Why would you like a hidden value that is unknown? Seems more logical to me to just raise the Onos' HP and remove the hide armor, gives a much clearer indication of what your HP actually is.
<!--quoteo(post=1958848:date=Aug 7 2012, 10:35 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Aug 7 2012, 10:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958848"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why would you like a hidden value that is unknown? Seems more logical to me to just raise the Onos' HP and remove the hide armor, gives a much clearer indication of what your HP actually is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
because it allows reasonable scaling for the damage on higher tier tech marine weapons vs each life form - if there were no hide armor, high tier weapons would either be much less effective vs oni or much too effective vs lower life forms. i know that hidden values are terribad and such, but honestly what is more important is that things FEEL right. and hide armor on the onos FEELS right - small arms fire shouldn't faze this massive alien monsterbeast, but a hail of grenades and shotgun blasts might bring it down or force it to run. competitive players will find all the hidden numbers anyway, so i don't think it's such a huge deal to have them - especially when we have hidden things like damage types already.
e.g:
current onos with 600 hp 250 armor vs w3 marines: LMG: 13 dmg, 8 dmg after hide armor. Onos eHp = 1100. requires 138 bullets to kill. no hide armor: would require the onos to have ~1794 eHp for similar survivability, for example 1000 hp 400 armor. Shotgun: 23.4 dmg, 18.4 dmg after hide armor. requires 60 pellets (6 point blank blasts) to kill. no hide vs 1000 hp 400 armor onos: 77 pellets to kill.
<!--quoteo(post=1958862:date=Aug 7 2012, 10:51 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Aug 7 2012, 10:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958862"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And those numbers seem reasonable... maybe not 1000 HP 400 Armor, maybe more Armor and less HP...
The onos dies 2 quickly to shotguns currently IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
those are numbers without cara... with cara, the onos has 1700 eHp vs lmg which would require 2763 eHp with no hide armor -> 1200 Hp 780 armor -> 93 shotgun pellets with hide vs 118 without. the effect is even more noticeable with grenades, it'd take like twice as many grenades to kill an onos.
Shouldnt really be grenading an onos... and yea with carapace its somewhat OP so you just dial back carapace a bit... Not seeing where the hide armor is really adding anything to the onos.. just makes it harder to balance mid/late game IMO since it needs lowish HP to be kill able by rifles, but then gets torn up by shotguns/gls
looking through the balance file, they raised the onos hide armor back up to 6, and shotty damage per pellet is 17 instead of 18.
let's take a look at the effects of balancing hide armor 6 vs w0 and w3:
hide armor eHp 1100 vs w0 LMG/shotty/GL marines lmg = 4 (10-6) dmg per bullet-> 275 bullets to kill. shotty = 11 (17-6) dmg per pellet -> 100 pellets to kill before damage falloff. grenade = 124 (130-6) dmg per grenade -> 9 grenades to kill.
no hide armor lmg = 10 dmg per bullet -> 275 bullets to kill -> onos eHp = 2750 shotty = 17 dmg per pellet -> 162 bullets to kill. an increase in survivability of 62% grenade = 130 dmg per grenade -> 22 grenades to kill. (+144%!)
as you can see, in the quest to get rid of a hidden variable, you make balancing the onos a nightmare. if you raise shotty and grenade launcher damage to compensate, then they start 1-shotting lower life forms. if you increase lower life form health to compensate, then LMGs won't stand a chance against them. if you leave them as is, high tier weapons underperform horribly relative to their res costs and onos becomes a hard counter to marine weapon tech.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1958807:date=Aug 7 2012, 06:52 PM:name=Ryne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ryne @ Aug 7 2012, 06:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958807"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ah, didnt know the intricacies of hide armor. I still think more pellets should be added, obviously youll have to work something out with the hide armor to "continue the balance"...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you increase the amount of pellets, you can always just adjust the damage per pellet based on the ratio of difference..
I think this would end a lot of the frustration that comes with the shotgun, of those "wth i shot at point blank twice and barely hit him!" situations. For an exaggerated approach, think of 3 pellets spread out, that do the same amount of the maximum possible damage output of the current shotgun. Your aim won't matter one bit as more than likely 2/3 of those shots wont land, despite all 3 adding up the same amount of damage.
Now flip that example around the other way: double the amount of pellets and adjust the damage accordingly.. you will hit far more often and more importantly your AIM will count for something finally! All while still keeping the role of the shotgun = more damage up close, less damage far away.
That's my take on it, at least. p.s. you can also increase the size of the spread slightly to adjust if its too compacted
<!--quoteo(post=1958908:date=Aug 7 2012, 09:29 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Aug 7 2012, 09:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958908"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->looking through the balance file, they raised the onos hide armor back up to 6, and shotty damage per pellet is 17 instead of 18.
let's take a look at the effects of balancing hide armor 6 vs w0 and w3:
hide armor eHp 1100 vs w0 LMG/shotty/GL marines lmg = 4 (10-6) dmg per bullet-> 275 bullets to kill. shotty = 11 (17-6) dmg per pellet -> 100 pellets to kill before damage falloff. grenade = 124 (130-6) dmg per grenade -> 9 grenades to kill.
no hide armor lmg = 10 dmg per bullet -> 275 bullets to kill -> onos eHp = 2750 shotty = 17 dmg per pellet -> 162 bullets to kill. an increase in survivability of 62% grenade = 130 dmg per grenade -> 22 grenades to kill. (+144%!)
as you can see, in the quest to get rid of a hidden variable, you make balancing the onos a nightmare. if you raise shotty and grenade launcher damage to compensate, then they start 1-shotting lower life forms. if you increase lower life form health to compensate, then LMGs won't stand a chance against them. if you leave them as is, high tier weapons underperform horribly relative to their res costs and onos becomes a hard counter to marine weapon tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see why you'd bring the GL into this. And imo I'd only do calcs for onos with carapace.
<!--quoteo(post=1958918:date=Aug 8 2012, 12:45 AM:name={GGs} Chicken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ({GGs} Chicken @ Aug 8 2012, 12:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958918"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see why you'd bring the GL into this. And imo I'd only do calcs for onos with carapace.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i brought the gl in because visually and research wise it represents the top tier of marine tech. it takes more aim to land a direct hit with it than it does a shotty, so why would anyone pick a GL (which already is countered by whips) if the shotty is the answer to everything, and cheaper/faster to acquire? obviously you don't go onos hunting with GL's, but they should at least be effective against them. back when the GLs were attachments they were quite effective vs onos.
You can have them up within like 2 minutes so I wouldn't consider them top tier at all. Whips are pretty bad counters atm, you can clear a whole room full of whips with a GL, unless it's in a corner and you for whatever reason can't go in. It's an anti-structure weapon first and foremost so it shouldn't be in a discussion like this imo. Same way that flamers aren't.
GL has no point in a discussion about onos balance tbh... The minigun is arguably more relevant and isnt here at all...
I still believe that all the hide armor does is make balancing it harder currently because the LMG is weak against it, and other weapons much better just because of the hide armor. Are you saying the onos is balanced getting 7 shot by w3 shotgun? or 9 shot with cara??
<!--quoteo(post=1958786:date=Aug 7 2012, 08:20 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Aug 7 2012, 08:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958786"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, I really like the 3 + 7 distribution from Soylent's algorithm. Though, I've always thought that 10 pellets were always a bit low for the shotgun. I wouldn't mind seeing the same '3 + 7' distribution but for something like 20 or 25 pellets (so you don't get as much empty space).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
5 center, 7 mid, 13 wide, whole thing rotated at random angle.
Every other yellow circle segment has a pellet; the mid and outer pellets are randomly placed within their respective circle segments. This ensures that they don't clump too much.
(for the last one, code for the others is similar) <!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->% Select subplot. axis equal; selectsub = @(n) eval(['subplot(2,2,n); hold on; axis ([-1,1,-1,1])']);
% Best known circle packing + random offsets, 27 points r27 = 0.169307931135;
selectsub(1) plot( coords27(:,1), coords27(:,2), '.') plot(sin(2*pi*[0:1024]/1024), cos(2*pi*[0:1024]/1024), 'r-'); for i = 1:27 plot(coords27(i,1)+ r27*distance(i).*sin(2*pi*[0:1024]/1024), coords27(i,2) + r27*distance(i).*cos(2*pi*[0:1024]/1024), 'g-') end; title('Best known circle packing on circle')
for i = 2:4 % Uniform disk offsets for the green disks shown in the first graph. ang = 2*pi*rand(27,1); dist = r27*distance.*(sqrt(rand(27,1))); offs = [[dist.*cos(ang)] [dist.*sin(ang)]];
Oh thank you. Now I got the feeling that I'm always the only one that shoots at an onos. 3 Magazines and a bit to kill an onos? With cara maybe 4? So if 4 marines emptying one clip to an onos it should be dead? If they can time it right, that is 3 seconds to kill it. So either the hitreg is really bugged or I'm the only one that actually shoots at an onos.
On the GL-topic: The GL is an anti-structure weapon, yes. But that is not because it does no damage to life forms. It's because it is very difficult to hit any life forms. But the onos is greater than every alien building (besides the hive). So why does the GL not count against an onos? The numbers make it obvious. It is a good weapon against the onos and not difficult to hit. If you don't use it against one, it's your own fault.
On the SG-topic: The SG should be the best weapon for killing life forms at short range. But having a weapon that one-shots skulks with ease isn't fun in any way. We sure agree, that every weapon has its own job. No weapon should be generally better than another. Every weapon has pros and cons. So why should the SG be superior to the LMG in any way? Oh what? It isn't superior in long-range? Ohhhh sure, that is because nearly every alien is melee only. Long-range is such an advantage!!!1 Come on, try to use logic. The SG should be good against higher life forms. (you pay res for it, they pay res for it) But you should need the LMG to be better against skulks. The shotgun isn't even that bad against skulks right now. It just isn't a death ray and that is right that way. It should have a downside in comparison to the LMG. And having it not easily one-shot skulks is a good one from both perspectives. You shouldn't be able to go rambo, just because you can afford a shotgun. Together with LMG marines it is deadly even against skulks.
That said, I think a more equally (reliable) distributed spread would be nice, but only when the current balance is maintained.
<!--quoteo(post=1959051:date=Aug 8 2012, 05:24 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Aug 8 2012, 05:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959051"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No weapon should be generally better than another.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If everything is a sidegrade it all needs to be free from the armory.
<!--quoteo(post=1959051:date=Aug 8 2012, 05:24 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Aug 8 2012, 05:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959051"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Every weapon has pros and cons. So why should the SG be superior to the LMG in any way?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It should be on the whole a better weapon than the LMG, because the LMG is free. That does not mean sniper shotgun or that it's better in all conceivable situations; it means that you have to balance it so that there is a clear reason to buy a shotgun, it's not just a wash.
Even a pure upgrade, say a better version of the LMG that does 20% more damage, would not obsolete the LMG because it costs resources. You can have a slightly better weapon now, or you can have a jet pack later, choose.
<!--quoteo(post=1959051:date=Aug 8 2012, 03:24 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Aug 8 2012, 03:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959051"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the SG-topic: The SG should be the best weapon for killing life forms at short range. But having a weapon that one-shots skulks with ease isn't fun in any way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clarifications: * I think it should one-shot IF you land all or almost all of the pellets. That requires the Skulk to be in Bite Range, or weapon upgrades to allow for fewer pellets to hit and still net the kill. But getting a hit at that close range while the Skulk is strafing around is HARD. * Also, Skulks have other methods of closing the gaps and getting in bites before the Shotgunner can whip around to blast it.
In short, it isn't easy, but point-blank shotguns not killing Skulks (no upgrades on either side) is a trifle odd since they can nom the Marine rather quickly. Marines with a shotgun typically get 2 shells off at most before death to a good Skulk in NS1. Worse if they had focus or prior damage (Leap and Gas).
The shotgun is partially a lateral upgrade since it is ineffective at long range and while overall higher DPS fires these in bursts. Timing your shots becomes crucial to maximize your damage, ensuring each shot maximizes the damage.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/Nz2sA.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I really like this one. Most of the pellets are going to be at or near the center where you aimed, but there is enough spread where you are only going to get 100% pellet hits at very close range. Now, we just have to divide the damage by pellets (170 dmg/25 pellets = 6.8 ~7 dmg/pellet) and I think we have something workable. Basically, this setup means that - If you hit the 5 center/9 middle (or makeup the misses with some of the far pellets) you can kill a vanilla skulk (e.g. 14 pellets x 7 dmg = 98 dmg > 70hp + 2x10ap = 90 eHp) or a cara skulk at close range by landing all the pellets (e.g. 25 pellets x 7 dmg = 175 dmg > 70hp + 50ap = 170 eHp).
The targeted erroneous point is in the title of this thread imo... the SPREAD is just way to much. If a fade is on the run, you might hit it with 1 or 2 pellets because the grouping is just so humongous at distance.
I mean look at the skulk test in the video. The skulk is only 4m away and still 5 pellets miss, given this was just unlucky but even a sawed-off shotgun would have hit that skulk with all its pellets.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
The spread should be big, else you lose some of it's role and its a jack of all trades. Instead, follow whats been suggested in here and simply increase the pellet count and then adjust the damage per accordingly. Now you can hit things more often but it still retains it's role of being weaker at a distance. (instead of simply useless or frustrating)
I think the spread is tighter than what it was in NS1, but in NS1 the shotty had a higher ROF to compensate.
Even so it's not so much the total amount of the spread as it is the inconsistency of the spread pattern. You can't have 40% of the damage clumped into a corner on a randomly rotating spread like that. It makes the shotgun extremely random and unreliable at times because you never know if you're gonna get lucky with that corner or not.
There's a lot of great suggestions in this thread and I hope someone at UWE read it. The distributions Yuuki made are great, any kind of spread should be symmetrical IMO to improve consistency. Maybe even add more pellets to the shotgun while keeping the damage the same (20 pellets @ 8.5 dmg each instead of 10 @ 17 each).
I like 17 pellets @10 damage each. It's important to consider the onos' hide armor as you don't want the shotgun to be impotent against the onos. This would reduce a w0 shotgun from 110 damage per shot to 68 damage per shot. A big nerf, but the shotgun is probably overpowered against the onos currently anyway.
Dont see how the shotgun spread could be larger in NS1, when you could oneshot skulks from decent range in NS1 with much greater consistency, and they were much smaller.
Shotgun needs to be able to oneshot skulks outside of bite range, even if only just outside it. Rather see the balance of shotgun adjusted in other ways like cost then see it get nerfed with regards to damage or effectiveness.
<!--quoteo(post=1965596:date=Aug 21 2012, 03:15 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Aug 21 2012, 03:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965596"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dont see how the shotgun spread could be larger in NS1, when you could oneshot skulks from decent range in NS1 with much greater consistency, and they were much smaller.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You had some pellets in a tight cluster in the center and some pellets that went VERY wide.
Someone made a crosshair for the shotty that put a ring around each pellet(the pattern was always the same). It'd be interesting if that could be dug up.
There we go. Not sure if this IMG tag worked, otherwise go here: <a href="http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=72439&start=0&p=1102586&#entry1102586" target="_blank">http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/in...p;#entry1102586</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1965594:date=Aug 21 2012, 01:12 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Aug 21 2012, 01:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965594"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like 17 pellets @10 damage each. It's important to consider the onos' hide armor as you don't want the shotgun to be impotent against the onos. This would reduce a w0 shotgun from 110 damage per shot to 68 damage per shot. A big nerf, but the shotgun is probably overpowered against the onos currently anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. I got a few solo onos kills with shotgun jetpack the other day on docking. It was way too easy.
less pellets = more consistency. Anywhere from 12-16 is good. You can get even more consistent by adding damage falloff over range which allows you to remove more pellets, that's what TF2 does. 9 Pellets arranged in a grid pattern for all the shotgun type weapons.
Comments
i like hide armor.
because it allows reasonable scaling for the damage on higher tier tech marine weapons vs each life form - if there were no hide armor, high tier weapons would either be much less effective vs oni or much too effective vs lower life forms. i know that hidden values are terribad and such, but honestly what is more important is that things FEEL right. and hide armor on the onos FEELS right - small arms fire shouldn't faze this massive alien monsterbeast, but a hail of grenades and shotgun blasts might bring it down or force it to run. competitive players will find all the hidden numbers anyway, so i don't think it's such a huge deal to have them - especially when we have hidden things like damage types already.
e.g:
current onos with 600 hp 250 armor vs w3 marines:
LMG: 13 dmg, 8 dmg after hide armor. Onos eHp = 1100. requires 138 bullets to kill.
no hide armor: would require the onos to have ~1794 eHp for similar survivability, for example 1000 hp 400 armor.
Shotgun: 23.4 dmg, 18.4 dmg after hide armor. requires 60 pellets (6 point blank blasts) to kill.
no hide vs 1000 hp 400 armor onos: 77 pellets to kill.
The onos dies 2 quickly to shotguns currently IMO.
The onos dies 2 quickly to shotguns currently IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
those are numbers without cara... with cara, the onos has 1700 eHp vs lmg which would require 2763 eHp with no hide armor -> 1200 Hp 780 armor -> 93 shotgun pellets with hide vs 118 without. the effect is even more noticeable with grenades, it'd take like twice as many grenades to kill an onos.
let's take a look at the effects of balancing hide armor 6 vs w0 and w3:
hide armor eHp 1100 vs w0 LMG/shotty/GL marines
lmg = 4 (10-6) dmg per bullet-> 275 bullets to kill.
shotty = 11 (17-6) dmg per pellet -> 100 pellets to kill before damage falloff.
grenade = 124 (130-6) dmg per grenade -> 9 grenades to kill.
no hide armor
lmg = 10 dmg per bullet -> 275 bullets to kill -> onos eHp = 2750
shotty = 17 dmg per pellet -> 162 bullets to kill. an increase in survivability of 62%
grenade = 130 dmg per grenade -> 22 grenades to kill. (+144%!)
hide armor vs w3
lmg = 7 dmg -> 158 bullets
shotty = 16.1 dmg -> 69 pellets
grenade = 163 dmg -> 7 grenades
no hide armor vs w3
lmg = 13 dmg -> 212 bullets
shotty = 22.1 dmg -> 125 pellets (an 81% increase!)
grenade = 169 dmg -> 17 grenades (+142%)
the numbers just go up with carapace.
as you can see, in the quest to get rid of a hidden variable, you make balancing the onos a nightmare. if you raise shotty and grenade launcher damage to compensate, then they start 1-shotting lower life forms. if you increase lower life form health to compensate, then LMGs won't stand a chance against them. if you leave them as is, high tier weapons underperform horribly relative to their res costs and onos becomes a hard counter to marine weapon tech.
If you increase the amount of pellets, you can always just adjust the damage per pellet based on the ratio of difference..
I think this would end a lot of the frustration that comes with the shotgun, of those "wth i shot at point blank twice and barely hit him!" situations.
For an exaggerated approach, think of 3 pellets spread out, that do the same amount of the maximum possible damage output of the current shotgun.
Your aim won't matter one bit as more than likely 2/3 of those shots wont land, despite all 3 adding up the same amount of damage.
Now flip that example around the other way: double the amount of pellets and adjust the damage accordingly.. you will hit far more often and more importantly your AIM will count for something finally!
All while still keeping the role of the shotgun = more damage up close, less damage far away.
That's my take on it, at least.
p.s. you can also increase the size of the spread slightly to adjust if its too compacted
edit: Nice write up wheee...
let's take a look at the effects of balancing hide armor 6 vs w0 and w3:
hide armor eHp 1100 vs w0 LMG/shotty/GL marines
lmg = 4 (10-6) dmg per bullet-> 275 bullets to kill.
shotty = 11 (17-6) dmg per pellet -> 100 pellets to kill before damage falloff.
grenade = 124 (130-6) dmg per grenade -> 9 grenades to kill.
no hide armor
lmg = 10 dmg per bullet -> 275 bullets to kill -> onos eHp = 2750
shotty = 17 dmg per pellet -> 162 bullets to kill. an increase in survivability of 62%
grenade = 130 dmg per grenade -> 22 grenades to kill. (+144%!)
hide armor vs w3
lmg = 7 dmg -> 158 bullets
shotty = 16.1 dmg -> 69 pellets
grenade = 163 dmg -> 7 grenades
no hide armor vs w3
lmg = 13 dmg -> 212 bullets
shotty = 22.1 dmg -> 125 pellets (an 81% increase!)
grenade = 169 dmg -> 17 grenades (+142%)
the numbers just go up with carapace.
as you can see, in the quest to get rid of a hidden variable, you make balancing the onos a nightmare. if you raise shotty and grenade launcher damage to compensate, then they start 1-shotting lower life forms. if you increase lower life form health to compensate, then LMGs won't stand a chance against them. if you leave them as is, high tier weapons underperform horribly relative to their res costs and onos becomes a hard counter to marine weapon tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see why you'd bring the GL into this. And imo I'd only do calcs for onos with carapace.
i brought the gl in because visually and research wise it represents the top tier of marine tech. it takes more aim to land a direct hit with it than it does a shotty, so why would anyone pick a GL (which already is countered by whips) if the shotty is the answer to everything, and cheaper/faster to acquire? obviously you don't go onos hunting with GL's, but they should at least be effective against them. back when the GLs were attachments they were quite effective vs onos.
I still believe that all the hide armor does is make balancing it harder currently because the LMG is weak against it, and other weapons much better just because of the hide armor. Are you saying the onos is balanced getting 7 shot by w3 shotgun? or 9 shot with cara??
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/VBaAW.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
5 center, 7 mid, 13 wide, whole thing rotated at random angle.
Every other yellow circle segment has a pellet; the mid and outer pellets are randomly placed within their respective circle segments. This ensures that they don't clump too much.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->% Select subplot.
axis equal;
selectsub = @(n) eval(['subplot(2,2,n); hold on; axis ([-1,1,-1,1])']);
% Manually picked 5
r5 = [0.13 0.15 0.12 0.14 0.11];
ang5 = 2*pi*[0:4]/5;
man5 = [[r5.*cos(ang5)]' [r5.*sin(ang5)]' ]
% 20 wide + rand rot.
for i = 1:4
% 7 mid
ang7 = 2*pi*([0:6]+0.5*rand(1,7))/7;
r7 = 0.25 + rand(1,7)*0.3;
mid7 = [[r7.*cos(ang7)]' [r7.*sin(ang7)]' ];
% 13 far
ang13 = 2*pi*([0:12]+0.5*rand(1,13))/13;
r13 = 0.55 + rand(1,13)*0.45;
far13 = [[r13.*cos(ang13)]' [r13.*sin(ang13)]' ];
coords25 = [man5; mid7; far13];
ra = 2*pi*rand(1,1);
rot = [cos(ra) -sin(ra); sin(ra) cos(ra)];
coords25 = coords25*rot;
selectsub(i)
plot( coords25(:,1), coords25(:,2), '.')
plot(sin(2*pi*[0:1024]/1024), cos(2*pi*[0:1024]/1024), 'm-');
plot(0.55*sin(2*pi*[0:1024]/1024), 0.55*cos(2*pi*[0:1024]/1024), 'r-');
plot(0.25*sin(2*pi*[0:1024]/1024), 0.25*cos(2*pi*[0:1024]/1024), 'g-');
for j = 1:7
ang1 = -ra + 2*pi*[0:6]/7;
ang2 = -ra + (2*pi*([0:6]+0.5))/7;
plot( [0.25*cos(ang1(j)) 0.55*cos(ang1(j))], [0.25*sin(ang1(j)) 0.55*sin(ang1(j))], 'y-');
plot( [0.25*cos(ang2(j)) 0.55*cos(ang2(j))], [0.25*sin(ang2(j)) 0.55*sin(ang2(j))], 'y-');
end;
for j = 1:13
ang1 = -ra + 2*pi*[0:12]/13;
ang2 = -ra + (2*pi*([0:12]+0.5))/13;
plot( [0.55*cos(ang1(j)) cos(ang1(j))], [0.55*sin(ang1(j)) sin(ang1(j))], 'y-');
plot( [0.55*cos(ang2(j)) cos(ang2(j))], [0.55*sin(ang2(j)) sin(ang2(j))], 'y-');
end;
title('5 manual + 7 mid + 13 far, random rotation')
end;<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/xiFOK.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/3kYJo.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/iMp4S.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Alternative 27, larger random offsets for points farther from center.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/g6oPO.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
(for the last one, code for the others is similar)
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->% Select subplot.
axis equal;
selectsub = @(n) eval(['subplot(2,2,n); hold on; axis ([-1,1,-1,1])']);
% Best known circle packing + random offsets, 27 points
r27 = 0.169307931135;
coords27 = [-0.169307931134573046568970317658 -0.813255272181406707701706095479
0.169307931134573046568970317658 -0.813255272181406707701706095479
-0.479791070285106731907464398760 -0.678122291442034080573555684376
0.479791070285106731907464398760 -0.678122291442034080573555684376
-0.059421572851300592700294175453 -0.492965262278635003876614207784
0.710550659306231702321851335821 -0.430310438910564519399614358276
0.269540763452463179717142662968 -0.412687721995896268791599613626
-0.727935101263296508418785010087 -0.400199702179696148358101858110
-0.392936867664034612620977641884 -0.350834880032222802234648491879
0.500300352473588150131529600029 -0.164875869464426707617658287526
-0.114050536806137007547923063882 -0.158785103565556257950007891533
-0.827166666403869714361284540314 -0.076450109654810500015164488696
0.827166666403869714361284540314 -0.076450109654810500015164488696
-0.492168432804607818563477172110 -0.027085287507337153891711122466
0.194537201833383270751491656045 -0.019378110406588654614782483732
-0.080486665027246263203568592163 0.178163213972144912564790375265
0.456631226742206877115674779646 0.195022039517263468874849754070
-0.788953691038012821612204423220 0.260002666665976799577452646656
0.788953691038012821612204423220 0.260002666665976799577452646656
-0.397209653890906284415380604192 0.297943222761371535001764453713
0.222627669352144638846334509142 0.439773009503233422683310736091
-0.107363484809553537510551958145 0.515710749496649509852306779405
-0.619645759903439775043234105562 0.553252605515429908124253448822
0.619645759903439775043234105562 0.553252605515429908124253448822
-0.347375596118762982453820141554 0.754572401096844580588720173072
0.347375596118762982453820141554 0.754572401096844580588720173072
0.017384441957064806096933674267 0.830510141090260667757716216386];
distance = sqrt(coords27(:,1).^2 + coords27(:,2).^2)
selectsub(1)
plot( coords27(:,1), coords27(:,2), '.')
plot(sin(2*pi*[0:1024]/1024), cos(2*pi*[0:1024]/1024), 'r-');
for i = 1:27
plot(coords27(i,1)+ r27*distance(i).*sin(2*pi*[0:1024]/1024), coords27(i,2) + r27*distance(i).*cos(2*pi*[0:1024]/1024), 'g-')
end;
title('Best known circle packing on circle')
for i = 2:4
% Uniform disk offsets for the green disks shown in the first graph.
ang = 2*pi*rand(27,1);
dist = r27*distance.*(sqrt(rand(27,1)));
offs = [[dist.*cos(ang)] [dist.*sin(ang)]];
rot = 2*pi*rand(1,1);
rot = [cos(rot) sin(rot); sin(rot) -cos(rot)];
coords27offs = offs + coords27*rot;
selectsub(i)
plot( coords27offs(:,1), coords27offs(:,2), '.')
plot(sin(2*pi*[0:1024]/1024), cos(2*pi*[0:1024]/1024), 'r-');
title('rotation + offsets')
end;<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/Nz2sA.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Plot from 200 trials(~density plot)
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/3IuDK.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->% Select subplot.
axis equal;
selectsub = @(n) eval(['subplot(2,2,n); hold on; axis ([-1,1,-1,1])']);
% Manually picked 5
r5 = [0.16 0.06 0.09 0.12 0.03];
ang5 = 2*pi*[0:4]/5;
man5 = [[r5.*cos(ang5)]' [r5.*sin(ang5)]' ]
% 20 wide + rand rot.
for i = 1:4
% 9 mid
ang9 = 2*pi*([0:8]+0.5*rand(1,9))/9;
r9 = 0.20 + rand(1,9)*0.35;
mid9 = [[r9.*cos(ang9)]' [r9.*sin(ang9)]' ];
% 11 far
ang11 = 2*pi*([0:10]+0.5*rand(1,11))/11;
r11 = 0.55 + rand(1,11)*0.45;
far11 = [[r11.*cos(ang11)]' [r11.*sin(ang11)]' ];
coords25 = [man5; mid9; far11];
ra = 2*pi*rand(1,1);
rot = [cos(ra) -sin(ra); sin(ra) cos(ra)];
coords25 = coords25*rot;
selectsub(i)
plot( coords25(:,1), coords25(:,2), '.')
plot(sin(2*pi*[0:1024]/1024), cos(2*pi*[0:1024]/1024), 'm-');
plot(0.55*sin(2*pi*[0:1024]/1024), 0.55*cos(2*pi*[0:1024]/1024), 'r-');
plot(0.20*sin(2*pi*[0:1024]/1024), 0.20*cos(2*pi*[0:1024]/1024), 'g-');
for j = 1:9
ang1 = -ra + 2*pi*[0:8]/9;
ang2 = -ra + (2*pi*([0:8]+0.5))/9;
plot( [0.20*cos(ang1(j)) 0.55*cos(ang1(j))], [0.20*sin(ang1(j)) 0.55*sin(ang1(j))], 'y-');
plot( [0.20*cos(ang2(j)) 0.55*cos(ang2(j))], [0.20*sin(ang2(j)) 0.55*sin(ang2(j))], 'y-');
end;
for j = 1:11
ang1 = -ra + 2*pi*[0:10]/11;
ang2 = -ra + (2*pi*([0:10]+0.5))/11;
plot( [0.55*cos(ang1(j)) cos(ang1(j))], [0.55*sin(ang1(j)) sin(ang1(j))], 'y-');
plot( [0.55*cos(ang2(j)) cos(ang2(j))], [0.55*sin(ang2(j)) sin(ang2(j))], 'y-');
end;
title('5 manual + 9 mid + 11 far, random rotation')
end;<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
lmg = 7 dmg -> 158 bullets
shotty = 16.1 dmg -> 69 pellets
grenade = 163 dmg -> 7 grenades<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh thank you. Now I got the feeling that I'm always the only one that shoots at an onos. 3 Magazines and a bit to kill an onos? With cara maybe 4? So if 4 marines emptying one clip to an onos it should be dead? If they can time it right, that is 3 seconds to kill it. So either the hitreg is really bugged or I'm the only one that actually shoots at an onos.
On the GL-topic: The GL is an anti-structure weapon, yes. But that is not because it does no damage to life forms. It's because it is very difficult to hit any life forms. But the onos is greater than every alien building (besides the hive). So why does the GL not count against an onos? The numbers make it obvious. It is a good weapon against the onos and not difficult to hit. If you don't use it against one, it's your own fault.
On the SG-topic: The SG should be the best weapon for killing life forms at short range. But having a weapon that one-shots skulks with ease isn't fun in any way. We sure agree, that every weapon has its own job. No weapon should be generally better than another. Every weapon has pros and cons. So why should the SG be superior to the LMG in any way? Oh what? It isn't superior in long-range? Ohhhh sure, that is because nearly every alien is melee only. Long-range is such an advantage!!!1 Come on, try to use logic. The SG should be good against higher life forms. (you pay res for it, they pay res for it) But you should need the LMG to be better against skulks. The shotgun isn't even that bad against skulks right now. It just isn't a death ray and that is right that way. It should have a downside in comparison to the LMG. And having it not easily one-shot skulks is a good one from both perspectives. You shouldn't be able to go rambo, just because you can afford a shotgun. Together with LMG marines it is deadly even against skulks.
That said, I think a more equally (reliable) distributed spread would be nice, but only when the current balance is maintained.
If everything is a sidegrade it all needs to be free from the armory.
<!--quoteo(post=1959051:date=Aug 8 2012, 05:24 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Aug 8 2012, 05:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959051"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Every weapon has pros and cons. So why should the SG be superior to the LMG in any way?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It should be on the whole a better weapon than the LMG, because the LMG is free. That does not mean sniper shotgun or that it's better in all conceivable situations; it means that you have to balance it so that there is a clear reason to buy a shotgun, it's not just a wash.
Even a pure upgrade, say a better version of the LMG that does 20% more damage, would not obsolete the LMG because it costs resources. You can have a slightly better weapon now, or you can have a jet pack later, choose.
Clarifications:
* I think it should one-shot IF you land all or almost all of the pellets. That requires the Skulk to be in Bite Range, or weapon upgrades to allow for fewer pellets to hit and still net the kill. But getting a hit at that close range while the Skulk is strafing around is HARD.
* Also, Skulks have other methods of closing the gaps and getting in bites before the Shotgunner can whip around to blast it.
In short, it isn't easy, but point-blank shotguns not killing Skulks (no upgrades on either side) is a trifle odd since they can nom the Marine rather quickly. Marines with a shotgun typically get 2 shells off at most before death to a good Skulk in NS1. Worse if they had focus or prior damage (Leap and Gas).
The shotgun is partially a lateral upgrade since it is ineffective at long range and while overall higher DPS fires these in bursts. Timing your shots becomes crucial to maximize your damage, ensuring each shot maximizes the damage.
Obviously this is all personal opinion
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/Nz2sA.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like this one. Most of the pellets are going to be at or near the center where you aimed, but there is enough spread where you are only going to get 100% pellet hits at very close range. Now, we just have to divide the damage by pellets (170 dmg/25 pellets = 6.8 ~7 dmg/pellet) and I think we have something workable. Basically, this setup means that
- If you hit the 5 center/9 middle (or makeup the misses with some of the far pellets) you can kill a vanilla skulk (e.g. 14 pellets x 7 dmg = 98 dmg > 70hp + 2x10ap = 90 eHp) or a cara skulk at close range by landing all the pellets (e.g. 25 pellets x 7 dmg = 175 dmg > 70hp + 50ap = 170 eHp).
I mean look at the skulk test in the video. The skulk is only 4m away and still 5 pellets miss, given this was just unlucky but even a sawed-off shotgun would have hit that skulk with all its pellets.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttdqvc2ayQI&t=1m50s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttdqvc2ayQI&t=1m50s</a>
Instead, follow whats been suggested in here and simply increase the pellet count and then adjust the damage per accordingly. Now you can hit things more often but it still retains it's role of being weaker at a distance. (instead of simply useless or frustrating)
Even so it's not so much the total amount of the spread as it is the inconsistency of the spread pattern. You can't have 40% of the damage clumped into a corner on a randomly rotating spread like that. It makes the shotgun extremely random and unreliable at times because you never know if you're gonna get lucky with that corner or not.
There's a lot of great suggestions in this thread and I hope someone at UWE read it. The distributions Yuuki made are great, any kind of spread should be symmetrical IMO to improve consistency. Maybe even add more pellets to the shotgun while keeping the damage the same (20 pellets @ 8.5 dmg each instead of 10 @ 17 each).
Shotgun needs to be able to oneshot skulks outside of bite range, even if only just outside it. Rather see the balance of shotgun adjusted in other ways like cost then see it get nerfed with regards to damage or effectiveness.
You had some pellets in a tight cluster in the center and some pellets that went VERY wide.
Someone made a crosshair for the shotty that put a ring around each pellet(the pattern was always the same). It'd be interesting if that could be dug up.
<img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/uploads/post-19-1086367370.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
There we go. Not sure if this IMG tag worked, otherwise go here: <a href="http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=72439&start=0&p=1102586&#entry1102586" target="_blank">http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/in...p;#entry1102586</a>
I agree. I got a few solo onos kills with shotgun jetpack the other day on docking. It was way too easy.