Marine squads
Khyron
Join Date: 2012-02-02 Member: 143308Members
Join Date: 2012-02-02 Member: 143308Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Efficacy vs. individualism</div>I got to thinking about the effectiveness of the GL in a previous post.
It's really hard to get ideal use of GLs in pubs. So for example I'd want a couple of shotgun/rifles guarding each GL. I'd want the GL to shoot at structures and the shotgun/rifle to <b>guard</b>. It's a simple plan but seems impossible to execute. Instead, what I usually see is rifle/shotgun moving in front of the GL causing the grenades to not only miss but also self harm. The rifle/shotgun moves there to... shoot at structures. Actually, worse, they'll go to the front line to shoot at anything alien, structure or otherwise. The main thing is to shoot. So long as I'm shooting, I'm being effective, right? Anyway, two bad outcomes happen from there: the aliens get a small window of opportunity during reloading (which is a non-trivial proportion of the time, like 40%) or when someone runs out of ammo and the squad fragments. Keep in mind I'm not talking about the three stooges marines and a pro team of aliens, either. Even with a bad team of aliens streaming towards the oncoming fire one at a time, eventually they'll be there at the right moment.
It's comical.
The individualism of pub games is somewhat incompatible with the advantages that the marine late game tech brings to the table. The flamethrower is also makes a squad more powerful but an individual less combat effective. At round start, 3 rifles is 3 rifles. Late game, 3 GLs is 3 dead marines and 75 wasted pRes (exaggerated to illustrate a point). Conversely, the lifeform evolutions are mostly outright more effective than the skulk. Sure they can work better as a team too, but that's gravy. Just to be clear, I really admire these mechanics and the way they coalesce makes NS a very compelling game.
If you've read this far then I'll trust that you'll understand what I mean when I say being able to buy your own weapons adds to that individualism. Obviously I think buying your own weapons is a mandatory development now and I'm all for it. But consider the psychology in NS1 of being <i>given</i> a GL. A smart commander would dole out weapons in a manner which constructs a cohesive squad. An even smarter commander would tell the marines their roles and the reason they were being given a certain weapon. Non-compliance meant deprioritisation for future weapon drops. Squad play was so much more encouraged - a carrot <b>and</b> stick method.
So ultimately my point here is that the game needs to better provide ways for people to learn squad play. Some games do this in artificial ways like defensive bonus for nearby allies; earning points for standing around in the zone you're supposed to defend - I don't think any of that is appropriate for NS. I also don't have any compelling ideas of my own but I'm hopeful the exo will reintroduce that 'work as a squad or die alone' which was a good foundation for squad play in NS1.
How should the game encourage and improve squad play? Tools for the commander; groupings; squad objectives; HUD waypoints...
It's really hard to get ideal use of GLs in pubs. So for example I'd want a couple of shotgun/rifles guarding each GL. I'd want the GL to shoot at structures and the shotgun/rifle to <b>guard</b>. It's a simple plan but seems impossible to execute. Instead, what I usually see is rifle/shotgun moving in front of the GL causing the grenades to not only miss but also self harm. The rifle/shotgun moves there to... shoot at structures. Actually, worse, they'll go to the front line to shoot at anything alien, structure or otherwise. The main thing is to shoot. So long as I'm shooting, I'm being effective, right? Anyway, two bad outcomes happen from there: the aliens get a small window of opportunity during reloading (which is a non-trivial proportion of the time, like 40%) or when someone runs out of ammo and the squad fragments. Keep in mind I'm not talking about the three stooges marines and a pro team of aliens, either. Even with a bad team of aliens streaming towards the oncoming fire one at a time, eventually they'll be there at the right moment.
It's comical.
The individualism of pub games is somewhat incompatible with the advantages that the marine late game tech brings to the table. The flamethrower is also makes a squad more powerful but an individual less combat effective. At round start, 3 rifles is 3 rifles. Late game, 3 GLs is 3 dead marines and 75 wasted pRes (exaggerated to illustrate a point). Conversely, the lifeform evolutions are mostly outright more effective than the skulk. Sure they can work better as a team too, but that's gravy. Just to be clear, I really admire these mechanics and the way they coalesce makes NS a very compelling game.
If you've read this far then I'll trust that you'll understand what I mean when I say being able to buy your own weapons adds to that individualism. Obviously I think buying your own weapons is a mandatory development now and I'm all for it. But consider the psychology in NS1 of being <i>given</i> a GL. A smart commander would dole out weapons in a manner which constructs a cohesive squad. An even smarter commander would tell the marines their roles and the reason they were being given a certain weapon. Non-compliance meant deprioritisation for future weapon drops. Squad play was so much more encouraged - a carrot <b>and</b> stick method.
So ultimately my point here is that the game needs to better provide ways for people to learn squad play. Some games do this in artificial ways like defensive bonus for nearby allies; earning points for standing around in the zone you're supposed to defend - I don't think any of that is appropriate for NS. I also don't have any compelling ideas of my own but I'm hopeful the exo will reintroduce that 'work as a squad or die alone' which was a good foundation for squad play in NS1.
How should the game encourage and improve squad play? Tools for the commander; groupings; squad objectives; HUD waypoints...
Comments
I guess more communication will help. Ingame voice is very easy to use, and once you start using it, things will be better. I guess this will eventually help players learn tactics, and spread good squad skills to more players.
Incentivise squad play.
Marines are forced more to stick together and weld each other.
Of course there are people who cooperate and if that happens, especially spiced with commander giving out some plans then the true magic of NS2 happens and it is the best thing about the game for me =)
But I don't get why that(!) many people don't get that the game is about cooperation and teamwork, even if I ask and yell for 10 minutes to get welded or to gather a final push for a Hive/CS it rarely happens which is so frustrating, though if people actually follow then victory is imminent and immediate.
I <b>do not</b> want to get any artificial advantages for moving in a squad like armor bonuses or bonus scores and so on, that is too much, cooperating is already a lot of bonuses(in my experience it extends life time x4 at least, as well as effectiveness and fun). I'd rather have even more <b>disadvantages</b> to make people see that they shall work together, it may be overkill, but seriously, isn't the significance of teamwork bluntly obvious?
I just really hope that public games will have much more teamwork, because the major part of fun in the Game(at least for me) is teamplay, there was something like squad based system being implemented, but still, I think it must be clear that the game is not a generic deathmatch shooter, maybe some people just lack information, maybe some in-game tutorial, at least text-based, could explain that welder can repair teammate armor as well as buildings and that moving in a squad is much more safe and efficient. Though even when I try to explain it all rarely people listen to it.
This seems to be really a <b>huge</b> issue, at least from my point of view and I hope there is a good way to make the need of teamwork more obvious without giving any artificial bonuses.
My apologies if this post made no sense to You, but I hope it did =)
Same thing for moving teams in squads, it would mean very little to me, as i just say on the mike "atrium team move to crevice, data core team push crossroads", i dont have to worry about the cycling of troops causing people from different squads to be in a certain area, if im a marine even and not a commander, its quite common for me to say "warehouse skulks after we kill this rt come with me and rush ore" or simmilar.
People are all too happy to assist you, and you often catch far more flies with honey, than vinegar. All of your problems can be fixed by having a microphone.
+1
As far as more carrot analogies....howzabout a promotion/demotion mechanic accessed by the commander.
Use Case:
===============
Commander tells the AgentScarfBucket to guard the guy with the grenade launcher and proceed to this (uses waypoint) hive.
AgentScarfBucket complies and though they do not take the Hive they cause enough of a problem to distract the Aliens and more map control is gained by the marines.
Pleased as punch the commander promotes AgentScarfBucket to lieutenant.
Music plays and a very tiny tear falls out of AgentScarfBucket's eye onto his cheek, where his live in girlfriend's pet poodle licks it up.
The commander starts a phase gate and commands Lieutenant AgentScarfBucket to build it.
The new Lieutenant wanders off and kills cysts before getting eaten.
Two other marines build the phase gate and take it to the other side for a quick battle that they survive.
The commander demotes AgentScarfBucket and promotes the two other marines.
GL's just have to fire at the marines in front of them, and the ones in front deal with the rest. It's especially powerful in doorways.
THIS! Thousand times. You want teamwork? Than make the first move and actually TELL people what you want. You know, they can't read your mind. And not every one is a 100% pro player and knows everything about squad play. Its so dead simple. Just use your mic. It works for me in 90% of all cases.
If you do already use your mic and the people don't listen, than this can have three causes:
1.) English isn't their first language. Try to speak slow and clearly.
2.) You are a f...ing prick. Talk to the people with some respect and they may listen to you. (You know, there are words like "please" and "thank you".)
3.) They are simply not interested or casual gamer that may play even without sound. (They don't stay long in NS2, so don't worry.)
We don't need any more incentive to play with teamwork. It is already powerful enough. Most people that complain about missing team work aren't using the mic. So its their own fault. You want teamwork? Do something for it. For me it works nearly every time.
Hud is already full of useless indications but if you wanted to add move, arrows (orlst) indicating direction and distance (via icon size) might let people get idea where the mate is at without turning back to (possible) aliens.
But is that so that people don't read chat at all? I find it to be a bit strange, do I have to use voice to communicate in the game despite having text chat option? I still would like the teamwork to be something native for NS2, for me it feels that the Game is based on it =)
No doubt voice chat helps but it's not a silver bullet. Part of the problem I have is being able to identify what weapon someone's using. Am I alone in that? If I could tell, I'd probably complement their role without the need to talk about it.
<!--quoteo(post=1960354:date=Aug 10 2012, 07:37 PM:name=Vaelkyri)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vaelkyri @ Aug 10 2012, 07:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960354"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMO give marines a small damage/armour bonus when there are 3+ marines in close proximity to each other.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not just about being near other marines. The point I was trying to make in the original post was a) squad weapon composition and b) positioning. Thankfully I'm pretty sure the devs won't implement that kind of gimmicky feature. It would cheapen the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1961033:date=Aug 11 2012, 08:59 PM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Aug 11 2012, 08:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961033"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I generally find the situation you've just described with Shotgun/Rifle out in front of the GL's to be the most effective tactic. What you want people to do <i>would</i> be the right thing if GL's weren't so good at killing alien players, but they are.
GL's just have to fire at the marines in front of them, and the ones in front deal with the rest. It's especially powerful in doorways.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's pretty much a non-issues because a) GL only takes down skulks and b) skulks respawn fast enough that spending time killing skulks with a GL doesn't advance the course of the game for the marines. GL trumps gorgewalls and fade trumps GL. Mairnes can't 'trump' fade, but they can manage it by forming squads with shotguns. Also this is way off topic from my original point, which was about squad dynamics, not weapon roles.
The only time this would be applicable is outside of a range of the CC as some sort of auto commander award for players. Perhaps the comm could even reward players?
Sounds like a perfectly good idea and would work for sure.
I'm sorry but neither of those are true at the moment, I wish they were. I'll leave this thread though now and stop detracting from the topic at hand :D
There are varying degrees of being an ###### comm, but if you expect your commander to beg his marines to play the game properly, you're gonna have a bad time. =P
I guess my point here is you're not doing the comm any special favors by following orders. Rather, you are both essential to the others enjoyment of the game.
This only really caught my eye because I've had marines get offended when I say something like, "Player X move to location Y and cap me the rt", because I didn't ask them nice enough.
The role of comming isn't to coddle marines (even though it's sometimes required to win). The comm is there to figure out how to win the game. He doesn't necessarily say please and thank you because they are trivialities in the face of an alien invasion. You're gonna do it, or we're both gonna die.
All that said, I typically do make a point of thanking rines for doing ###### grunt work that's necessary to win the game. Recapping downed RT's away from the front lines, building in base, expertly executing a stealth mission to set up a phase gate or harrass RTs. There are certainly actions that deserve individual acknowledgment in any game of NS2, but to expect the comm to beg you to do your basic job, is unreasonable.
-Locke
But in all honesty there is a world of difference between a coordinated marine team and a rabble. In terms of team synergy all the feathers are in the marine cap, all aliens really get is lerk gasses.
What this game needs is a tutorial and a better marine UI.
<!--quoteo(post=1960858:date=Aug 10 2012, 09:14 PM:name=Hunter.S.T.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hunter.S.T. @ Aug 10 2012, 09:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960858"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People are all too happy to assist you, and you often catch far more flies with honey, than vinegar. All of your problems can be fixed by having a microphone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless your vinegar takes the form of a bayonet in the small of the back.
<!--quoteo(post=1961074:date=Aug 11 2012, 09:15 AM:name=GreenFlame)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GreenFlame @ Aug 11 2012, 09:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961074"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks for the replies, it seems that the microphone is the issue, because I bit shy to use it, so I just use the text chat.
But is that so that people don't read chat at all? I find it to be a bit strange, do I have to use voice to communicate in the game despite having text chat option? I still would like the teamwork to be something native for NS2, for me it feels that the Game is based on it =)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some people think that just because they can hear someone means they dont need to read, strains the brain you see. Nevermind that the words theyre ignoring are 'THEYRE BUILDING A PHASE NEXT DOOR TO HIVE!!!'
Yeah, I was like you little friend. Than I lost my fade while typing in the chat. -.-
That taught me to get over my shyness and since then I was a much better com. ;)
Oh and @ Locke:
Don't get me wrong on this point. I meant commanders, that are constantly ###### around how bad their players are. Commanders that whine because no marine can react to an ambush on the other side of the map in 5 seconds.
You are right, that you don't need to pretty please every marine. But it helps. Most people can't think far enough. You are not only their for ordering your people around. You are also there for motivating them. I let my marines constantly know when they did good. I thank them for little tasks if I have the time. This is good for the moral and this is good for winning.
Finally this game is about fun. Harshly screaming orders to other people isn't that fun at all. Believe it or not, people are more effective when they have fun and are motivated.