A few gripes.
ChickenOfWar
Join Date: 2003-04-09 Member: 15352Members
Join Date: 2003-04-09 Member: 15352Members
I'm just going to list a few issues I have with the game in it's current state for people to discuss.
Marines recover too quickly:
If an alien structure dies, for instance the hive or one of the upgrade towers, you must not only wait for the commander to set it down, but you must also wait for the thing to slowly gestate until it is a built structure. I know a gorge can speed it along but it barely has an effect compared to the effect of 2-3 marines building a structure. The hive, for example, takes forever to gestate even with a gorge or two healing it up, but as the marine I've put up a command chair (the equivalent of a hive) in 5-10 seconds with the help of a few other normal marines.
These marines didn't even have to invest any time or pres or lose combat effectiveness like an alien does when it goes gorge. They just have to be there. This applies to all marine structures, most notably the arms lab. If an alien team miraculously takes down an arms lab it can be back up in seconds, along with any upgrades that were lost, with no investment from marine players. Aliens have to spend tons of tres if their easy to snipe upgrade towers go down, and the process is not easily sped along by the aliens that may be in the area. Lots of things exacerbate this, for instance the superior marine map mobility due to phase gates and beacon.
My question is this: What balances the marines ability to come back from structure loss so easily when aliens cant do the same?
Another small gripe: Whip effectiveness against GLs.
Whips are defensive structures with a short range 'melee' attack and the ability to knock back grenades. The issue is marines all come standard with attacks that outrange the whips and the whips do a damn pisspoor job at actually defending against grenades. Flamethrowers effectively counter lerks/fades/onos. Why don't whips counter grenades? I had a game today where one guy with a jetpack was able to solo our hive by jumping between some elevated pipes and the hive itself all the while shooting grenades at it. The whips died due to grenades pretty quickly, and we weren't able to kill him fast enough.
Whips dying to grenades is embarrassing when their one purpose is to negate them.
It's also worth noting that certain upgrades for the aliens are completely imbalanced, I think a new system for handing them out needs to come up. Lemme try to explain... Aliens are supposed to get their map mobility from celerity yes? Marines get something similar in the form of phase gates and beacons. This sounds balanced (even though celerity doesn't compare at all to phase gates/beacon) until you factor in the fact that aliens need to now choose between one necessary upgrade or another, a choice marines do not have to make. And when faced with the choice of getting the far superior adrenaline or the lackluster celerity (when maybe before they worked together nicely) you always choose adrenaline.
It's a binary choice, hell it's actually just the illusion of choice! Either you get carapace/adrenaline and you're effective, or you dont and you're not effective. Marines don't have this choice, they have their one tech tree and all the options they need readily available to them. This imbalance is underlined especially with late game lerk, that needs both carapace and regeneration. If you choose cara you have to fly back to the hive after a few seconds of combat, making you useless 80% of the time since you spend so long away from the fight. If you choose regen you get one shotted by a level 3 shotgun + stray fire.
Rather than give us the illusion of choice by limiting our choices between the few good upgrades you could come up with, you need to make the other upgrades more worthwhile.
What does everyone else think about my issues? Is there something I'm missing?
Marines recover too quickly:
If an alien structure dies, for instance the hive or one of the upgrade towers, you must not only wait for the commander to set it down, but you must also wait for the thing to slowly gestate until it is a built structure. I know a gorge can speed it along but it barely has an effect compared to the effect of 2-3 marines building a structure. The hive, for example, takes forever to gestate even with a gorge or two healing it up, but as the marine I've put up a command chair (the equivalent of a hive) in 5-10 seconds with the help of a few other normal marines.
These marines didn't even have to invest any time or pres or lose combat effectiveness like an alien does when it goes gorge. They just have to be there. This applies to all marine structures, most notably the arms lab. If an alien team miraculously takes down an arms lab it can be back up in seconds, along with any upgrades that were lost, with no investment from marine players. Aliens have to spend tons of tres if their easy to snipe upgrade towers go down, and the process is not easily sped along by the aliens that may be in the area. Lots of things exacerbate this, for instance the superior marine map mobility due to phase gates and beacon.
My question is this: What balances the marines ability to come back from structure loss so easily when aliens cant do the same?
Another small gripe: Whip effectiveness against GLs.
Whips are defensive structures with a short range 'melee' attack and the ability to knock back grenades. The issue is marines all come standard with attacks that outrange the whips and the whips do a damn pisspoor job at actually defending against grenades. Flamethrowers effectively counter lerks/fades/onos. Why don't whips counter grenades? I had a game today where one guy with a jetpack was able to solo our hive by jumping between some elevated pipes and the hive itself all the while shooting grenades at it. The whips died due to grenades pretty quickly, and we weren't able to kill him fast enough.
Whips dying to grenades is embarrassing when their one purpose is to negate them.
It's also worth noting that certain upgrades for the aliens are completely imbalanced, I think a new system for handing them out needs to come up. Lemme try to explain... Aliens are supposed to get their map mobility from celerity yes? Marines get something similar in the form of phase gates and beacons. This sounds balanced (even though celerity doesn't compare at all to phase gates/beacon) until you factor in the fact that aliens need to now choose between one necessary upgrade or another, a choice marines do not have to make. And when faced with the choice of getting the far superior adrenaline or the lackluster celerity (when maybe before they worked together nicely) you always choose adrenaline.
It's a binary choice, hell it's actually just the illusion of choice! Either you get carapace/adrenaline and you're effective, or you dont and you're not effective. Marines don't have this choice, they have their one tech tree and all the options they need readily available to them. This imbalance is underlined especially with late game lerk, that needs both carapace and regeneration. If you choose cara you have to fly back to the hive after a few seconds of combat, making you useless 80% of the time since you spend so long away from the fight. If you choose regen you get one shotted by a level 3 shotgun + stray fire.
Rather than give us the illusion of choice by limiting our choices between the few good upgrades you could come up with, you need to make the other upgrades more worthwhile.
What does everyone else think about my issues? Is there something I'm missing?
Comments
Most everything you mentioned was done in the name of balance. Aliens have been OP for a long time. We have yet to see how they do this build.
I will comment on your thoughts on map controll. Aliens have better map control even without celerity no matter what. They are fast, faster with celerity, and can use vents. The beacon only works one way. So if they beacon, the pressure is taken off the aliens for a moment. Phase gates are a single point of entry that can be camped while being destroyed. The marine pops out, you kill him. If he brings buddies, you run.
I will comment on your thoughts on map controll. Aliens have better map control even without celerity no matter what. They are fast, faster with celerity, and can use vents. The beacon only works one way. So if they beacon, the pressure is taken off the aliens for a moment. Phase gates are a single point of entry that can be camped while being destroyed. The marine pops out, you kill him. If he brings buddies, you run.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know as well as I do that it isn't as simple as that. A phase gate in an area basically means theres going to be a constant marine presence there, especially right after it goes down. The marine always brings buddies. Are you supposed to always run? Aliens have not a single thing that holds ground like a phase gate does.
Beacon was balanced in NS1 by the movement chamber and it's ability to let aliens teleport to the hive currently being attacked if they 'used' the movement chamber or another hive. What balances this now?
sorry that's in ns1 so we can't have it in ns2
In my experience it really has been that simple. So lets say that I attack a phase gate. They send 3 marines to save it. That is three marines not pressuring other parts of the map. If even one of those marines stays there to guard it against my constant harassment, then that is one marine not on another part of the map.
Aliens do have things that hold ground. Aliens. Yes marines have marines, but aliens have had the advantage for a long while now and win most games as is. I don't know about this build or future builds, but there will always be a balance.
Also, phase gates don't hold rooms. Marines do. The marines just have easy access to that room. Aliens still have far better map mobility throughout the whole game. The more phase gates, the more time it takes to travel from room to room giving more benefit to aliens.
Most of what I'm posting is just commenting, so if there's obvious downsides to some stuff I say then I'm all ears because I'm pretty sure there are. =P
<!--quoteo(post=1960713:date=Aug 11 2012, 07:32 AM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Aug 11 2012, 07:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960713"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm just going to list a few issues I have with the game in it's current state for people to discuss.
Marines recover too quickly:
<Slow gestation (even with gorge) vs. fast welding>
<Gorges cost pres and change combat, compared to Comm dropped welders that all marines can use with their primary weapons.><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, you're right that welders are cheaper than gorge (and comms can drop them), and that having a welder doesn't change combat efficiency of marine players. (Other than welders do less damage to some structures than axe does, I think, though are really good for cysts). Also welders seem to compound their building/fixing much quicker than multiple gorges do.
I guess one thing that aliens have that marines don't is self-gestating constructs. A commander can rebuild armories and phase gates and extractors and all, but marines have to get to those areas (a lot of marines, if they're to make use of their compounded building) in order to build them at all. This means those marines aren't somewhere else attacking/defending.
With aliens, you could have all your team on the front lines, constantly harrassing or destroying marine buildings, keeping them repairing/rebuilding, while meanwhile your commander is building crags and spurs and resource towers without having to rely on alien forces (though a gorge can be quicker).
I don't know much this contributes to balance, but I just thought I'd bring it up as another thing to consider.
<!--quoteo(post=1960713:date=Aug 11 2012, 07:32 AM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Aug 11 2012, 07:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960713"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whip effectiveness against GLs:
<Whips not very good at deflecting nades, their primary purpose.><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've sort of noticed this too, though I don't use the grenade launcher much or build gorge walls much (which tend to rely on whips to defend against grenades), so I don't really know specifically. Part of it probably comes down to placement near corners or behind doors, but I see far more whip melee kills than grenade deflections. I think the grenade splash damage has a larger radius than the whip has deflection range. This isn't necessarily bad, as whips are good defense against grenade launchers, but don't nullify them, but it's not really clear what range whips protect from grenades I don't think...
<!--quoteo(post=1960713:date=Aug 11 2012, 07:32 AM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Aug 11 2012, 07:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960713"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alien Upgrades/Map mobility
<Marines get phase gates, beacon (also jetpacks), while Aliens get celerity>
<Carapace + Adrenaline use vs. Celerity use vs. Marine tech tree>
<Lerk Carapace + Regen no longer available><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marine Phase Gates are very powerful (though rely on local power node being up), as are jetpacks. Beacon only returns marines to the base though, as far as I know, but that's still map movement in the sense that they can get back to base for defense quicker than aliens can.
Aliens have a bit more than celerity though I guess. Celerity is a sort of general alien speed boost, which helps with map traversing speed. Skulks though get more freedom to explore a map, going up really high walls or ceilings in crevice and the like, which can help with map mobility to avoid mines or squads of marines, etc... Lerks can fly really fast too, and Fades can get blink. Though those are later game.
Another map mobility thing that benefits aliens more than marines is the vent systems. It gives far more entrances to a room for skulks to use than marines can, as marines usually only have two ways to get into a room (though they can slowly use some vents, especially with jetpack).
I guess when it comes to Carapace + Adrenaline vs. Celerity, you could evolve Carapace/Celerity first, and then as you near the enemy base, swap over Celerity with Adrenaline since it doesn't cost anything. Might get a little tedious, but I guess it gives aliens more customisation on builds because they can sacrifice attack frequency for movement speed when they don't think they'll require it, and just have to avoid too many marines they come across on the way over, as combat nullifies celerity speed bonus (as in actually disables it, as far as I know).
Lerk having to fly back to a hive might be a call for more teamwork I guess. Like having a crags just in the next room for them to regen at, or gorges or something.
If you're able to have two upgrades, that means you have two hives, which should mean you have leap too and leap makes celerity completely useless, so the obvious and most logical choice would be adrenaline.
Like the op said, illusion of choice. UWE has failed with the Alien upgrade system.
Like the op said, illusion of choice. UWE has failed with the Alien upgrade system.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, true that, though only if you're a skulk I guess. I knew I forgot to mention leap as a mobility option, but had forgotten that leap also disables celerity speed bonus. You get more out of leap if you have adrenaline to replenish your energy too...
Blink is better than celerity and requires energy, so also would be good with adrenaline and useless with celerity (at least, after blink is researched, though nobody really Fades until it is anyway).
Lerk now costs minor energy to flap your wings (but not glide), did celerity ever work with lerk flying though? I never really tried it I don't think.
Onos could still use celerity to traverse the map, trying to sync up with alien waves quicker and then swap over to adrenaline for their attack, making them slightly more vulnerable when getting across the map. Though by that stage, often all the marines are turtled up in their base anyway, so chances of coming across enough marines that energy would be a problem before hitting the base is unlikely I suppose.
Gorge could also probably make use of celerity to get to the front lines and heal teammates/prepare to bile-bomb (which really needs adrenaline). I think sliding negates it though, and might even be quicker.
As it stands, you pretty much need carapace as an initial upgrade though yeah... (meaning you've already picked your first hive) Because without it you lack an advantage early game, and you lack viability late game. So by the time celerity is even option you already have leap available to you. I suppose you could set everybody up with celerity first, so they can run around the map quicker, but there's not much call for it and carapace is actually useful in combat.
Would changing celerity so it's just a flat out speed increase break anything? So that leaping doesn't negate it?
It also worked in ns1 to give aliens some ability to respond quickly to a threat the other side of the map, now aliens get to spend 45 seconds running along corridors past 2 other hives only to get to the hive just as the marines kill it (annoying..particuarly when marines last shot before he died killed the hive).
Meanwhile any attempt to attack a PG out post I am lucky to get the PG down to 60% before 2-3 marines phase through.
I concur with a lot of the other gripes, most of all my inability to get silence and camouflage, celerity and adrenalin so many combinations that I previously used to use I no longer can.
I am stuck having to take carapace, adrenaline (allow for more leap and bites...better than clerity) and feign death.
Regen without carapace........ROFL sure if you manage to survive the attack you can heal....but its just as quick to run back to a hive.
I'll just post the bottomlines,
Gorge is overall fine in its current state, hydras are a tad op early game and don't scale towards the endgame.
Skulk, lots of nerfs happened here and people claim this lifeform to be an ambush lifeform. Sadly its also the basic free lifeform, which means that it has to be versatile and seem to fail in this area towards the endgame. You HAVE to attack marines in a direct approach because you DONT have the luxery to ambush in mid to late game. This is the reason why leap and carapace are so popular and turned the alien research path in a no-brainer. Long respawntimes just make this worse. Early game skulks are op with carapace and late game they just blow. There needs to be more scaling.
Lerk is fine, the flapping energy cost might need to be toned down but overally its fine. Time will tell if he needs a buff once fps go up since they can be killed rather fast.
I'm not a fade player so not going to comment.
I concluded in the post that I wrote that for the 75 res you pay to be an onos, you could help your team alot more picking another lifeform that does an alot better job at what you're trying to accomplish. Overally the onos is not worth the res, the gorge does a better job at killing structures being only 10 res using bilebomb, which just happens to be AOE as well. On top of that he can heal his team. The onos is good in keeping corridors and take damage for the team, but thats an overrated ability. I believe fades do a better job at drawing fire and have alot more versatility and finesse in both movement and combat compared to the onos. Chances are that the exo will be an alot better version, using phase gates to overcome slow movement, using ranged combat rather than melee combat, being cheaper than the onos, be medpacked or beaconed, etc. I know aspects of race A can't be directly compared to race B but still. The onos sluggish movement and inability to attack marines effectively makes the onos feel like a bull and a matador in an arena and ultimately makes it a very unfun lifeform to play, at least for me.
As a commander, I tried out the different hive techoptions. The long respawnrate of aliens, the low hp on infant buildings and the slow creation of structures just force marines to be an all out aggressive side, rather than the aliens who have to play defensive now. Big attacks usually result aliens to be in a respawn cycle 50% of the time, just because the basic lifeform (skulk) is not meant to be used in direct eye to eye combat. Carapace fixes this to some extend but since this will get nerfed in the next patch, I hope UWE will be smart enough to make it scalable rather than nerf it down.
This new patch might make the public matches between aliens and marines be ~50% of the time, but its public and the alien strategic depth is getting butchered. It was already questionable to not go crag hive before, I believe this will just get worse. Would it be so bad to introduce scalability to every upgrade/ability on the alien by the number of hives aliens have? Like in either damage or energy cost, or both. I'm twiddling my thumbs as an alien comm, forced to go crag hive every game and just wait until I might get that 2nd hive up. If the marines are aggressive enough, that wont happen and aliens cant get any upgrades, yey we reached ~50% winrate in public, but at what cost. The problem is that aliens dont scale, before they were op early game and underpowered late game compared to the tech options marines have. Fine, lets be aggressive early on and press our advantage. This resulted in marines getting butchered early on because of the early leap and carapce. To fix that, instead of introducing scaling, they just created an inability to get upgrades for aliens until the second hive, aside from carapace/regen. Now you have to pick only 1 of the two so you're left with even less options as an alien.
I'm all for balancing early game so that both sides can be aggressive/defensive, but this should be reflected in both races lategame tech as well then.
These are my thoughts, sadly I had included alot more in the previous post I wrote that went missing due to maintenance.
Bottomline is, make alien abilities/upgrades scalable. You won't be able to balance early/mid/lategame without scalability. Its like giving marines an upgrade that gives level 3 armor and another upgrade that gives level 3 weapons right at the start of the game. Aliens whine that its unfair, and it is. And then the upgrade gets nerfed down, but also kills late game.
Meanwhile any attempt to attack a PG out post I am lucky to get the PG down to 60% before 2-3 marines phase through.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What map takes 45 seconds to get to. Even in docking from cafeteria to generator is less than 30, like 20 seconds maybe. When you chew on a phase gate, and 2-3 chase you away. That is 2-3 marines not on another part of the map pushing your base or harvesters. So you did something good, called a distraction. No matter how many marines they leave behind to guard it from your harassment, those marines are not pushing other parts of the map. It is similar to putting pressure your their main base to get them to fall back from attacking yours.
<!--quoteo(post=1961010:date=Aug 11 2012, 02:28 AM:name=Keldorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keldorn @ Aug 11 2012, 02:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961010"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bottomline is, make alien abilities/upgrades scalable. You won't be able to balance early/mid/lategame without scalability. Its like giving marines an upgrade that gives level 3 armor and another upgrade that gives level 3 weapons right at the start of the game. Aliens whine that its unfair, and it is. And then the upgrade gets nerfed down, but also kills late game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alien is a lot harder and a lot less fun to play now. Especially late game, no matter if your winning or not. It is more balanced now but it seemed to take a lot out of the alien strategy. I can agree with these gripes, even though the game is a lot more balanced.