What is up with the Gorge in 217?
Daphisto
Hive Janitor Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8917Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Hive Janitor Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8917Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">Interesting design changes. Please help me understand.</div>I was surprised to see hydras costing res again. 3 res per hydra. I was further surprised to see there is still a hard limit to the # of hydras is still 3.
I have enjoyed playing as the Gorge in the last few builds, so I gave the Gorge a whirl in 217 to see how he played.
It seems that the hydras are pretty much as weak as they were in 216, which means 1-2 marines can take them out without much difficulty, if they are not being actively healed by a Gorge.
Exo suit can take down a hydras in no time, so don't build hydras when exo's are active. :)
When I played as a marine, I found myself easily running by hydras, not really taking much damage or any damage in some cases.
I am trying to understand what new Gorge strategies we can use now. Do we deploy hydras/clogs in areas we suspect are critical and then babysit them with healspray, until Exo comes along? That feels kind of boring, so I hope that isn't the case. :)
It seems like I am maybe playing the Gorge incorrectly in 217, because he does not seem to be a good return on res investment.
What do you guys think?
I have enjoyed playing as the Gorge in the last few builds, so I gave the Gorge a whirl in 217 to see how he played.
It seems that the hydras are pretty much as weak as they were in 216, which means 1-2 marines can take them out without much difficulty, if they are not being actively healed by a Gorge.
Exo suit can take down a hydras in no time, so don't build hydras when exo's are active. :)
When I played as a marine, I found myself easily running by hydras, not really taking much damage or any damage in some cases.
I am trying to understand what new Gorge strategies we can use now. Do we deploy hydras/clogs in areas we suspect are critical and then babysit them with healspray, until Exo comes along? That feels kind of boring, so I hope that isn't the case. :)
It seems like I am maybe playing the Gorge incorrectly in 217, because he does not seem to be a good return on res investment.
What do you guys think?
Comments
This does seem very strange. I am reluctant to ever go gorge anymore, simply because marines are always everywhere, and they kill a gorge in 2 seconds. The roll of the gorge used to be locking down an important area, but by the time you get to the location and start evolving, there are already 2 or 3 marines waiting at your egg.
Gorges do stack incredibly well however. If you put 3 gorges in a corridor, they could probably prevent upwards of 6 or 7 marines from getting through. However, in the early game, marines hardly ever move in groups of more than 2 or 3, because they just take the entire map and every res point with it.
I do hope the gorge comes right in the future.
Maybe 5 or 10 res depending on how buff they are.
What the devs are going for, with players not supposed to play versus structures but only vs other players is absurd!
Playing vs structures is in no way boring/bad/negative!
NS2 is a strategy game with basebuilding - do you (the devs) realize how that previously mentioned philosophy is hypocritical?
What about free hydras, but when the gorge clicks E on them, he can upgrade them for 3 res which would make them tougher/little more powerful?
What about free hydras, but when the gorge clicks E on them, he can upgrade them for 3 res which would make them tougher/little more powerful?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whatever works. I like the idea of free hydras that can be upgraded to be stronger.
Changed hydra spikes to Normal damage (from Light damage) so they will remain effective throughout the game (esp. vs late game high-armor JP marines).
Gorge structures are now permanent again (they won't die if their owner is no longer a gorge).
--Cory
Having them die in less than 1 weapons 0 lmg clip is too fragile imo. You blink and they are dead, very unforgiving and very weak atm. But the damage change was very nice.
By this I mean it would be cool if the commander saw hydras as something worth getting behind. In NS1, gorges would build defence chambers behind offence chambers in order to make the fortification more... fortified. Now, at least in my opinion, when a comm sees a hydra, he doesn't even really see a "structure". He sees something that is there one second, gone the next.
I would like to see structures really making a difference to hydras, as well as how a gorge places them.
For example, a classic, crags backing up hydras. At the moment crags don't heal hydras anywhere near enough to improve their survivability. If crags healing to hydras was increased by, lets say three times, it would encourage gorges to build a straight line of hydras in front of the crag to cover it, while also receiving heals.
Shifts could increase the speed at which hydras shoot, encouraging gorges to build them in places which aren't obvious until they are already shooting at you, to maximise the number of shots they got off on marines.
Shades could provide a level of "permanent" cloaking to hydras, that is, when hydras shoot, they only partially uncloak, as a moving alien does. They could also silence the sound of hydra shots. Then gorges could place hydras in sneaky and obscure locations, so that marines struggle to find and destroy them as they search an area.
Also this <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=120143" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=120143</a>
Just as a side note, if we want to make each upgrade, shade, crag and shift, equally attractive, I think we need to stop looking solely at the early game effect on skulks, and also try and implement ways in which these upgrades affect the other early game lifeform, the gorge.
Changed hydra spikes to Normal damage (from Light damage) so they will remain effective throughout the game (esp. vs late game high-armor JP marines).
Gorge structures are now permanent again (they won't die if their owner is no longer a gorge).
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, and thats nice - but it doesnt change the fact that they still do less damage than throwing boogers at the marines, and dies just by staring at them slightly to hard.
I can accept the cap, and the res cost - but you need to beef them up to compensate.. Right now nobody cares about them (including the actual gorge) because they do bugger damage and dies the same second the gorge runs out of energy to healspray it.
I can accept the cap, and the res cost - but you need to beef them up to compensate.. Right now nobody cares about them (including the actual gorge) because they do bugger damage and dies the same second the gorge runs out of energy to healspray it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Also, hydras need better/quicker aiming. I can run past 3 hyras and maybe get hit once.
Having them die in less than 1 weapons 0 lmg clip is too fragile imo. You blink and they are dead, very unforgiving and very weak atm. But the damage change was very nice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This ^^
U are currently spending 19 Pres for fragile hydras and the ability to heal. I dont see why anyone should do that. Ambushing Marines as a skulk while they shoot the hydras isnt an option... because the hydras will be destroyed for sure without healing.
Hydras should cost pres to give the marines some kind of reward when they kill them... but they shouldnt be that useless.
"Changed hydra spikes to Normal damage (from Light damage) so they will remain effective throughout the game (esp. vs late game high-armor JP marines)."
"Remain effectice" later on while not being effective in the beginning is a nice statement :D .
Changed hydra spikes to Normal damage (from Light damage) so they will remain effective throughout the game (esp. vs late game high-armor JP marines).
Gorge structures are now permanent again (they won't die if their owner is no longer a gorge).
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Make it so hydras inherit upgrades from the gorge.
So can get regeneration for auto-healing, carapace for more armour, camo, silence, etc.
Not sure how celerity, adrenaline or feint death would work out but whatever I think it would help hydras scale. (Edit: celerity for better tracking? adrenaline for higher rate of fire?)
^^ This seems to be a big problem.
It needs adjustments no matter the cost, to work. Sigh. :-/
It needs adjustments no matter the cost, to work. Sigh. :-/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It didn't work because there was no other change to accompany them. They are still paper thin and so the only thing that changed is the frequency in which you see them. Gorges are however thinking twice about where and how they set them up though, and I personally find that refreshing to see a little tact/skill added to the gorge. Now, if you gave them a bit more HP/AP, some scaling, a bit more accuracy or any combination of the other suggestions I think they'd be in a better spot.
Starting pres will forever remain high, i believe.. sigghh..
Assuming that some kind of timing mechanism is wanted for them- I think it would be simpler and more intuitive to keep them on p-res, for both of these solutions achieve the same end, it's just the p-res timing mechanic is already woven through out the fabric of the other aspect of the game.
I understand what you mean, and it is "simpler" to use pres in that it is a method already in place, but i cannot call it intuitive when there's zero parity to that mechanic other than commanders. (which is exactly whats occurring here, left overs from ns1 resource model)
Not to mention it brings back the same old issues like high starting pres, which means you skip some of the early game (The part i like most) as well as other nasty side effects.
Argh. Whats wrong with a tf2 medic approach of earning your uber/hydras? You end up caring for them as it requires work and attention, encourages proper role use, and its an existing mechanic without any of the downsides that come with pres.
Part of me prefers having free hydras, since it means I can tear down and setup new defensive lines very aggressively.
However on the receiving end, its incredibly annoying to have a pair of gorges camping your team into their base in first few minutes. They replace hydras extremely quickly when a gorge is not alone, and without pres cost they never stop.
One notion that does sound plausible is that players don't like fighting against structures. Lets be honest, coming up against 6 hydras backed by 3 DCs in NS1 was never fun, not unless you had a grenade launcher.
In my opinion, hydras are best used to close off a 2nd hive or guarding vulnerable RT's in the early game. Now this is gonna be a lot more viable again so I am happy with the change.
Hydras shouldn't be able to stop large marine balls or exo trains. They should only be useful for wittling down marines that push too far into alien territory (Before they have teched up).
After that it seems hydras are just more of a support structure that might help a marine take 1 less bite to kill for skulks and etc.
The one thing I didn't like about NS1 was how viable OC spam was. You could drop the things everywhere and completely screw over the marines. I think the gorge is doing well now.
Also, hydras need better/quicker aiming. I can run past 3 hyras and maybe get hit once.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats what clogs are for - they make a physical barrier that the marine can't pass through without spending signicant ammo and time. The hydras then also provide a health cost to the marine trying to get through. Thats why you get both clogs and hydras together, they are to be used together.
Its up to you to place these things in a clever spot, so that the marines can't snipe them easily. Its the placement that makes clogs and hydras effective.
Now that the hydras and clogs remain in the game when to are no longer gorge, you can dump your hydras and clogs out, and then turn into a skulk or lerk and keep playing the game or defend your positon. Or stay as a gorge and heal players elsewhere.
The commander can reinforce your clogs and hydras with a crag and whip.
edit: of course exo's make light work of static defenses. same with the onos making light work of turrets. How else would you defeat the enemy no player units could get through the defenses? The game would never end.
It needs adjustments no matter the cost, to work. Sigh. :-/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What UWE did with hydras in 217 is the worst of both worlds.
I also think the amount of hydras should scale as well, to allow the gorge to have more to do later on.
<!--quoteo(post=1968622:date=Aug 29 2012, 06:11 PM:name=Daphisto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daphisto @ Aug 29 2012, 06:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968622"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What UWE did with hydras in 217 is the worst of both worlds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just.. sigh.. I dont know why we didnt try to make the same adjustments people are suggesting in here already but with the free version, at least to see whether or not it doesn't work because its free. (like i said you can earn it other ways to encourage that feeling of impact) Instead of breaking new ground with a hybrid that neither side of the fence is happy about because....it still needs said adjustments that it never received.
Ah well.