Allow 4th Alien Upgrade with 4 Hives
Nakorson
Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140253Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140253Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
The topic says it all. Currently aliens gain "nothing" with their 4th hive. They can't chose a 4th upgrade. So i say lets give them the option for a 4th upgrade. If the aliens have already 4 hives it is already over anyway in 95% of all cases. This would make it easier for the aliens to end those long stalemates.
Edit:
And obviously a 5th upgrade if aliens have 5 hives.
It could be a extra upgrade for the hive, like evolving it to a crag or shift hive.
Edit:
And obviously a 5th upgrade if aliens have 5 hives.
It could be a extra upgrade for the hive, like evolving it to a crag or shift hive.
Comments
Perhaps:
Alien Superweapon: Hyper-agressive Infestation (or some other way more imaginative name): basically infestation rushes into the enemy base like the clappers but it is poisonus and damages buildings (rather like the tenticle fields in tiberian sun :P )
Marrine Superweapon: Toxin of some sort that again poisons the aliens in the most grusome discintigration coolest way possible for a final hurrah! :P
Hey they are on the spot ideas but an endgame device is definatly needed i think
I'm not sure if you did understand my idea or maybe i'm not understand you.
I don't want to add a 4th hive type in general. I want that aliens with 4+ hives are allowed to chose 2 upgrades from the same chamber which is currently not possible. You can currently either pick carapace or regeneration, not both. I think it would improve the lategame to allow aliens to upgrade both, or celerity and adrenaline, etc.
It could be a "unlock additional upgrade hive" in addition to crag, shift and shade or just be available once the 4th hive is complete.
I don't want to add a 4th hive type in general. I want that aliens with 4+ hives are allowed to chose 2 upgrades from the same chamber which is currently not possible. You can currently either pick carapace or regeneration, not both. I think it would improve the lategame to allow aliens to upgrade both, or celerity and adrenaline, etc.
It could be a "unlock additional upgrade hive" in addition to crag, shift and shade or just be available once the 4th hive is complete.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My bad, early in the morning. I see what you are saying now. Instead of this I would like to see a removing of all the tech points except for 3 (and 1 at marine start) and make tech point locations more important again/ bigger maps.
Bit if the ability remained to put up more than 3 hives i agree with you. 2 Crag hives should allow for 2 Crag upgrades. A nice game ender without adding a superweapon.
Edit:
And obviously a 5th upgrade if aliens have 5 hives.
It could be a extra upgrade for the hive, like evolving it to a crag or shift hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
or simply remove the limit on multiple upgrades from same hive (seeing as thats whats created the problem).
or simply remove the limit on multiple upgrades from same hive (seeing as thats whats created the problem).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Carapace and Regeneration is very powerful, to balance them right is not a easy task. I don't want to say that UWE won't be able to do this, but the current solution with only 1 upgrade from each chamber works well in my eyes. But removing the cap with the 4th hive would help to end long games.
I'd love to see some kind of benefit given to the team that has most map control, especially if it ads up over time. Ie; hold a 4th hive/CC for X time and everyone gets X bonus resources. As time goes on the bonus could come faster and faster.
No matter how efficient a team can turtle they wouldn't be able to withstand onos wave after onos wave.
I would like this, although I cannot think of any particularly good ones. My bad ideas:
<ul><li>Hyperinfestation. Cysts are built mature and immediately. Makes alien advance much easier and allows alien commander to echo into bases.</li><li>Hypermutation. Remove the ability from the shift hive, because no one uses it anymore. Instead this end game ability will significantly reduce alien evolution costs, allowing constant high-lifeform rushes.</li></ul>
Having the fourth hive + ability means khammanders will research a second crag hive, aliens will take cara + regen and the game will end that much sooner.
Yesterday three gorges got into our main base undetected. It took less than a beacon, to level the whole damn place. Get a couple lerks and a fade to cover those gorges, should break pretty much any turtle.
EDIT: I agree though - when aliens have all hive types, the next hive should be available as any type of hive and allow a 2nd upgrade of that type. Can't really see why not.
A few comments in this thread talk about stalemates. If the problem is stalemates, this suggestion won't do anything to solve it. The same possibility of stalemates could be found prior to the one upgrade per hive limitation. By far the bulk of the blame for for stalemates where one team has clear map superiority falls on poor team coordination, in this build as in other recent builtds. The only exception I'd make is that some maps & tech points are more difficult to crack than others. In particular, Docking where marines hold Terminal and Cafeteria (because of the strength of the choke points) and to a <b>much</b> lesser extent when marines have just one tech point on Summit at DC or Flight (DC because stomp doesn't work uphill and Flight because of the huge distance aliens have to travel where mariens have line of fire).
Stalemates are a problem for NS and UWE have gone to extreme lengths to prevent it without addressing it head on. Namely, weakening powernodes, sentry nerfing & the armoury resupply mechanics.
<!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->>give 4th hive a game finishing ability to the commander. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
That goes against one of the stated design philosophies. Unfortunately that philosophy seems to disregard the effect it has on the possibility of stalemates. While it's currently not much of a problem, it has been a recurring and extreme problem in builds past
<!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->>hypermutation upgrade to unlock hive-to-ability limits. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I don't know what this means.
So if you build and upgrade two shell hives, you get to have regen and cara.
Or if in this case you somehow gain 4 hives, you can get to have ether:
One of each type of upgrade and a second shell/veil/spur upgrade
Or 2 shell upgrades and 2 veils upgrades
Or 2 shells upgrades and 2 spurs upgrades
Or 2 veils upgrades and 2 spurs upgrades
Or 1 shell upgrade and 3 veil upgrades
or 1 shell upgrade and 3 spur upgrades
etc etc.
You can see how this idea would allow options.
So if you build and upgrade two shell hives, you get to have regen and cara.
Or if in this case you somehow gain 4 hives, you can get to have ether:
One of each type of upgrade and a second shell/veil/spur upgrade
Or 2 shell upgrades and 2 veils upgrades
Or 2 shells upgrades and 2 spurs upgrades
Or 2 veils upgrades and 2 spurs upgrades
Or 1 shell upgrade and 3 veil upgrades
or 1 shell upgrade and 3 spur upgrades
etc etc.
You can see how this idea would allow options.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would be interesting. I cannot see anyone getting a second hive of the same type, before getting all 3 of different types due to the structures they unlock. Need adrenalien, shades and crags - thats all the hives required.
I like the idea of multiple hives of the same type allowing you to get two upgrades from the chamber path, with the balance of evolving the 2nd hive of that type costs double the TRes (i.e. first crag hive = 20 TRes, second crag hive = 40 TRes).
I don't know what this means.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
evolve hypermutation -> lifeforms are no longer limited to 1 upgrade/hive type. i.e. can get both cara and regen.
Thanks for clarifying. That could work. Of course, the fundamental problem is that cara & regen are more desirable than the other upgrades. It just depends on how commited UWE is to forcing aliens to use less powerful combinations.
What I would like to see is
4th hive/CC finishes building
Visable timer/progress bar apears on the enemy screen
This let the team on the losing side 5 mins to pull their ###### together and gives them a clear objective get the 4th hive / CC down ( most team probs wil not see what happens after 5 mins as in their push out they probs lose the base but both team will enjoy it better also swaps thing around rather than the losing team trying to keep other team out the winning team are trying to keep them in :P
After 5 mins bar/timer reaches its end and somthing big happens(not sure what) but kills all of the losing side outright
I think something like this will help alot as it doesn't rebalance the game in anyway as there would be no new upgrades just a gd fun way to end it which lets face it is better than "getting the power down" lol
Late game commanding for aliens is pretty boring, giving the commander an incentive to go for a 4th hive other than area denial would be great.
Even the battle between Cara and Regen is kinda one-sided, since in a game where you can get one-shotted by a couple of marines as pretty much any lifeform, you will always, ALWAYS want extra tanking power. True, some Fades are taking regen, but I doubt that's just on pubs. When marines have decent aim, a weapon level or two and shotguns, you can't really afford the luxury of regen.
That's essentialy what you want, correct?
I would have thought that holding all of the techpoints and respoints on the map means that the you already have a huge advantage pretty much unlimited res flow.
The fourth hive when built automatically evolves into hyper-mutation (allowing for 2 choices from save hive type) the cost of the fourth hive is slightly higher to compensate for the auto upgrade.
This also eliminates the option of choosing hyper-mutation hive as 2nd or 3rd hive and ensuring its up only after the other 3.
As an added bonus the ability to hyper-mutate 2 upgrades also upgrades the infestation to do damage to marines, this means that creep coming into the last stronghold will help weaken all defenses.
I would also like to see a return of healing bed, perhaps this would come in nicely at 4th hive..helping aliens finish that final push quicker and saving marines from having to recycle from boredom.
There should really be a usefulness of the 4th hive / cc, for consistency sake and to end stalemates faster. Even the suggested countdown on 4th hive that ends the game is a good idea. (It doesn't matter if it is against the design doc!) This atom-bomb-button would not touch the normal game that ends before a 4th hive is ever build. But it will set a final end to a long lasting already decided game. There can't be a tech rush to the 4th hive / cc because the game already ended when one team has 4 tech points. (It just drags on after that and this isn't fun.)
Say what you want, but comebacks in THIS stage of the game only happen because of the winning team F4s because of boredom. This is not a fun mechanic and should <u>never</u> be preferred to a 5min countdown that gives the losing team a last chance of a comeback and the winning team a better chance of destroying the last base.
Another solution could be to look at the origins of the problem and the change. The change wasn't implemented to prohibit the use of silence+cloak or adrenaline+celerity. That never made aliens imba. It was only implemented to prohibit the use of cara+regen. So the whole problem originates AGAIN from carapace. And I say again: Scrap carapace. Add a fixed bonus of armor for every upgrade you evolve (No matter what.) And introduce focus instead. This will scale better with marine upgrades. There is no more need to prohibit the use of more upgrades from the same hive. It will be easier to balance the other upgrades. It will add more variety in upgrade-hive-orders. Skulks will scale better.
I can't see why they are holding onto carapace. An upgrade that increases your durability will always be the first choice. And therefore there is no choice. Either you take cara first, or you are damaging your team.
Don't be afraid that you would need to scrap the nice shell-model. The shell could be a building that is independent from the hive-paths. With this building placed, every alien gets a plus on armor for every upgrade it evolves.