I also agree that cyst rupture needs some sort of timer or warning for marines in the vicinity but this should not be too avoidable. Possibly something subtle such as the cyst enlarging 2-3x the size of a normal cyst for a second or two before to rupturing. This would give observant marines time to react while not telegraphing that a rupture is coming.
Also I think that shade ink needs to be seriously looked at if its going to stay in the game. Possibly also a more subtle effect versus a giant burst of blinding black on marines' screens as it is now. Its effectiveness against ARCs also needs to be looked at.
The minimap suggestion is spot on. It would not cause "chaos" in pub games. The current minimap is just OP. So many times you see enemies coming up behind you or coming from a certain direction that you should never have known about. It takes away a lot of the game sense and prediction you need in many other fps games. Just showing when a team mate is under attack is enough. The com shouldn't be able to see the enemies either IMO, they should just see when marines or structures are under attack. Enemies should only become visible when scan is used or when they are in range of the obs passive reveal ability.
<!--quoteo(post=1966328:date=Aug 23 2012, 10:52 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Aug 23 2012, 10:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966328"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The minimap suggestion is spot on. It would not cause "chaos" in pub games. The current minimap is just OP. So many times you see enemies coming up behind you or coming from a certain direction that you should never have known about. It takes away a lot of the game sense and prediction you need in many other fps games. Just showing when a team mate is under attack is enough. The com shouldn't be able to see the enemies either IMO, they should just see when marines or structures are under attack. Enemies should only become visible when scan is used or when they are in range of the obs passive reveal ability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Some of the suggestions to the mini-map might be good - like removing the ability to see more than the player is able to see. However, I think this is such a minor issue that it isn't worth adjusting. The other suggestions seem like extreme overkill to me, and Would cause chaos - what little team assistance there is now would be removed (in pub games).
As for the screen visibility, imo some of them could be reduced or made optional. I like the idea of the Cyst Rupture being avoided by looking away, as well as the second of build up so a marine can see it coming. But I think the Gorge Spit, Cyst Rupture, and Rifle Butt should not be optional, as they are game play influencing... annoying as they are, they are a nice change to the standard fighting scenario. i.e. I think they add to the experience, not take away.
There are a couple which I think would be bad as optional (though I wouldn't really care if others want them off) -> taking damage needs some sort of visual identifier, simply because a silenced skulk would bite a marine to death if the marine had no warning. And the second being the low health warning, while not necessary it is nice to have be alerted that you're about to die and need to seek healing/fight more defensively. Without such a warning, it would be fairly easy to run to your death unknowingly.
<!--quoteo(post=1966335:date=Aug 24 2012, 05:13 AM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Aug 24 2012, 05:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966335"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The other suggestions seem like extreme overkill to me, and Would cause chaos - what little team assistance there is now would be removed (in pub games).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How? Please explain. I don't understand how it would cause chaos. Your team mates would still see when you are under attack.
I agree with every word fanatic wrote. Well, the non-gameplay affecting screen effects do not bother me but I don't mind if one could turn them off. Anyway, excuse the caps but I HOPE YOU'RE READING THIS, UWE!
<!--quoteo(post=1966307:date=Aug 24 2012, 03:46 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 24 2012, 03:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966307"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. The screen shakes while shooting (the machine gun). 2. The screen wobbles while sprinting. 3. The crosshair pendulates while sprinting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> These can be toned down or disabled by using <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=120308" target="_blank">this mod</a>.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
I agree with a lot of the points, the visibility blocking issues are frustrating and many of the issues they balance could be done in other ways. Blocking/restricting visibility should be a last resort for balance.
<!--quoteo(post=1966307:date=Aug 23 2012, 06:46 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 23 2012, 06:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966307"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Giving the RTS players direct control over the FPS' players' ability to fight, is bad game design, period.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If this is true, then med/ammopacks should go too, since they also fall into this category. My problem is when you accept med/ammopacks should stay, then its really just an issue of degree on how much influence the RTS player should have on the FPS players.
<!--quoteo(post=1966451:date=Aug 24 2012, 07:17 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Aug 24 2012, 07:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966451"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If this is true, then med/ammopacks should go too, since they also fall into this category. My problem is when you accept med/ammopacks should stay, then its really just an issue of degree on how much influence the RTS player should have on the FPS players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well it depends, there are arguments for making meds heal over time to stop them influencing combat situations as much. Really the problem with the cysts is just that they are unavoidable. It doesn't really matter that the player controlling them is looking from an RTS perspective. When you punish the player for something they couldn't avoid that leads to frustration.
I don't really see how they're unavoidable though. They're clearly visible and marines can easily take them out with their ranged guns. It also works as a detrimental for marines to enter alien infested territory on their own (without being sneaky), which is a good thing.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1966501:date=Aug 24 2012, 02:06 PM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Aug 24 2012, 02:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966501"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't really see how they're unavoidable though. They're clearly visible and marines can easily take them out with their ranged guns. It also works as a detrimental for marines to enter alien infested territory on their own (without being sneaky), which is a good thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This.
If you don't want to get cyst splashed, then shoot it rather than axe/weld it.
<!--quoteo(post=1966337:date=Aug 24 2012, 12:59 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Aug 24 2012, 12:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966337"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How? Please explain. I don't understand how it would cause chaos. Your team mates would still see when you are under attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Let me start by restating that I am only talking about PUB games.
Anyone playing in PUB games should be used to Comms and Khamms without mics, with mics but not talking, or even being completely oblivious to what the team is doing. Essentially these are what Fanatic wants to remove from all FPS players:
c) The position and type of any enemy player and structure within LOS from a friendly player. d) The position and type of any enemy player touching a friendly structure (typically because they are attacking that structure). e) The position and type of any alien player and structure within range of the observatory. <strike>f) The position and type of any alien player and structure under a scan.</strike> (edit - this is wrong)
The problem with this is that in PUB games, the Comm is not always the one giving strategic advice to other players on the team. In fact, I find that the ones with the most time to watch the map are players who are building -> Gorges and Marines building a structure. They are the ones doing nothing but holding a key down and have plenty of time on their hands, the Comm/Khamm players have plenty to do. Regardless of who truly has time, the point is that Every player needs this information - for the simple fact that only some players will use it. Without the above information readily available to all players, it would very likely go unused by the Comm/Khamm in a PUB game. Strategic advice wouldn't be possible from non-rts players, and chaos would ensue. With a bad Comm, no one would know where to go or what to do - and it would kill the game.
There is also the 'common sense' argument of why a scan would only relay information to the Comm when it could easily be displayed to everyone, but that's more of a personal issue of taste.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1966661:date=Aug 25 2012, 02:39 PM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Aug 25 2012, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966661"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Essentially these are what Fanatic wants to remove from all FPS players:
c) The position and type of any enemy player and structure within LOS from a friendly player. d) The position and type of any enemy player touching a friendly structure (typically because they are attacking that structure). e) The position and type of any alien player and structure within range of the observatory. f) The position and type of any alien player and structure under a scan.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You should read my post again, because that is, in fact, not what I said.
If you don't want to get cyst splashed, then shoot it rather than axe/weld it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
exactly, i don't see a reason to change rupture. you can avoid it quite easy, just shoot it and ask the commander for ammo, or if you want to save your ammo work as a squad, cover the blind guy axing the cyst. rupture is the last thing i would want to change.
the marine comm can influence combat with medpack, ammo, nano shield, and the alien commander should have similar strong options to influence the combat. not to forget armory, macs, arcs, scan etc, most of those units have an influence on the game, probably not directly influence combat, but well placed structures will block ways, timed scans defeat ambushes etc. so the real question is, which has already been mentioned before: where is the limit we would have to say comm ability XY has too much influence on combat, and thus destroying the FPS part of the game?
but back to topic, regarding obscuring effects: i personally have the biggest problem with spores. i don't mind so much about occasionally blur effects, spit effects etc. those don't happen that often and you general can avoid them (don't jump as skulk in melee range prevents rifle butt knockback, dodge spit projectile or look away from the gorge, shoot cysts instead of axing them). that's now probably another topic, but i only get frustrated by such negative effects in case i have absolutely no option to avoid them.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1966668:date=Aug 25 2012, 03:23 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Aug 25 2012, 03:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->exactly, i don't see a reason to change rupture. you can avoid it quite easy, just shoot it and ask the commander for ammo, or if you want to save your ammo work as a squad, cover the blind guy axing the cyst. rupture is the last thing i would want to change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Shooting cysts (or axing them for that matter) takes too much time (unless you are lucky enough to be standing in front of it when it is dropped) to be a viable tactic for avoidance. When you want to attack alien harvesters or hives, the only effective way to do so is to run right past the cysts and attack the objective -- all the while being at the mercy of the alien commander's whims.
<!--quoteo(post=1966668:date=Aug 25 2012, 03:23 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Aug 25 2012, 03:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the marine comm can influence combat with medpack, ammo, nano shield, and the alien commander should have similar strong options to influence the combat. not to forget armory, macs, arcs, scan etc, most of those units have an influence on the game, probably not directly influence combat, but well placed structures will block ways, timed scans defeat ambushes etc. so the real question is, which has already been mentioned before: where is the limit we would have to say comm ability XY has too much influence on combat, and thus destroying the FPS part of the game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is a significant difference between abilities that help your opponent and abilities that limit your own ability to fight. There is also a significant difference between the power of ability x and ability y. Somewhat powerful ability x is potentially tolerable, but very powerful ability y is not.
The current erupt cyst is an example of an entirely intolerable commander ability that directly interferes with FPS player enjoyment. In previous threads discussing nano shield, I have expressed similar sentiments regarding that particular ability.
Part of the reason why I have been negative to adding the alien commander from the beginning, was that I was afraid you were going to give him such abilities at some point. For a while I was pleasantly surprised that you had at least avoided that pitfall, but now it is starting to look like my initial assumption was correct.
The reason why the RTS/FPS mix of NS worked so well, was because the RTS player's direct interference with the FPS players' gameplay was extremely limited. Any deviation from that particular formula is highly problematic.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
it's very difficult to judge for me how much of a problem rupture is. i never encountered an alien commander who effectively used this ability, one of the reasons is probably breaking the cyst chain (and even spending resources for that) is nothing you really want to do, and there is chance that the rupture effect is over before any field player could take advantage of it.
all i can do here is keep an eye on that ability, and if it turns out to be too annoying / effective we already have a solution to test (look away from cyst to prevent the screen effect). charlie wrote in his high level design doc he released a while ago, that the FPS part of the game should never suffer from the RTS, which should be answer enough regarding the cyst rupture problem.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1966672:date=Aug 25 2012, 07:41 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 25 2012, 07:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shooting cysts (or axing them for that matter) takes too much time (unless you are lucky enough to be standing in front of it when it is dropped) to be a viable tactic for avoidance. When you want to attack alien harvesters or hives, the only effective way to do so is to run right past the cysts and attack the objective -- all the while being at the mercy of the alien commander's whims.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In practice, I never see comms use rupture, mostly because - Destroying your infestation cyst chain is usually a terrible idea - Comm LOS on marines is so limited that you frequently don't even see the marine even when their killing your cysts
Personally, I'd rather see rupture be turned into a general 'alien recycle' ability, rather than its current mostly useless cyst ability.
well i generaly have no problem that my vision gets obscured or i get smashed to the floor by an onos. but as it seems many people do, so here are my 2cents for rupture.
1st problem: a commander breaking his own cyst chain? terrible idea! if the cyst bursts and a "newborn" cyst appears its ok. the matured cyst sacrefices most of its hp but doesnt kill itself. it only ruptures and doesnt selfdestruct. the "new" cyst can be killed by only a couple of bullets but as rupture is intended as combat assistance there is a chance the combat is won and the new cyst lives to mature again.
2nd problem: screen gets obscured. simple solution, make it a cloud(think ink), dont like your vision obscured? take 2 steps back. it doesnt have to block vision at all, can be a sporecloud, umbra-like, halocination-like, or even encyme-cloud. when i think about it i would like the encyme-cloud, because it makes sense to me, that csysts of such a big alien "organism" is filled with encymes to spread the infestation. only matured csysts can use that ability.
btw: i find it odd that the alien commander is so limited in combat assistance. as i think about it, i would also like the mencioned encyme-rupture to not only boost energy regeneration, but also trigger a carpace like armor buff. because it can only be used if you are in the defence(martured cyst required) and even with carpacebuff compared to the marinecommander abilitys its still moderate at best.
i just realiced that there is much more to discuss:
about the minimap changes: im with fana on this one 100%. (where are my friends and structures and are they under attack? are the only things i need to know)
the alien upgrades: i like limiting the player to only one upgrade per "path", what i dont like, nor understand is the limitation of 1 path per hive. the players are still limited with the numerofhives=numerofupgrades, there is no reason to bind a hive to a path, these are compleatly different shoes, you are binding a housesliper to a military boot, that looks just awkward. the strongsuit of alienplay should be deversity. i see why swapping the model of support and upgradestructures might be a problem designwise, but swapping the sizes should be no problem making one smaller and the other bigger sounds easy enough.(maybe a little hp-increas for the upgradestructure in the process) how upgrades are researched is fine with me, one way or the other, but i like your idea for regeneration, thought it should be this way all the time. and yes gorges should be able to build structures with pres, ether without infestation or with minicysts.(minicysts that dont need a connection to a hive would be nice, with the mechanic that structures take damage when not on infestation this creates a needed weakpoint in fullblown offensive gorge fortresses.)
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
I don't buy the argument regarding its efficacy. If rupture cyst isn't worth using, then why is it even available for use? One has to assume that since it is in the game, the devs want it to be used, and therefore will give it a buff if/when they discover that it isn't being used.
I won't deny that it is currently rarely used, but I've seen it and it has been a singularly frustrating experience every time.
<!--quoteo(post=1966661:date=Aug 25 2012, 02:39 PM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Aug 25 2012, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966661"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...the point is that Every player needs this information - for the simple fact that only some players will use it. Without the above information readily available to all players, it would very likely go unused by the Comm/Khamm in a PUB game. Strategic advice wouldn't be possible from non-rts players, and chaos would ensue. With a bad Comm, no one would know where to go or what to do - and it would kill the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where is the evidence that it "would kill the game"? If you don't know where the enemy is it would kill the game? None of that information is available in most fps games. NS2 gives you too much information imo. Scans would still show players and structures to everyone of course... You would know where to go, you would still see when buildings and team mates are under attack, it just wouldn't tell you the exact location of enemies.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1966720:date=Aug 25 2012, 02:18 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 25 2012, 02:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966720"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't buy the argument regarding its efficacy. If rupture cyst isn't worth using, then why is it even available for use? One has to assume that since it is in the game, the devs want it to be used, and therefore will give it a buff if/when they discover that it isn't being used.
I won't deny that it is currently rarely used, but I've seen it and it has been a singularly frustrating experience every time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Possibly. NS2 has quite a few rarely or unused things (hypermutation, camo, xenocide, rupture, MAC emp, drifter enzyme, infestation spikes, shift egg hatch and chamber move, whip bilebomb, shade hallucination), that the uselessness of something can persist for many builds (i.e. rupture was put in in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Build_205" target="_blank">B205</a> back in April). They may buff it, but I think equally as likely that they just may eventually remove it (like nanoconstruct, sentry ammo, crag umbra, AOE myst, etc).
The only reason i don't see cyst rupture being used alot is that the circumstances in which its useful to do so rarely occur (marines pushing on non-hive infestation with aliens around at just the right timing). Because the conditions necessary for its effective use are relatively rare, and rely heavily on teamwork you will hardly ever see its use in public games. The effort and apm to scan the map is just too much for the majority of people who go into alien comm with that relaxed mindset to begin with. I honestly doubt many players even realise they can rupture.
Just like any other game beta, alot of the small things are never really taken up until their made popular by competitive clans and players. Take the lerk rush as a good example.
About the cyst rupture, the only potential issue i can see with the effect is that it slows game flow down, provides that buffer time for alien response - whether because you need to shoot the cysts or because you need to wait for the effect to wear off. Basically it reduces movement and positional options just by threat which i'm not sure yet is a good thing.
<!--quoteo(post=1966667:date=Aug 25 2012, 10:22 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 25 2012, 10:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966667"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You should read my post again, because that is, in fact, not what I said.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So, I reread your post, I still think that's what you were saying. Want to point out what I got wrong?
<!--quoteo(post=1966696:date=Aug 25 2012, 01:36 PM:name=Venatos)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Venatos @ Aug 25 2012, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966696"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1st problem: a commander breaking his own cyst chain? terrible idea! if the cyst bursts and a "newborn" cyst appears its ok. the matured cyst sacrefices most of its hp but doesnt kill itself. it only ruptures and doesnt selfdestruct.
2nd problem: screen gets obscured. simple solution, make it a cloud(think ink), dont like your vision obscured? take 2 steps back.
btw: i find it odd that the alien commander is so limited in combat assistance. as i think about it, i would also like the mencioned encyme-rupture to not only boost energy regeneration, but also trigger a carpace like armor buff. because it can only be used if you are in the defence(martured cyst required) and even with carpacebuff compared to the marinecommander abilitys its still moderate at best.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed, Agreed, and Agreed - though I think the last bit might be OP, I'd have to see it worked out.
<!--quoteo(post=1966735:date=Aug 25 2012, 06:33 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Aug 25 2012, 06:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Where is the evidence that it "would kill the game"? If you don't know where the enemy is it would kill the game? None of that information is available in most fps games. NS2 gives you too much information imo. Scans would still show players and structures to everyone of course... You would know where to go, you would still see when buildings and team mates are under attack, it just wouldn't tell you the exact location of enemies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have no "evidence", I was merely stating my opinion - this isn't a trial, its a discussion. Scans wouldn't show players or structures to everyone according to Fanatic's post, only to the Comm. The difference between NS2 and other FPS games is that the maps are relatively large and there are lots of different points of importance in the various Res Nodes and Tech Nodes. Without enough information, a team wont be able to properly plan their attack or defense. I don't think anyone is really disputing that, Fanatic just seems to be saying that only the Comm should have such an "excess" of information - I disagree. I do think some of Fanatics points make sense, like seeing more on the mini-map then the player is actually able to see is bad, or that the efforts to make the map "cumbersome" just come across as pointlessly annoying.
<!--quoteo(post=1963025:date=Aug 15 2012, 12:16 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 15 2012, 12:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963025"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The minimap should only give the field players access to the the following information: a) The layout of the map. b) The position and type of all friendly players and structures. c) The position and type of any alien player and structure under a scan. d) An indicator showing you which friendly structures are under attack (with a more clear indication that the structure is under attack than the current blinking icon) (for clarity; it should not show what is attacking the structure, just that the structure is under attack). e) The position of any parasited marine. f) The position of any waypoint (thanks Heroman117).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1966661:date=Aug 25 2012, 03:39 PM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Aug 25 2012, 03:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966661"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->c) The position and type of any enemy player and structure within LOS from a friendly player. d) The position and type of any enemy player touching a friendly structure (typically because they are attacking that structure). e) The position and type of any alien player and structure within range of the observatory. f) The position and type of any alien player and structure under a scan.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> e) and f) dont match botchiball, c) and d) do. i like the idea, it gives some tension/thrill back to the game. tbh i dont want to know what kind of or how many aliens my marine-buddy is fighting when i storm in there to support him. it actually bugs me, that i can shoot at the alien the second i come around the corner with the current minimap i know exactly where he is. more than once did i kill a skulk before i realy saw it, i mean consciously, i just fired at the position the minimap told me.
Shooting cysts doesn't take much time especially with how low hp they have now it just feels unintuitive especially if you have to call for ammo afterwards and use team res. At the same time though it feels that marines seem to always have the early res advantage and you would think 1 tres for ammo equals 1 tres to place a cyst but that just never feels right so I end up knifing them. My opinion is that rupture is too annoying to be instantaneous especially when it can be stacked with multiple cysts in the same aoe it pretty much guarantees the alien wins unless the marine comm intervenes.
I agree with all of what Fana's said but I would add further things to consider; spore, jetpack cloud, nano-pulse, the general level of darkness and the alien colour scheme.
<!--quoteo(post=1966885:date=Aug 26 2012, 06:47 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Aug 26 2012, 06:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966885"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with all of what Fana's said but I would add further things to consider; spore, jetpack cloud, nano-pulse, the general level of darkness and the alien colour scheme.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> hard to resist a reaction to that... just please open another thread for these.... further things... this thread has made it to 3 pages without extremes in either direction, please keep it that way.
Then I won't react either. I just think there are a few sacred areas that could illicit some pretty serious visibility gains which I think is desirable. Call me a visibility junkie - i'm just addicted to being able to see things!
<!--quoteo(post=1966798:date=Aug 26 2012, 12:43 AM:name=Venatos)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Venatos @ Aug 26 2012, 12:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966798"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->e) and f) dont match botchiball, c) and d) do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was quoting the set of letters from above the list you posted, saying that they were the ones removed and I think are important to remain. Re-read the Cs and Ds again, they're saying quite different things as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1967161:date=Aug 27 2012, 04:52 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 27 2012, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967161"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can anybody help me out here? I'm lost for words.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> botchiball tried to take your list of things currently displayed by the minimap,
<!--quoteo(post=1963025:date=Aug 14 2012, 05:16 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 14 2012, 05:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963025"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Currently, the minimap gives you acces to the following information (rough list, not exhaustive): a) The layout of the map. b) The position and type of all friendly players and structures. c) The position and type of any enemy player and structure within LOS from a friendly player. d) The position and type of any enemy player touching a friendly structure (typically because they are attacking that structure). e) The position and type of any alien player and structure within range of the observatory. f) The position and type of any alien player and structure under a scan. g) An indicator showing you which friendly structures are under attack (currently the icon blinks). h) The position of any parasited marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> and modify that list to display what he thinks you want to <b>REMOVE</b>. <!--quoteo(post=1966661:date=Aug 25 2012, 08:39 AM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Aug 25 2012, 08:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966661"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Essentially these are what Fanatic wants to remove from all FPS players:
c) The position and type of any enemy player and structure within LOS from a friendly player. d) The position and type of any enemy player touching a friendly structure (typically because they are attacking that structure). e) The position and type of any alien player and structure within range of the observatory. f) The position and type of any alien player and structure under a scan.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But he mistakenly thinks that you want to remove f).
Comments
Also I think that shade ink needs to be seriously looked at if its going to stay in the game. Possibly also a more subtle effect versus a giant burst of blinding black on marines' screens as it is now. Its effectiveness against ARCs also needs to be looked at.
Some of the suggestions to the mini-map might be good - like removing the ability to see more than the player is able to see. However, I think this is such a minor issue that it isn't worth adjusting. The other suggestions seem like extreme overkill to me, and Would cause chaos - what little team assistance there is now would be removed (in pub games).
As for the screen visibility, imo some of them could be reduced or made optional. I like the idea of the Cyst Rupture being avoided by looking away, as well as the second of build up so a marine can see it coming. But I think the Gorge Spit, Cyst Rupture, and Rifle Butt should not be optional, as they are game play influencing... annoying as they are, they are a nice change to the standard fighting scenario. i.e. I think they add to the experience, not take away.
There are a couple which I think would be bad as optional (though I wouldn't really care if others want them off) -> taking damage needs some sort of visual identifier, simply because a silenced skulk would bite a marine to death if the marine had no warning. And the second being the low health warning, while not necessary it is nice to have be alerted that you're about to die and need to seek healing/fight more defensively. Without such a warning, it would be fairly easy to run to your death unknowingly.
How? Please explain. I don't understand how it would cause chaos. Your team mates would still see when you are under attack.
2. The screen wobbles while sprinting.
3. The crosshair pendulates while sprinting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These can be toned down or disabled by using <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=120308" target="_blank">this mod</a>.
<!--quoteo(post=1966307:date=Aug 23 2012, 06:46 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 23 2012, 06:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966307"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Giving the RTS players direct control over the FPS' players' ability to fight, is bad game design, period.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If this is true, then med/ammopacks should go too, since they also fall into this category. My problem is when you accept med/ammopacks should stay, then its really just an issue of degree on how much influence the RTS player should have on the FPS players.
Well it depends, there are arguments for making meds heal over time to stop them influencing combat situations as much. Really the problem with the cysts is just that they are unavoidable. It doesn't really matter that the player controlling them is looking from an RTS perspective. When you punish the player for something they couldn't avoid that leads to frustration.
This.
If you don't want to get cyst splashed, then shoot it rather than axe/weld it.
Let me start by restating that I am only talking about PUB games.
Anyone playing in PUB games should be used to Comms and Khamms without mics, with mics but not talking, or even being completely oblivious to what the team is doing. Essentially these are what Fanatic wants to remove from all FPS players:
c) The position and type of any enemy player and structure within LOS from a friendly player.
d) The position and type of any enemy player touching a friendly structure (typically because they are attacking that structure).
e) The position and type of any alien player and structure within range of the observatory.
<strike>f) The position and type of any alien player and structure under a scan.</strike> (edit - this is wrong)
The problem with this is that in PUB games, the Comm is not always the one giving strategic advice to other players on the team. In fact, I find that the ones with the most time to watch the map are players who are building -> Gorges and Marines building a structure. They are the ones doing nothing but holding a key down and have plenty of time on their hands, the Comm/Khamm players have plenty to do. Regardless of who truly has time, the point is that Every player needs this information - for the simple fact that only some players will use it. Without the above information readily available to all players, it would very likely go unused by the Comm/Khamm in a PUB game. Strategic advice wouldn't be possible from non-rts players, and chaos would ensue. With a bad Comm, no one would know where to go or what to do - and it would kill the game.
There is also the 'common sense' argument of why a scan would only relay information to the Comm when it could easily be displayed to everyone, but that's more of a personal issue of taste.
c) The position and type of any enemy player and structure within LOS from a friendly player.
d) The position and type of any enemy player touching a friendly structure (typically because they are attacking that structure).
e) The position and type of any alien player and structure within range of the observatory.
f) The position and type of any alien player and structure under a scan.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You should read my post again, because that is, in fact, not what I said.
If you don't want to get cyst splashed, then shoot it rather than axe/weld it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
exactly, i don't see a reason to change rupture. you can avoid it quite easy, just shoot it and ask the commander for ammo, or if you want to save your ammo work as a squad, cover the blind guy axing the cyst. rupture is the last thing i would want to change.
the marine comm can influence combat with medpack, ammo, nano shield, and the alien commander should have similar strong options to influence the combat. not to forget armory, macs, arcs, scan etc, most of those units have an influence on the game, probably not directly influence combat, but well placed structures will block ways, timed scans defeat ambushes etc. so the real question is, which has already been mentioned before: where is the limit we would have to say comm ability XY has too much influence on combat, and thus destroying the FPS part of the game?
but back to topic, regarding obscuring effects: i personally have the biggest problem with spores. i don't mind so much about occasionally blur effects, spit effects etc. those don't happen that often and you general can avoid them (don't jump as skulk in melee range prevents rifle butt knockback, dodge spit projectile or look away from the gorge, shoot cysts instead of axing them). that's now probably another topic, but i only get frustrated by such negative effects in case i have absolutely no option to avoid them.
Shooting cysts (or axing them for that matter) takes too much time (unless you are lucky enough to be standing in front of it when it is dropped) to be a viable tactic for avoidance. When you want to attack alien harvesters or hives, the only effective way to do so is to run right past the cysts and attack the objective -- all the while being at the mercy of the alien commander's whims.
<!--quoteo(post=1966668:date=Aug 25 2012, 03:23 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Aug 25 2012, 03:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the marine comm can influence combat with medpack, ammo, nano shield, and the alien commander should have similar strong options to influence the combat. not to forget armory, macs, arcs, scan etc, most of those units have an influence on the game, probably not directly influence combat, but well placed structures will block ways, timed scans defeat ambushes etc. so the real question is, which has already been mentioned before: where is the limit we would have to say comm ability XY has too much influence on combat, and thus destroying the FPS part of the game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a significant difference between abilities that help your opponent and abilities that limit your own ability to fight. There is also a significant difference between the power of ability x and ability y. Somewhat powerful ability x is potentially tolerable, but very powerful ability y is not.
The current erupt cyst is an example of an entirely intolerable commander ability that directly interferes with FPS player enjoyment. In previous threads discussing nano shield, I have expressed similar sentiments regarding that particular ability.
Part of the reason why I have been negative to adding the alien commander from the beginning, was that I was afraid you were going to give him such abilities at some point. For a while I was pleasantly surprised that you had at least avoided that pitfall, but now it is starting to look like my initial assumption was correct.
The reason why the RTS/FPS mix of NS worked so well, was because the RTS player's direct interference with the FPS players' gameplay was extremely limited. Any deviation from that particular formula is highly problematic.
all i can do here is keep an eye on that ability, and if it turns out to be too annoying / effective we already have a solution to test (look away from cyst to prevent the screen effect). charlie wrote in his high level design doc he released a while ago, that the FPS part of the game should never suffer from the RTS, which should be answer enough regarding the cyst rupture problem.
In practice, I never see comms use rupture, mostly because
- Destroying your infestation cyst chain is usually a terrible idea
- Comm LOS on marines is so limited that you frequently don't even see the marine even when their killing your cysts
Personally, I'd rather see rupture be turned into a general 'alien recycle' ability, rather than its current mostly useless cyst ability.
but as it seems many people do, so here are my 2cents for rupture.
1st problem: a commander breaking his own cyst chain? terrible idea! if the cyst bursts and a "newborn" cyst appears its ok. the matured cyst sacrefices most of its hp but doesnt kill itself. it only ruptures and doesnt selfdestruct. the "new" cyst can be killed by only a couple of bullets but as rupture is intended as combat assistance there is a chance the combat is won and the new cyst lives to mature again.
2nd problem: screen gets obscured. simple solution, make it a cloud(think ink), dont like your vision obscured? take 2 steps back. it doesnt have to block vision at all, can be a sporecloud, umbra-like, halocination-like, or even encyme-cloud. when i think about it i would like the encyme-cloud, because it makes sense to me, that csysts of such a big alien "organism" is filled with encymes to spread the infestation. only matured csysts can use that ability.
btw: i find it odd that the alien commander is so limited in combat assistance. as i think about it, i would also like the mencioned encyme-rupture to not only boost energy regeneration, but also trigger a carpace like armor buff. because it can only be used if you are in the defence(martured cyst required) and even with carpacebuff compared to the marinecommander abilitys its still moderate at best.
i just realiced that there is much more to discuss:
about the minimap changes: im with fana on this one 100%. (where are my friends and structures and are they under attack? are the only things i need to know)
the alien upgrades: i like limiting the player to only one upgrade per "path", what i dont like, nor understand is the limitation of 1 path per hive. the players are still limited with the numerofhives=numerofupgrades, there is no reason to bind a hive to a path, these are compleatly different shoes, you are binding a housesliper to a military boot, that looks just awkward. the strongsuit of alienplay should be deversity.
i see why swapping the model of support and upgradestructures might be a problem designwise, but swapping the sizes should be no problem making one smaller and the other bigger sounds easy enough.(maybe a little hp-increas for the upgradestructure in the process)
how upgrades are researched is fine with me, one way or the other, but i like your idea for regeneration, thought it should be this way all the time.
and yes gorges should be able to build structures with pres, ether without infestation or with minicysts.(minicysts that dont need a connection to a hive would be nice, with the mechanic that structures take damage when not on infestation this creates a needed weakpoint in fullblown offensive gorge fortresses.)
I won't deny that it is currently rarely used, but I've seen it and it has been a singularly frustrating experience every time.
Where is the evidence that it "would kill the game"? If you don't know where the enemy is it would kill the game? None of that information is available in most fps games. NS2 gives you too much information imo. Scans would still show players and structures to everyone of course... You would know where to go, you would still see when buildings and team mates are under attack, it just wouldn't tell you the exact location of enemies.
I won't deny that it is currently rarely used, but I've seen it and it has been a singularly frustrating experience every time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Possibly. NS2 has quite a few rarely or unused things (hypermutation, camo, xenocide, rupture, MAC emp, drifter enzyme, infestation spikes, shift egg hatch and chamber move, whip bilebomb, shade hallucination), that the uselessness of something can persist for many builds (i.e. rupture was put in in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Build_205" target="_blank">B205</a> back in April). They may buff it, but I think equally as likely that they just may eventually remove it (like nanoconstruct, sentry ammo, crag umbra, AOE myst, etc).
Just like any other game beta, alot of the small things are never really taken up until their made popular by competitive clans and players. Take the lerk rush as a good example.
About the cyst rupture, the only potential issue i can see with the effect is that it slows game flow down, provides that buffer time for alien response - whether because you need to shoot the cysts or because you need to wait for the effect to wear off. Basically it reduces movement and positional options just by threat which i'm not sure yet is a good thing.
So, I reread your post, I still think that's what you were saying. Want to point out what I got wrong?
<!--quoteo(post=1966696:date=Aug 25 2012, 01:36 PM:name=Venatos)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Venatos @ Aug 25 2012, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966696"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1st problem: a commander breaking his own cyst chain? terrible idea! if the cyst bursts and a "newborn" cyst appears its ok. the matured cyst sacrefices most of its hp but doesnt kill itself. it only ruptures and doesnt selfdestruct.
2nd problem: screen gets obscured. simple solution, make it a cloud(think ink), dont like your vision obscured? take 2 steps back.
btw: i find it odd that the alien commander is so limited in combat assistance. as i think about it, i would also like the mencioned encyme-rupture to not only boost energy regeneration, but also trigger a carpace like armor buff. because it can only be used if you are in the defence(martured cyst required) and even with carpacebuff compared to the marinecommander abilitys its still moderate at best.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, Agreed, and Agreed - though I think the last bit might be OP, I'd have to see it worked out.
<!--quoteo(post=1966735:date=Aug 25 2012, 06:33 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Aug 25 2012, 06:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Where is the evidence that it "would kill the game"? If you don't know where the enemy is it would kill the game? None of that information is available in most fps games. NS2 gives you too much information imo. Scans would still show players and structures to everyone of course... You would know where to go, you would still see when buildings and team mates are under attack, it just wouldn't tell you the exact location of enemies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have no "evidence", I was merely stating my opinion - this isn't a trial, its a discussion. Scans wouldn't show players or structures to everyone according to Fanatic's post, only to the Comm. The difference between NS2 and other FPS games is that the maps are relatively large and there are lots of different points of importance in the various Res Nodes and Tech Nodes. Without enough information, a team wont be able to properly plan their attack or defense. I don't think anyone is really disputing that, Fanatic just seems to be saying that only the Comm should have such an "excess" of information - I disagree. I do think some of Fanatics points make sense, like seeing more on the mini-map then the player is actually able to see is bad, or that the efforts to make the map "cumbersome" just come across as pointlessly annoying.
a) The layout of the map.
b) The position and type of all friendly players and structures.
c) The position and type of any alien player and structure under a scan.
d) An indicator showing you which friendly structures are under attack (with a more clear indication that the structure is under attack than the current blinking icon) (for clarity; it should not show what is attacking the structure, just that the structure is under attack).
e) The position of any parasited marine.
f) The position of any waypoint (thanks Heroman117).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1966661:date=Aug 25 2012, 03:39 PM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Aug 25 2012, 03:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966661"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->c) The position and type of any enemy player and structure within LOS from a friendly player.
d) The position and type of any enemy player touching a friendly structure (typically because they are attacking that structure).
e) The position and type of any alien player and structure within range of the observatory.
f) The position and type of any alien player and structure under a scan.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
e) and f) dont match botchiball, c) and d) do.
i like the idea, it gives some tension/thrill back to the game. tbh i dont want to know what kind of or how many aliens my marine-buddy is fighting when i storm in there to support him. it actually bugs me, that i can shoot at the alien the second i come around the corner with the current minimap i know exactly where he is. more than once did i kill a skulk before i realy saw it, i mean consciously, i just fired at the position the minimap told me.
hard to resist a reaction to that...
just please open another thread for these.... further things...
this thread has made it to 3 pages without extremes in either direction, please keep it that way.
I was quoting the set of letters from above the list you posted, saying that they were the ones removed and I think are important to remain. Re-read the Cs and Ds again, they're saying quite different things as well.
botchiball tried to take your list of things currently displayed by the minimap,
<!--quoteo(post=1963025:date=Aug 14 2012, 05:16 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 14 2012, 05:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1963025"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Currently, the minimap gives you acces to the following information (rough list, not exhaustive):
a) The layout of the map.
b) The position and type of all friendly players and structures.
c) The position and type of any enemy player and structure within LOS from a friendly player.
d) The position and type of any enemy player touching a friendly structure (typically because they are attacking that structure).
e) The position and type of any alien player and structure within range of the observatory.
f) The position and type of any alien player and structure under a scan.
g) An indicator showing you which friendly structures are under attack (currently the icon blinks).
h) The position of any parasited marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and modify that list to display what he thinks you want to <b>REMOVE</b>.
<!--quoteo(post=1966661:date=Aug 25 2012, 08:39 AM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Aug 25 2012, 08:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966661"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Essentially these are what Fanatic wants to remove from all FPS players:
c) The position and type of any enemy player and structure within LOS from a friendly player.
d) The position and type of any enemy player touching a friendly structure (typically because they are attacking that structure).
e) The position and type of any alien player and structure within range of the observatory.
f) The position and type of any alien player and structure under a scan.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But he mistakenly thinks that you want to remove f).