Well gosh pub stomping all day is so rewarding who would ever want to play the game competitively.. let alone with a team that practices almost EVERY DAY....
Now i truly understand why Multi warned me about NS pubbers...
<!--quoteo(post=1968674:date=Aug 30 2012, 12:53 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Aug 30 2012, 12:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968674"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well said .ADHd, if a bit overzealous. I'm not sure who or when others in this community played NS1 competitively, but I distinctly recall that Bunnyhopping and anything resembling it was not allowed in competitive games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very incorrect.
I don't know what period you played, but bhop was allowed from 1.04 - 3.2. It has always been allowed..
What is with the horrible attitudes and angry tempers?
This was a huge patch, clearly not 100% tested, balanced, with plenty of work to do.. it's great to give feedback.. but sheesh, take it easy.
This patch is amazing, and I'm loving every moment of it. No it's not perfect, but it's a step in the right direction, a large one at that!
For the first time I can play without massive lag spikes every time a skulk or fade gets near me. My phenom x6 1100t wasn't great in the previous patches. I play buttery smooth now. The past few games have been so great, nail biting and intense at every corner, some lasting 2 hours. I cannot ask for more.
<!--quoteo(post=1968681:date=Aug 29 2012, 10:19 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Aug 29 2012, 10:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968681"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Explains a lot about why you quit NS1 and your other views... Bunnyhopping was accepted in NS1 (atleast in the competitive community), and was arguably a huge part of the game throughout its life (and still is). Comparing the previous wallhop to bhop is a very bad comparison, as bunnyhopping did not make you harder to hit, or mess with your hitbox.. if you wanted to do that in NS1 you would just A-D skulk...
Personally I think the wallhop in this build is more balanced than previous ones, and it can still be effective when used correctly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure if you are reffering to me, but I still play NS1 on a regular basis, and I love the bunnyhop in NS1. It doesn't make skulks any harder to hit... at least for me. When you leave the ground you make yourself go on a predictable path.
In this current build I think the walljumping is awesome. You can still do it reliably with leap or celerity, but it's gonna be a lot more difficult to do the little 2 wall jumping trick now...
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1968682:date=Aug 30 2012, 04:33 AM:name=OnosFactory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Aug 30 2012, 04:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968682"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wonder what people like fana and elodea would feel like pubbing against enemies as blessed are they are in natural gaming skill.
I'm pretty sure it would soon devolve into 'it's not skill based, its an exploit' style debate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've read this about 20 times and it still doesn't make any sense.
<!--quoteo(post=1968681:date=Aug 30 2012, 04:19 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Aug 30 2012, 04:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968681"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally I think the wallhop in this build is more balanced than previous ones, and it can still be effective when used correctly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I more or less agree with the rest of your post, but this just isn't true. The bugged b217 walljump is even less useful than the NS1 walljump.
Ideally, I would want a completely different movement mechanic for the skulks, but if the choice is between walljump and nothing at all, it really isn't a choice at all.
QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Aug 30 2012, 04:33 AM) * I wonder what people like fana and elodea would feel like pubbing against enemies as blessed are they are in natural gaming skill.
I'm pretty sure it would soon devolve into 'it's not skill based, its an exploit' style debate.
I've read this about 20 times and it still doesn't make any sense.
^^^
rofl, I read it close to 20 times and am also confused.
IDK i can still get a reasonable speed increase from wallhop, its not something instant but chaining them from a room before i can usually enter fights at roughly 10+ speed still even without celerity, which is comperable to the speed you could gain from bhop (i think, i forget base skulk speed with celerity, i remember +-530 units when bhopping tho).
<!--quoteo(post=1968804:date=Aug 30 2012, 01:38 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Aug 30 2012, 01:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968804"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(i think, i forget base skulk speed with celerity, i remember +-530 units when bhopping tho).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think skulk base speed is 290. Bhop allows you to go about 1.8 times the base speed. Celerity lvl 3 adds 30% to base speed. I think that covers it until leap kicks in.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1968804:date=Aug 30 2012, 01:38 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Aug 30 2012, 01:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968804"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IDK i can still get a reasonable speed increase from wallhop, its not something instant but chaining them from a room before i can usually enter fights at roughly 10+ speed still even without celerity, which is comperable to the speed you could gain from bhop (i think, i forget base skulk speed with celerity, i remember +-530 units when bhopping tho).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In b217? My experience is that it is more or less impossible to chain wall jumps in the current build -- it pushes you down to the floor after the second jump.
I should also add that, barring the reintroduction of bunnyhopping, walljumping needs to have a greater peak speed increase than bunnyhopping had in NS, because jumping between walls is a highly inefficient method of forward movement. A speed cap of 12 should do.
Yep in b217. Its not really wallhopping more like wallfloor hop but I still manage to build speed and make use of it, its only the second jump that seems to introduce the sharp downward momentum spike so you can wall-wall then floor then back to wall and so on.
I can post of video later i made from 217 when i was trying to evaluate it.
I know its already been stated that the devs are going to resolve the wallhoping issue next patch, but I was just wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience to one I had last night. I was climbing a wall as a skulk, and tried to jump away from it, I think I was in logistics on...tram? At anyrate, instead of moving in the direction I was facing, I fell straight down at <i>incredible</i> speed (teleport might be a better word) and actually got stuck in the floor so that I couldn't move. I couldn't even turn actually, I was completely stuck.
I know it wasn't just me imagining things because it actually took a moment for the two marines, who were already shooting at me, to figure out where I had gone.
I've not played around with wall jumping to really know how it works, but I've never had something like this happen to me before, and I cant seem to replicate the effect.
True you would need to gain more speed from wallhop to keep pace with bhop since its much less direct.. honestly i still think wallhop has a decent place as a utility but not the main movement mechanic..
<a href="http://youtu.be/jGqDzMtqg2Q" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/jGqDzMtqg2Q</a> is the video of my experiment, complete with no sound and my bad fps :<
I wouldn't be opposed to making the walljump like it was in NS1... something you <i>could</i> do in certain situations but not the main focus. You couldn't control it nearly as accurately as you can in NS2.
My idea is to make the player lose a bit of speed when hitting the floor when coming from a wall jump... to encourage people not to be on the ground as skulks. If that were to happen then the walljumping needs to have a buff in initial acceleration though.
Either we need bhop back or to have an improved yet more limited version of walljump.
Dropping to the ground in build 217 is apparently a bug due to the new physics changes... I don't like the paper weight effect but I do like how walljump exploiting has been seriously stunted this patch. We need a way to bring walljump back in all its glory but make it much more difficult and have more penalties for hitting objects and odd terrain.
I'm getting kind of bored of playing the ambush skulk in these last few builds. It's not as rewarding having to bite a marine in the ass to kill him over doing awesome leaps and jumps over all kinds of stuff in the map to close the gap and get a kill. Feels a lot more satisfying and makes the player feel more rewarded. That is a matter of opinion I guess, but I've yet to see a person who isn't somewhat upset that walljumping has been ruined so hard.
All we need is a friggin speed cap and penalties for running into crap and everything would be fine.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1967980:date=Aug 29 2012, 06:24 AM:name=stinghawk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stinghawk @ Aug 29 2012, 06:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967980"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sure all of the blatant negative changes will be adjusted soon enough, before 1.0
In regards to the exo suits. I believe that they are flawed in several ways.
1. They can't go through phase gates. I don't get it but not a big deal 2. I fail to understand the bullet spread. When I aim I just try to have my target in the circle and hope I hit the damn skulks. 3. They can't build structures. Why?! 4. And this is the one that bothered me the most, they can't be beaconed back to a base.... As a commander I had established a second base in pipeline while aliens had two hives. Game was even. Exo suits were done with weapons and armor 2. All of a sudden onoses are raping my expansion. Half my team were in exo suits. I was sure we would hold until I found out half my team and all of my damage power didn't get teleported (players in exos).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The main reason Exos can be as tactially powerful as they are isn't that they cost 50 tres - so do a JP/GL/Welder marine. The reason is that an an Exo sacrifices strategic mobility for tactical bad-assness. This means that the marines take a risk if too many go Exo - their main base can now be taken out by a fast alien rush because they can't get back to it in time.
That means that you may need to leave an Exo close to the base, just in case - or spend a lot of tres on sentries to give you an edge in defending the base.
Beaconing back your marines to save your main base will leave your Exos alone. Hope you sent along a couple of MACs to repair them... because they are now without GL/FT/welder support. And they are slow. And the aliens are angry...
Welcome to the wonderful world of having to make hard choices.
Comments
Now i truly understand why Multi warned me about NS pubbers...
Very incorrect.
I don't know what period you played, but bhop was allowed from 1.04 - 3.2. It has always been allowed..
I don't know what period you played, but bhop was allowed from 1.04 - 3.2. It has always been allowed..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you were in the pro scene of NS1, you learned to bhop.
I once got called out as the slowest bhopping Gorge they'd ever seen.
This was a huge patch, clearly not 100% tested, balanced, with plenty of work to do.. it's great to give feedback.. but sheesh, take it easy.
This patch is amazing, and I'm loving every moment of it. No it's not perfect, but it's a step in the right direction, a large one at that!
For the first time I can play without massive lag spikes every time a skulk or fade gets near me. My phenom x6 1100t wasn't great in the previous patches. I play buttery smooth now. The past few games have been so great, nail biting and intense at every corner, some lasting 2 hours. I cannot ask for more.
Personally I think the wallhop in this build is more balanced than previous ones, and it can still be effective when used correctly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure if you are reffering to me, but I still play NS1 on a regular basis, and I love the bunnyhop in NS1. It doesn't make skulks any harder to hit... at least for me. When you leave the ground you make yourself go on a predictable path.
In this current build I think the walljumping is awesome. You can still do it reliably with leap or celerity, but it's gonna be a lot more difficult to do the little 2 wall jumping trick now...
@ADHD
He was refering to reddragon claiming bhop was illegal or some random made up bull###### in competitive play.
I'm pretty sure it would soon devolve into 'it's not skill based, its an exploit' style debate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've read this about 20 times and it still doesn't make any sense.
<!--quoteo(post=1968681:date=Aug 30 2012, 04:19 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Aug 30 2012, 04:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968681"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally I think the wallhop in this build is more balanced than previous ones, and it can still be effective when used correctly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I more or less agree with the rest of your post, but this just isn't true. The bugged b217 walljump is even less useful than the NS1 walljump.
Ideally, I would want a completely different movement mechanic for the skulks, but if the choice is between walljump and nothing at all, it really isn't a choice at all.
I wonder what people like fana and elodea would feel like pubbing against enemies as blessed are they are in natural gaming skill.
I'm pretty sure it would soon devolve into 'it's not skill based, its an exploit' style debate.
I've read this about 20 times and it still doesn't make any sense.
^^^
rofl, I read it close to 20 times and am also confused.
I think skulk base speed is 290. Bhop allows you to go about 1.8 times the base speed. Celerity lvl 3 adds 30% to base speed. I think that covers it until leap kicks in.
In b217? My experience is that it is more or less impossible to chain wall jumps in the current build -- it pushes you down to the floor after the second jump.
I should also add that, barring the reintroduction of bunnyhopping, walljumping needs to have a greater peak speed increase than bunnyhopping had in NS, because jumping between walls is a highly inefficient method of forward movement. A speed cap of 12 should do.
I can post of video later i made from 217 when i was trying to evaluate it.
I know it wasn't just me imagining things because it actually took a moment for the two marines, who were already shooting at me, to figure out where I had gone.
I've not played around with wall jumping to really know how it works, but I've never had something like this happen to me before, and I cant seem to replicate the effect.
<a href="http://youtu.be/jGqDzMtqg2Q" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/jGqDzMtqg2Q</a> is the video of my experiment, complete with no sound and my bad fps :<
My idea is to make the player lose a bit of speed when hitting the floor when coming from a wall jump... to encourage people not to be on the ground as skulks. If that were to happen then the walljumping needs to have a buff in initial acceleration though.
Either we need bhop back or to have an improved yet more limited version of walljump.
Dropping to the ground in build 217 is apparently a bug due to the new physics changes... I don't like the paper weight effect but I do like how walljump exploiting has been seriously stunted this patch. We need a way to bring walljump back in all its glory but make it much more difficult and have more penalties for hitting objects and odd terrain.
I'm getting kind of bored of playing the ambush skulk in these last few builds. It's not as rewarding having to bite a marine in the ass to kill him over doing awesome leaps and jumps over all kinds of stuff in the map to close the gap and get a kill. Feels a lot more satisfying and makes the player feel more rewarded. That is a matter of opinion I guess, but I've yet to see a person who isn't somewhat upset that walljumping has been ruined so hard.
All we need is a friggin speed cap and penalties for running into crap and everything would be fine.
In regards to the exo suits. I believe that they are flawed in several ways.
1. They can't go through phase gates. I don't get it but not a big deal
2. I fail to understand the bullet spread. When I aim I just try to have my target in the circle and hope I hit the damn skulks.
3. They can't build structures. Why?!
4. And this is the one that bothered me the most, they can't be beaconed back to a base.... As a commander I had established a second base in pipeline while aliens had two hives. Game was even. Exo suits were done with weapons and armor 2. All of a sudden onoses are raping my expansion. Half my team were in exo suits. I was sure we would hold until I found out half my team and all of my damage power didn't get teleported (players in exos).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The main reason Exos can be as tactially powerful as they are isn't that they cost 50 tres - so do a JP/GL/Welder marine. The reason is that an an Exo sacrifices strategic mobility for tactical bad-assness. This means that the marines take a risk if too many go Exo - their main base can now be taken out by a fast alien rush because they can't get back to it in time.
That means that you may need to leave an Exo close to the base, just in case - or spend a lot of tres on sentries to give you an edge in defending the base.
Beaconing back your marines to save your main base will leave your Exos alone. Hope you sent along a couple of MACs to repair them... because they are now without GL/FT/welder support. And they are slow. And the aliens are angry...
Welcome to the wonderful world of having to make hard choices.
Welcome to NS2.