IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1961171:date=Aug 11 2012, 10:26 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 11 2012, 10:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961171"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The grenade throwing ability of the whips was originally an attempt to balance gameplay when the marine mg had a grenade launcher attachment. Since that was removed, and the grenade launcher made a separate weapon, the justification for that particular feature disappeared.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Where did you?... It was a mod someone made and UWE thought it was cool and added more purpose to the whip?
I have never seen the explanation you provided above given by the devs anywhere? Link plz?
Whips not knocking back grenades to marine's faces anymore was because of the reasons i listed previously in here, not because of the change in GL functionality.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1961807:date=Aug 12 2012, 08:44 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Aug 12 2012, 08:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961807"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Where did you?... It was a mod someone made and UWE thought it was cool and added more purpose to the whip?
I have never seen the explanation you provided above given by the devs anywhere? Link plz?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> From what I can remember, the mod was made during the height of the "grenade launchers are OP!!" phase, from a suggestion in a thread about how to to fix grenade launchers. You do the math.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1961819:date=Aug 12 2012, 09:58 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 12 2012, 09:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961819"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From what I can remember, the mod was made during the height of the "grenade launchers are OP!!" phase, from a suggestion in a thread about how to to fix grenade launchers. You do the math.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Moving back to dedicated GL was not on the table at the time - rather, the problem was that a GL could remove any amount of tres defenses with ease. Giving the aliens some way of protecting 200+ worth of tres investment against anyone with a 30pres weapons seemed - and still seems - like a good idea.
I think Schimmel added the back-at-the-shooter, the original code just whacked it away. Back at the shooter is actually the cheapest way of making sure you don't whack the grenade into a worse place.
I wrote some code that let Whips fire fire bilebombs at jetpackers in a sort-of-flak way, but that got removed. Too bad, it looked pretty cool.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1961842:date=Aug 12 2012, 01:25 PM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Aug 12 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961842"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Giving the aliens some way of protecting 200+ worth of tres investment against anyone with a 30pres weapons seemed - and still seems - like a good idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree!
<!--quoteo(post=1961904:date=Aug 12 2012, 11:45 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Aug 12 2012, 11:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961904"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think making the GL a stand alone weapon changes the justification, really.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ye, this is something that was confusing me as well. I think only one person said it, but I'm not quite sure how the removal of the machine gun from above the launcher of grenades really changed the roll of the whip at all. Grenades still come out one end, and explosions still happen at the location towards which you point. Thus something is still required to be the middle man in that equation.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1961842:date=Aug 12 2012, 09:25 PM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Aug 12 2012, 09:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961842"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Moving back to dedicated GL was not on the table at the time - rather, the problem was that a GL could remove any amount of tres defenses with ease. Giving the aliens some way of protecting 200+ worth of tres investment against anyone with a 30pres weapons seemed - and still seems - like a good idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't agree with your assessment. The problem was that the grenade launcher attachment allowed the players to defend themselves while also lobbing grenades. That meant that it was common for entire marine teams to be kitted out with GLs. The result of that was massive grenade spam, which was all but impossible to defend against for the alien players.
With the GL being a standalone weapon, however, the marine with the GL can no longer defend himself -- that means that you are limited to having only a few GLs in any one squad, and it also means that buying a GL is a very risky investment for the individual player. Being able to counter that simply by dropping a whip seems unreasonable. The task of defending that tres investment should be up to the alien players, not some AI structure that the khamm can spam.
<!--quoteo(post=1961919:date=Aug 12 2012, 06:21 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 12 2012, 06:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961919"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't agree with your assessment. The problem was that the grenade launcher attachment allowed the players to defend themselves while also lobbing grenades. That meant that it was common for entire marine teams to be kitted out with GLs. The result of that was massive grenade spam, which was all but impossible to defend against for the alien players.
With the GL being a standalone weapon, however, the marine with the GL can no longer defend himself -- that means that you are limited to having only a few GLs in any one squad, and it also means that buying a GL is a very risky investment for the individual player. Being able to counter that simply by dropping a whip seems unreasonable. The task of defending that tres investment should be up to the alien players, not some AI structure that the khamm can spam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
perhaps he can't defend himself, but an entire team kitted out with GL's can still do a pretty good job of covering each other.
<!--quoteo(post=1961919:date=Aug 13 2012, 12:21 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 13 2012, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961919"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't agree with your assessment. The problem was that the grenade launcher attachment allowed the players to defend themselves while also lobbing grenades. That meant that it was common for entire marine teams to be kitted out with GLs. The result of that was massive grenade spam, which was all but impossible to defend against for the alien players.
With the GL being a standalone weapon, however, the marine with the GL can no longer defend himself -- that means that you are limited to having only a few GLs in any one squad, and it also means that buying a GL is a very risky investment for the individual player. Being able to counter that simply by dropping a whip seems unreasonable. The task of defending that tres investment should be up to the alien players, not some AI structure that the khamm can spam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is actually true. In NS1, if you sent a team of marines, 50% of whom had grenade launchers, they would be massacred. It doesn't seem to be the same in NS2 though. I think that might have something to do with grenade launchers almost always being accompanied by jetpacks. At the moment there is absolutely no way to reliably bring down a jetpacker. I find that the performance issues even make attacking grounded marines to be an aimless and random cluster ###### to be honest.
<!--quoteo(post=1961165:date=Aug 11 2012, 12:17 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Aug 11 2012, 12:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->important to mention is that only mature whips are able to throw grenades away<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What.
What a waste of 15 res then. Main reason I build whips is to counter grenades. If I have to wait a few minutes for maturity, the hive and whips will be dead by then.
No wonder all those whips weren't working today. 8 whips around my hive and they just watched.
Whips don't seem to be as effective as they where but they arnt pointless. I've had whips bounce back and hit me a lot in this build. Also as aliens and when a granade baring maine come at our hives, whips seem to bounce them away for the most part.
<!--quoteo(post=1961165:date=Aug 11 2012, 10:17 AM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Aug 11 2012, 10:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->important to mention is that only mature whips are able to throw grenades away<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, I didn't know that. I really wish it would say that somewhere on their description/tooltip.
What a waste of 15 res then. Main reason I build whips is to counter grenades. If I have to wait a few minutes for maturity, the hive and whips will be dead by then.
No wonder all those whips weren't working today. 8 whips around my hive and they just watched.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If Whips are in the position that grenade deflection is the only thing that makes them useful then they're having a real serious crisis of identity. That was never even intended to be their designed function in the first place.
<!--quoteo(post=1961984:date=Aug 12 2012, 10:03 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Aug 12 2012, 10:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961984"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If Whips are in the position that grenade deflection is the only thing that makes them useful then they're having a real serious crisis of identity. That was never even intended to be their designed function in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
identity crisis or not they're now a joke without it being a baseline ability. my biggest challenge in blowing up hives is getting the commander to feed me ammo now.
<!--quoteo(post=1961984:date=Aug 13 2012, 04:03 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Aug 13 2012, 04:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1961984"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If Whips are in the position that grenade deflection is the only thing that makes them useful then they're having a real serious crisis of identity. That was never even intended to be their designed function in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't imagine what their intended function was then. Its pretty damn obvious that the strength of the alien life form is speed of movement, and their weakness was their melee range. When you make something melee ranged that... can't move... well yeah, I can't imagine what its intended function was.
What if unrooted whips could still attack, causing a disorientation similar to the LMG butt? The damage of an unrooted whip could be quite heavily reduced, but it would work like an ARC in the way that is meant to be heavily supported by players. Then some compromise could be made with the rooted whips ability to hit grenades back.
Well I dare to say whips can still be used in the early game if set in narrow corridors behind corners/etc. but usually you need to grow 2 at a minimum if you are to kill a marine before he manages to run past them (without any armor upgrades) but it would be far better to set them up where the gorge nest(s) are in case of the marines just rushes past the 'bush of hydras' to kill the gorge and later on in the game when GL's will be about and the whip(s) should (hopefully) be mature and alive.
Other than being a defensive structure you can also use it for offense if you're quick at the keys/don't mind to spend an additional 15 T.res upgrading whips so they can use their bombard ability combined with the shift' echo ability, it's just a shame you rarely see the alien commander do this ever when they do have the T.res for it that is.
However the whips aren't doing much of a good job on throwing 'nades back in the marines' faces this time around, hopefully it'll work a bit more MMMMMMMM flawless in the future.
<!--quoteo(post=1962113:date=Aug 13 2012, 10:22 AM:name=Morshu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Morshu @ Aug 13 2012, 10:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1962113"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well I dare to say whips can still be used in the early game if set in narrow corridors behind corners/etc. but usually you need to grow 2 at a minimum if you are to kill a marine before he manages to run past them (without any armor upgrades) but it would be far better to set them up where the gorge nest(s) are in case of the marines just rushes past the 'bush of hydras' to kill the gorge and later on in the game when GL's will be about and the whip(s) should (hopefully) be mature and alive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
30 res early game on the defence of a single obscure corridor is not an option.
Whips are not a problem since multiple builds. You can shoot directly at them and they don't whack the grenade back. You can shoot on the ground right before them and they don't whack the grenade back. I liked this as a very good counter. Also it created an incentive for the alien com to place the whips strategically. A good placed whip could not hold out forever against a thinking GL-marine. But it was good to slow down the marine advance. So I propose: <ul><li>Let the whip whack the grenade back in the general firing direction, again.</li><li>Make them intentionally not whack grenades that were fired directly onto them or onto their "feets". (Grenades on the ground should not be whack-able.)</li><li>Give them the ability back even when not mature.</li></ul>
There was and is a counter for GL vs Whips. There is no need in further weakening this ability. A GL-marine with a brain can figure out how to counter that whip.
TL;DR: <b>Make the whip grenade whacking effective again but with a specific counter.</b>
Well obviously not right off start but I guess it depends how desparate you are for just some kind of 'defense'.
Played a match where the marines kept killing all the cysts going out of the main hive on Tram where the marines went through north tunnel, couple of whips might've put some kind of 'pressure' on the marines.
On the other hand I guess it didn't help on things with all the experienced players on the marine team while the green players ended up on the alien team but of course that shouldn't be a factor since we all know how nice experienced a la 'pro' players in general are when it comes down to joining 'the losing team'.
i every situation where I came across whips, I could just shoot them with my rifle from -just- behind the corner.
edit: and they won't whip when you're just around the corner
I don't know if that's an exploit or something, but to me, whips are just something that hold me off for a few seconds when i'm emptying some clips in them....?
for 15 res, that's not a good option. however, when all necessary upgrades are researched, it's really the only thing an alien kham can do.
Comments
Where did you?...
It was a mod someone made and UWE thought it was cool and added more purpose to the whip?
I have never seen the explanation you provided above given by the devs anywhere? Link plz?
Whips not knocking back grenades to marine's faces anymore was because of the reasons i listed previously in here, not because of the change in GL functionality.
It was a mod someone made and UWE thought it was cool and added more purpose to the whip?
I have never seen the explanation you provided above given by the devs anywhere? Link plz?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From what I can remember, the mod was made during the height of the "grenade launchers are OP!!" phase, from a suggestion in a thread about how to to fix grenade launchers. You do the math.
Patch# 1420, Whip whacks grenades. Submitted 2011-10-13.
Moving back to dedicated GL was not on the table at the time - rather, the problem was that a GL could remove any amount of tres defenses with ease. Giving the aliens some way of protecting 200+ worth of tres investment against anyone with a 30pres weapons seemed - and still seems - like a good idea.
I think Schimmel added the back-at-the-shooter, the original code just whacked it away. Back at the shooter is actually the cheapest way of making sure you don't whack the grenade into a worse place.
I wrote some code that let Whips fire fire bilebombs at jetpackers in a sort-of-flak way, but that got removed. Too bad, it looked pretty cool.
I agree!
I don't think making the GL a stand alone weapon changes the justification, really.
Lots of info from the devs and playtesters in this thread. Props.
Ye, this is something that was confusing me as well. I think only one person said it, but I'm not quite sure how the removal of the machine gun from above the launcher of grenades really changed the roll of the whip at all. Grenades still come out one end, and explosions still happen at the location towards which you point. Thus something is still required to be the middle man in that equation.
I don't agree with your assessment. The problem was that the grenade launcher attachment allowed the players to defend themselves while also lobbing grenades. That meant that it was common for entire marine teams to be kitted out with GLs. The result of that was massive grenade spam, which was all but impossible to defend against for the alien players.
With the GL being a standalone weapon, however, the marine with the GL can no longer defend himself -- that means that you are limited to having only a few GLs in any one squad, and it also means that buying a GL is a very risky investment for the individual player. Being able to counter that simply by dropping a whip seems unreasonable. The task of defending that tres investment should be up to the alien players, not some AI structure that the khamm can spam.
With the GL being a standalone weapon, however, the marine with the GL can no longer defend himself -- that means that you are limited to having only a few GLs in any one squad, and it also means that buying a GL is a very risky investment for the individual player. Being able to counter that simply by dropping a whip seems unreasonable. The task of defending that tres investment should be up to the alien players, not some AI structure that the khamm can spam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
perhaps he can't defend himself, but an entire team kitted out with GL's can still do a pretty good job of covering each other.
With the GL being a standalone weapon, however, the marine with the GL can no longer defend himself -- that means that you are limited to having only a few GLs in any one squad, and it also means that buying a GL is a very risky investment for the individual player. Being able to counter that simply by dropping a whip seems unreasonable. The task of defending that tres investment should be up to the alien players, not some AI structure that the khamm can spam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is actually true. In NS1, if you sent a team of marines, 50% of whom had grenade launchers, they would be massacred. It doesn't seem to be the same in NS2 though. I think that might have something to do with grenade launchers almost always being accompanied by jetpacks. At the moment there is absolutely no way to reliably bring down a jetpacker. I find that the performance issues even make attacking grounded marines to be an aimless and random cluster ###### to be honest.
What.
What a waste of 15 res then. Main reason I build whips is to counter grenades. If I have to wait a few minutes for maturity, the hive and whips will be dead by then.
No wonder all those whips weren't working today. 8 whips around my hive and they just watched.
Wow, I didn't know that. I really wish it would say that somewhere on their description/tooltip.
What a waste of 15 res then. Main reason I build whips is to counter grenades. If I have to wait a few minutes for maturity, the hive and whips will be dead by then.
No wonder all those whips weren't working today. 8 whips around my hive and they just watched.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If Whips are in the position that grenade deflection is the only thing that makes them useful then they're having a real serious crisis of identity. That was never even intended to be their designed function in the first place.
identity crisis or not they're now a joke without it being a baseline ability. my biggest challenge in blowing up hives is getting the commander to feed me ammo now.
I can't imagine what their intended function was then. Its pretty damn obvious that the strength of the alien life form is speed of movement, and their weakness was their melee range. When you make something melee ranged that... can't move... well yeah, I can't imagine what its intended function was.
What if unrooted whips could still attack, causing a disorientation similar to the LMG butt? The damage of an unrooted whip could be quite heavily reduced, but it would work like an ARC in the way that is meant to be heavily supported by players. Then some compromise could be made with the rooted whips ability to hit grenades back.
Other than being a defensive structure you can also use it for offense if you're quick at the keys/don't mind to spend an additional 15 T.res upgrading whips so they can use their bombard ability combined with the shift' echo ability, it's just a shame you rarely see the alien commander do this ever when they do have the T.res for it that is.
However the whips aren't doing much of a good job on throwing 'nades back in the marines' faces this time around, hopefully it'll work a bit more MMMMMMMM flawless in the future.
Now we don't see that so much anymore.
30 res early game on the defence of a single obscure corridor is not an option.
So I propose:
<ul><li>Let the whip whack the grenade back in the general firing direction, again.</li><li>Make them intentionally not whack grenades that were fired directly onto them or onto their "feets". (Grenades on the ground should not be whack-able.)</li><li>Give them the ability back even when not mature.</li></ul>
There was and is a counter for GL vs Whips. There is no need in further weakening this ability. A GL-marine with a brain can figure out how to counter that whip.
TL;DR:
<b>Make the whip grenade whacking effective again but with a specific counter.</b>
Played a match where the marines kept killing all the cysts going out of the main hive on Tram where the marines went through north tunnel, couple of whips might've put some kind of 'pressure' on the marines.
On the other hand I guess it didn't help on things with all the experienced players on the marine team while the green players ended up on the alien team but of course that shouldn't be a factor since we all know how nice experienced a la 'pro' players in general are when it comes down to joining 'the losing team'.
edit: and they won't whip when you're just around the corner
I don't know if that's an exploit or something, but to me, whips are just something that hold me off for a few seconds when i'm emptying some clips in them....?
for 15 res, that's not a good option. however, when all necessary upgrades are researched, it's really the only thing an alien kham can do.