Is the current carapace a placeholder?
Imbalanxd
Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
<div class="IPBDescription">"upgrade" is unintuitive and inconsistent</div>Correct me if I'm wrong, but carapace is the only "upgrade" that has a negative side affect. I put upgrade in inverted commas because, strictly speaking, carapace is not an upgrade, its a paradigm shift. You sacrifice speed and maneuverability for armour and endurance. Whether or not you gain something is debatable, and I think most people would say that you do (including me), but you don't strictly come out on top in all situations, and it differs from person to person.
So this raises an issue, in my opinion. Regeneration is useless for skulks, I'm stating that almost as fact. Its just plain pointless, its like getting silence on an Onos. But what if you are the kind of person who prefers speed to endurance, and therefore don't want to be slowed down by carapace? What option do you have?
So this raises an issue, in my opinion. Regeneration is useless for skulks, I'm stating that almost as fact. Its just plain pointless, its like getting silence on an Onos. But what if you are the kind of person who prefers speed to endurance, and therefore don't want to be slowed down by carapace? What option do you have?
Comments
Cara was so OP it needed a negative sideeffect (which is a very good mechanic imo), otherwise it would be the default upgrade better than any other.
So to answer your question better: get another of the available upgrades.
As a marine, you buy armor, it has no effect, new weapons(Flame, GL) make you slower.
You see what they did there....
1 team gets a speed loss on weapons, 1 team gets a speed loss on armor, it's kind of asyncronous, but balanced...
I understand what you mean, and I have personally removed it in my mod, but carapace without a drawback was overpowered, nerf the carapace strength, and then it just becomes pointless. This is the best solution to counter that unfortunately.
As for your options, save your res and wait for the 2nd hive, or suggest your comm plays a different strat and go shift first so you can have celerity :)
EDIT------
But it does beg the question, if they removed the slow down on cara, and the slowdown on weapons, would the carapace skulk still be too OP?
Also, most people compare weapons to life forms, though any comparison, be it between lifeforms or abilities, seems inaccurate and futile.
1. Carapace in NS1 only gave skulks 20 extra armor, not 40.
2. The Goldsource engine has superior hit reg compared to NS2.
3. Marines had better movement mechanics because of the goldsource engine; they could dodge.
4. Going DC first is less practical than going MC first in NS1. (MC's gave the advantage of getting to a hive faster, improving movement for all life forms with celerity and the occasional lerk that goes adrenaline).
Carapace isn't terrible in NS1. On the contrary, in a big game 12v12 and higher, getting DC's as the second chamber has a better statistical win rate than sensory chambers second.
However, in a smaller game...lets say 6v6....going MC's first then SC's has a better win rate because of focus as the second upgrade along with celerity. These upgrades were mostly used for skulks and fades. I've seen lerks totally negate celerity all together and go for adrenaline for more of a support spore spam role.
Either way, carapace in NS1 worked well for all life forms, just don't expect to kill an hmger or a sger that can aim as a skulk with carapace.
Edit: Another reason carapace wasn't overpowred in NS1 was because of bunnyhopping. Bunnyhopping was a form to get you from point A to point B much quicker. This was utilized by every half decent player out there. Celerity sped up this process early game. Carapace didn't have any negative side effects but celerity was an overall better upgrade than carapace was early game.
2. The Goldsource engine has superior hit reg compared to NS2.
3. Marines had better movement mechanics because of the goldsource engine; they could dodge.
4. Going DC first is less practical than going MC first in NS1. (MC's gave the advantage of getting to a hive faster, improving movement for all life forms with celerity and the occasional lerk that goes adrenaline).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep. Maps were so big in NS1 you needed the MC (shift) hive first more often than not. Also marines could hit accurately, and bunny hop.
Carapace used to be no slowdown, and 20 armour. Not sure why they made it slowdown and 40 armour.
Carapace used to be no slowdown, and 20 armour. Not sure why they made it slowdown and 40 armour.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed. Surely if the armour is too much, change the armour. Don't make a unit whose signature feature is speed, slower.
It isn't fun, it doesn't change your play style, it just makes you live longer, but that makes it superior to all other upgrades.
Let the commander research armor for all aliens.
On the other hand, if there were NO slower speed trade-off, I most definitely would've gotten carapace all the time considering I can move out fast enough to regenerate health back in the hive/gorge.
i like that change.
however, i read somewhere that regeneration also has a drawback, which is the sound it is making (allows nearby marines to heard and find you when you're hiding). so will this sound be removed or be reduced to a player-only sound?
on an unrelated note:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Regeneration is useless for skulks<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i have to disagree. it might not be useful in all-in combat, but it is not supposed to. you can use it very well combined with leap to roam the map in order to attack extractors or bases, escaping as soon as the marines open fire. you might take a few hits but likely survive. due to regen, you can keep this up until they dispatch several marines to hunt you down (= quite a distraction). this can be surprisingly effective, even when you are facing enemies you can rarely ever defeat in direct combat, simply because you are much faster (not only in basespeed but also by things like leap and the usage of vents) which makes it hard for them to defend all locations at once (you have to avoid using obvious patterns though).
furthermore, feign death is reactivated whenever you are fully healed. so this goes well with regen, too.
I get regen as fade because you can do hit-and-run attacks much faster (don't have to find a gorge/hive to heal).
It isn't fun, it doesn't change your play style, it just makes you live longer, but that makes it superior to all other upgrades.
Let the commander research armor for all aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Me too and it's beyond my comprehension as to why and how Charlie and co. did not learn from NS1 in this regard. A large fixed armor increase just does not work all that well as it tends to make one team overpowered early game and underpowered late game. Although if they actually remove carapace, there'd be only one upgrade left for the crag hive to grant: regeneration. To solve that, they should remove the highly annoying feint death and replace it with trusty old redemption.
<!--quoteo(post=1966210:date=Aug 23 2012, 09:42 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Aug 23 2012, 09:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966210"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The +40 armor is being reverted to +20 armor in b217. The slowdown should also be reverted, at least for skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds good, I guess.
Fade should take 3 with carapace, and 3 without it (different issue tho).
Carapace is fine how it was in NS1, it wasnt overpowered or an upgrade you would get every time (although as alien skill slipped it became prefered to regen). Once its back to a normal level for skulks carapace will be fine. The trade off of not having the other upgrades makes it perfectly viable, although regen does need to be changed back somewhat (3-4% heal per tick always, regardless of if your in combat or not).
It isn't fun, it doesn't change your play style, it just makes you live longer, but that makes it superior to all other upgrades.
Let the commander research armor for all aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm all for this. Give aliens 'cog armour' as someone has suggested before, instead of carapace which becomes a mandatory upgrade.
Wouldn't that make regen superior to carapace overall? They would both give you more effective HP in combat, but regen would also heal you up out of combat.
Would have to do some math on that I guess (I am thinking for fade+onos in specific, it would probably be a fine side-grade for skulk/lerk/gorge).
Now were stuck with a ######, outdated tech system for aliens with upgrades that have too many drawbacks that makes them ineffective to the point where you're practically playing the game without them. Removing them would barely make a difference. They're only there at this point to give an illusion of choice for alien players because the complete lack and utter joke of choices aliens have in this game.
Cara was so OP it needed a negative sideeffect (which is a very good mechanic imo), otherwise it would be the default upgrade better than any other.
So to answer your question better: get another of the available upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not quite accurate, Carapace was buffed substantially in order to give it the speed drawback in the same patch, which ended up making it even more OP. It was an experiment and IMO it simply isn't working.
Alien upgrade viability really needs a whole lot of work. I wouldn't be opposed to seeing Cara removed entirely. Making basic survivability a part of the upgrade system is always going to skew things - if it were up to me I would ditch Cara, come up with another Crag idea and give Aliens back their armor upgrades to let them scale into late game.
Also, most people compare weapons to life forms, though any comparison, be it between lifeforms or abilities, seems inaccurate and futile.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because you had to build 3 DC chambers to get the full carapace upgrade, in NS2 you just build 1.
This is why people think Carapace os OP'd (exept those that try to play skulk late game) as you go from vanilla to end game armour with no scaling.
Imagine marines going from no armour to A3...its the lack of scaling that causes the issue.
Alien upgrade viability really needs a whole lot of work. I wouldn't be opposed to seeing Cara removed entirely. Making basic survivability a part of the upgrade system is always going to skew things - if it were up to me I would ditch Cara, come up with another Crag idea and give Aliens back their armor upgrades to let them scale into late game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hm, I thought the big cara boost happened shortly after shotguns were changed from light to medium damage. I wish there was a way to view all the past patch notes.
Completely reworking the alien upgrade system to something similar to the marine upgrade system should make balancing a lot easier. This would also make the sides more symmetrical, however, which is something I vehemently oppose. It could also introduce new problems and would require a lot of work to implement at this point.
The problems with the current upgrade system can be traced back to:
1. The alien commander (trying to adapt a FPS player controlled upgrade system (NS1) to a commander controlled upgrade system (NS2) is daunting, to say the least).
2. Poor implementation of certain upgrades (carapace, regen, celerity, cloaking come to mind).
3. Poor implementation of upgrade availability (each upgrade has to be researching, which in effect means you'll only get one upgrade from each chamber, can also be traced back to 1.).
4. Poor implementation of the support chambers (basically useless, can be traced back to 1.).
I outlined a potential way to fix it in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=120054&st=0&p=1961513&#entry1961513" target="_blank">this thread</a>. Unfortunately, there hasn't been much response, other than "but what about the poor alien commander???" which is completely missing the point.
Why does it seem that as soon as I implement a feature change in my mod, it gets put into NS2, making my coding effort wasted :P This has happened loads over this last year of development, I am starting to feel the devs are stealing my mod from under me......
i.e. having regen + celerity + silence give a total of +20 armor to skulks (or something). Cara could still be in, just gives a larger armor bonus (very much reduced from its current state) and sacrifices a different upgrade.
For instance (with 3 hives) regen+celerity+silence skulk would have 70/30 hp/armor, and with cara instead, would have 70/40, and no regen.
This could give aliens "scaling" into late game, and make carapace an extra boost to armor at the cost of other abilities (crag would need a third ability). This makes sense to me as the more upgrades a lifeform has (that is, the more hives the team has) the stronger the lifeform is by default.
Alien evolutions are not tied to structures. The com can drop what ever structure, but only 1 type per hive. Just like lifeforms cost res, each evolutions cost different res. The best like carapace would cost more than celerity. Celerity would cost more than silence etc.. There are different levels of evolutions depending on hives. Ex.: 2 hives - 2 levels of carapace, 2 levels of celerity, etc. available at additional costs. 3 hives - 3 level shade - total invisibility, 3 level carapace - max armor. All of a player's res is refunded if the player wants to switch lifeforms or evolutions at any time. It is risky, because if a player dies he loses all the res he has spent. Lifeforms should also be cheaper to allow a player to risk his res.
Advantages: No more player raging "com why didn't your get cara first!". More tactics - mix and match any evolution possible. Com not worrying about losing an upgrade structure and hiding it in the back of the base. Balances out evolutions with res cost. Lets players spend their res more often instead of saving for only fade or onos.
*jaw drops*
Genius!!
Edit: though that does force you into cara should you wish to scale.. Making it the preferred choice again.