if I'm just a worthless piece of ###### scrub toddler in your eyes. Maybe some people just don't feel like gaming on schedule anymore because they're in their early 30s now and have a life to live, bills to pay, a family to look after and all that scrub stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It's actually quite accurate. They're toddlers at NS2. Most of the new players don't know how to walk on the walls as skulk. They don't know how to wall jump to get more speed. They don't know how to pancake as lerk. They don't know how to set up effective gorge walls or where to do it. They don't know how to do most anything very well.

    You can get mad at an accurate generalizations of the new players who have just a few hours of NS2 under their belt, or you can understand that it was a generalization. Not all of the new players are really bad at NS2, some are just slightly bad. They'll all get better with time.

    P.S. It's important to note that 80% of what I just quoted was you just putting words into my mouth.
  • SebenzaSebenza Join Date: 2012-08-03 Member: 154649Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1957676:date=Aug 5 2012, 06:32 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Aug 5 2012, 06:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's actually quite accurate. They're toddlers at NS2. Most of the new players don't know how to walk on the walls as skulk. They don't know how to wall jump to get more speed. They don't know how to pancake as lerk. They don't know how to set up effective gorge walls or where to do it. They don't know how to do most anything very well.

    You can get mad at an accurate generalizations of the new players who have just a few hours of NS2 under their belt, or you can understand that it was a generalization. Not all of the new players are really bad at NS2, some are just slightly bad. They'll all get better with time.

    P.S. It's important to note that 80% of what I just quoted was you just putting words into my mouth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    what you're implying is pubbers = new players.

    i agree with new players = bad players, but i disagree with pubbers = new players. some pubbers out there have been doing that for quite some while. there's the flaw in your logic.
  • mushookeesmushookees Join Date: 2008-03-26 Member: 63967Members
    i played some NS1 yesterday, theres definitely something wrong with the hit detection in this game.
  • NakorsonNakorson Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140253Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I would say that alien classes are more effective on their own but marines scale better when their grouped together. And a lot of people, even people which play for a while, make the mistake to leave the base alone in late game. Especially in late game the marines have to stick together and try to utilize that they are ranged based.
  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    Teamwork? ...well, yeah, but...

    This:
    <!--quoteo(post=1957399:date=Aug 5 2012, 05:16 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Aug 5 2012, 05:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957399"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I find it less of an issue of teamwork as much as marine shooting skills. Quite simply, alien movement allows them to miss many bites/swipes, but still able to retreat to fight another day. A marine that misses shots usually just dies because they can't retreat. Add in the fact that you usually need to double or triple team lerks/fades/onos to get enough dps to kill them and its no surprise that pub marine teams are losing more often.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I feel like there's a threshold that needs to be crossed for marines to win. 50% of the team needs to be able to take on a skulk 1vs1. When that threshold is crossed, marines start running all over the map/kharaa. In the start, that is. After cara comes marines hopefully have better stuff so they can deal with it.
  • spellman23spellman23 NS1 Theorycraft Expert Join Date: 2007-05-17 Member: 60920Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1957696:date=Aug 5 2012, 10:07 AM:name=mushookees)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mushookees @ Aug 5 2012, 10:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957696"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i played some NS1 yesterday, theres definitely something wrong with the hit detection in this game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I was supremely confident at my NS1 skulk Shooting Skills. Combined with nooby Skulks, I should have no problems!

    Oh, wait, the Skulks are lag teleporting....
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