Marine speed
Nordic
Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
Comments
I don't think it needs to be removed but nerfed somewhat.
I don't think it needs to be removed but nerfed somewhat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have very rarely been able to take a harvester without aliens at least trying to stop me with in about 10 seconds. You mention weak until fully built though, meaning most likely early game. I usually don't, and have not seen marines attempt to kill my harvesters at the other end of the map.
Bigger maps would be cool but is not a solution in and of itself. The current res model would have to change also.
Also, if a marine is running away from a skulk with his axe, he is probably about dead anyway. Easy kill. I haven't had a problem with people running from me though, unless I am a fade or early onos.
I see it all the time and you said it yourself; "I have read several times lately that marines are just too fast." So it's not just me that thinks this.
I have to agree with you, CobraCommander..
I'm all for more engagements, but UWE could stand to stretch a few halls or lengthen a few rooms.
What does this allow? This allows earlier constant pressure from the marine team. They can quickly get the alien harvesters and to the cyst chain and cut them down. The thing to note here, is this isn't a squad or even the whole team. This is one marine, a marine who plays on the team that should be sticking together. I see it time and time again in pub matches. One marine sprints into alien territory and cuts down cysts then gets cleaned up by skulks. 25 seconds later he is back doing the same thing. Hell, I'd even go so far as to attribute the alien upgrade sniping to sprint. I really don't think it would be near as prevalent if marines were slower (i.e. sans sprint) and each suicide dive was a REAL time commitment.
Let's look at some numbers:
On a rough time I was able to walk from Data Core to Flight Control in ~30 seconds (going through glass hallway > Crossroads > Summit Reception). Sprinting the same distance (stopping to catch my breath once) I could traverse that in ~22 seconds. That's around 36% faster. Let's say an average respawn time for a marine of 7 seconds (which I think is generous). A marine dies in Flight Control, respawns after 7 seconds and sprints from Data Core back to the Hive in Flight in the aforementioned 22 seconds. That's faster than if the marine walked it. The marine can DIE, and SPRINT back to where they were in the same or LESS amount of time that it would take them to walk that same distance. This lessens the positional punishment for dying as they can get right back there quickly and really detracts from the victory of the aliens killing that marine. That marine you just killed trying to snipe your upgrades? Better stick around because he will be sprinting back soon enough. I shouldn't even have to mention that the alien spawn time can often times be up to 30 seconds in the worst case scenario, add that to the equation and marine sprint looks even more ridiculous. He can kill you, die and have the potential to make it back to the hive at around the same time you are spawning. I also did a quick time of a skulk running the same distance and it was about ~19 seconds. No wall jumping, just the same route on the ground the marine would have to run.
On one hand sprint does what it sets out to do. It allows a marine who has died to catch back up to his squad but you have to keep in mind allowing that makes it easier for marines to put on early AND constant pressure. I'd also venture to say sprint also promotes ramboing rather than squading up, but that is just anecdotal. But we have to ask are the benefits of having sprint outweighing their gameplay consequences?
I understand what you are saying about sprint, but one just has to look to the past for some possible answers. In NS1, you had wiggle walk, wall strafe, and bunny hopping and despite those various modes of travel, you still had strategic distances to deal with that balanced things out.
Now, here with NS2, some elements of NS1 are starting to show; being that for aliens you have/had wall jumping and instead of wiggle walk/strafe marines have sprint. The problem, I believe, lies with the more compact maps and emphasis on more frequent encounters. We have almost the same type of rhythm as high level competitive NS1 gameplay, but only happening faster and more frequently.
They're saying nerf to nerf sprint. You don't actually sprint in combat so this really does nothing for marines against fades or onos. You can't shoot while sprinting and for a short time after sprinting.
I agree with the above posts that make arguments for removing sprint. I think it gives marines too much map control in the early game. Mid to late game when marines start needing map control to hold multiple areas are when phase gates and jetpacks come into play.
Marine respawn is ~10s with an available IP from death to spawn. Alien spawn, if you are the only one dead to start a wave spawn, is ~15s. It goes up and up when more people are dead, though. Eggs are never a problem unless your team is being camped, it is always the wave spawn and the 3-player-per-wave cap that is killing alien spawn times. You will frequently wait 20-30 seconds to respawn as an alien.
Now, here with NS2, some elements of NS1 are starting to show; being that for aliens you have/had wall jumping and instead of wiggle walk/strafe marines have sprint. The problem, I believe, lies with the more compact maps and emphasis on more frequent encounters. We have almost the same type of rhythm as high level competitive NS1 gameplay, but only happening faster and more frequently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, sprint in it's current state just feels really over the top however. I'm not saying it has to just be outright removed even just decreased duration and increased cooldown would be fine with me. More strategic use of it rather than OH I SHOULD MASH SPRINT.
Also, when first loaded up Remedy's ns2_eclipse and FMPOne's ns2_veil (before that one went all hush hush) even those felt smaller than they did in NS1 despite being pretty damn faithful remakes and I feel it was mostly just due to the speed that you can move around maps now. Could just be me though.
I would disagree with this statement, marine expansion can be extremely quick.
Marine default speed: 5
Marine sprint speed: 6 (6.3 w/ axe out)
Marines run slower with heavier weapons, but sprint is mostly a problem because as mentioned above is that they can sprint through the map to snipe RTs early, and another trend I see in gathers/comp games is that you see them deny second hive expos with ease as well because of the mobility, aliens must race them to defend a position instead of relying on the sound tactics of ambushing/setting up beforehand NS1 style.
You can get usually 2/3rds across the map on one sprint as a marine, prolly half way on the bigger maps. I agree with Industry that it makes the maps just feel smaller, too.
I'm all for more engagements, but UWE could stand to stretch a few halls or lengthen a few rooms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reminds me of a match yesterday on Triad, where the alien comm said he needed a ridiculous amount of cysts to get from one harvester to another. So stretching the maps would also mean a rebalance of cysts.
I don't think marines need to be slowed down, considering it's a sprint it feels very slow already. But Marines should get exhausted and maybe get an accuracy penalty when draining the stamina completely.
Yup, takes 50 seconds for 1 skulk to kill a marine RT. 10 seconds for one lone marine to build one (like 5 seconds if you have 2 rines), when you combine that with sprint in the early game its pretty common place to see marines with like 4+ RTs up and going before the 2nd alien RT even finishes growing.
That would actually benefit the marines more than the aliens. Marines have the phasegate and the beacon with the observatory and not to forget the problematic sprint. Aliens have only celerity, and only if they have a shift and only if they have the upgrade slot for it. Well at least that's how i feel about it.
Edit:
And i don't think the NS1 maps were really this much bigger. I'd say they were similar to the current size of mineshaft. In a lot of maps there were fewer direct connections, you had to walk detours. There were ladders and elevators or even large doors like on ns_bast you had to use to move on.
Aliens could also have hiveteleportating similiar like NS1.
But AFAIK this isn't planned, celerity is the asymmetric counter part to the phase gate.
Even then, bhopping was massively more effective than wall jumping is now. Whereas wall jumping offers maybe a 50% speed increase with a fair amount of practice, bhopping was easily doubling the speeds of people who had barely grasped the concept. Real pro bhoppers could go up to 3-4 times faster. I think its safe to say that, wall jumping or not, marines are much closer to the speed of aliens, which I don't think is a good thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If i compare NS1 with NS2 = Maps are smaller, marines are faster, PG is still the same, Aliens lost hiveteleportating,aliens are slower(carapace, onos). And celerity(which is nearly similiar to NS1 celerity) is the counter for all of this?
That was to be expected that rines get much more mobility. I would say the mobility ,between rines and aliens, is only different. The impact/power of both factions is the same.
Right, but I think that's the root of the issue. Ns1 marines had jp and phase for fast movement, and ns1 aliens had movement chamber teleport, hive teleport, and celerity. Ns2 marines have jp, phase, and sprint, while aliens gained nothing, and actually lost movement chamber teleport and hive teleport.
That's a major swing in movement options between ns1 and ns2.
I don't see a real problem here.
Beside that, I would love to be able to put a tf2-teleporter-like hole as the gorge. But this has to be balanced again. Right now you only have observed, that it is asymmetric. But a problem?
Marine default speed: 5
Marine sprint speed: 6 (6.3 w/ axe out)
Marines run slower with heavier weapons, but sprint is mostly a problem because as mentioned above is that they can sprint through the map to snipe RTs early, and another trend I see in gathers/comp games is that you see them deny second hive expos with ease as well because of the mobility, aliens must race them to defend a position instead of relying on the sound tactics of ambushing/setting up beforehand NS1 style.
You can get usually 2/3rds across the map on one sprint as a marine, prolly half way on the bigger maps. I agree with Industry that it makes the maps just feel smaller, too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm willing to consider this is the inherent strategy for any version of Natural Selection. It has always been like this. Early game is about res control and pressure. We should just be patient and see how this fleshes out.
I personaly think marine speed is fine but from the moment you have stopped sprinting its not long before you can sprint again. I think sprint should have like a 10-15 second cool down or something, so they are only used for quickly getting somewhere when they are quickly needed but then they cant escape fast if needed. Or they can go somewhere at normal speed but can exit quickly when needed and not both.