Anyone else find Onos at 5 minutes a bit unbalanced?
Cee Colon Slash
Join Date: 2012-05-25 Member: 152581Members
Join Date: 2012-05-25 Member: 152581Members
<div class="IPBDescription">rethink T-Res egg/weapon purchases!</div>Played two games today where an Onos was on the field just past the five minute mark. How? The Khamm saved up 40 res, couldn't place a hive, so bought an Onos egg instead.
Feels a bit off to me, and it was definitely not fun to watch him rack up 20 kills! Am I alone in thinking the balance is off a bit here?
Feels a bit off to me, and it was definitely not fun to watch him rack up 20 kills! Am I alone in thinking the balance is off a bit here?
Comments
That said, an Onos at 5 minutes really does seem to be a bit much. Late game, one Onos isnt much more than a nuisance, but at 5 minutes? True terror indeed.
I think it boils down to the Pres / Tres system needing another look more than anything else, but I'm honestly not sure what the solution should be as I'm still more familiar with the NS1 resource system than I am NS2's.
Definitely worthy of discussion though.
I haven't khammanded yet in 217, but my understanding is that you don't need two hives, and it is only a 40 TRes investment. I'm pleased to be corrected. I would highly doubt that an alien team could have 80 TRes in five minutes.
Fade and Onos eggs do indeed require Hive 2, otherwise you'd see at least 1 of those lifeforms in under 2 minutes into the game (oh god).
I have just tested this in a listen server (so no RT killing or Hive denying). I became Onos in 4:45 minutes by going fast Hive then having 4 Harvesters. It's scary how fast he can appear.
now imagine if you could evolve hive into a broodmother of specific type, with single ability as a mobile spawn point
My opinion is make prices equal for commander, and buff onos to stop it being slaughtered by these exosuits.
My opinion is make prices equal for commander, and buff onos to stop it being slaughtered by these exosuits.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm still not sure why the commander can even evolve a lifeform. What happened to all that high-falutin talk of PRes/TRes design goals?
Dunno. It makes sense late game, as it prevents ARC spam and whip spam in favour of high evolutions.
However it made more sense when the commander still had pres, and so handing out evolutions was just a way of using his spare pres.
Again, I'm unfamiliar with exactly how resource work in NS2, but I'm assuming that Tres increases much more rapidly than Pres, and so I can see how it would allow the Khamm to purchase more higher level lifeforms faster than he/she previously could. Prior to 217, it didnt seem very common for the Khamm to purchase eggs until somewhere around the 10-15 minute mark, and even then very infrequently. That they previously cost Pres explains why that is, and I think its a logical shift to make the Khamm spend Tres on lifeforms for the team (though, I'm not so sure then why it is the Khamm can no longer earn Pres, as he cant spend it on anything anyway).
At any rate, it might be reasonable to suggest a change to the rate at which Tres is earned on the alien side, and simply adjust the cost of structures accordingly.
Then again, this change seems to be a reasonable step towards balancing the cost of higher lifeforms on the alien side late game (and the loss of those spent resouces when they die) with the ease with which the marines can purchase and reuse their weapons.
They evolved to suit the game. Are you against that? Or are you looking for a "you were right"?
On topic, 40 res for an Onos egg may be too low. Either way, differing prices for comm and player is strange, I think it should return to 75 for both.
Also, the early game Onos is a risky strat... Khammed a game earlier today where marines came in and shot all the eggs in our main hive, including the Onos egg. :'( That 40 res in addition to the losses from rushing a fast 2nd hive mean you won't be expanding much or getting upgrades.
Yes it is a new and strong strategy, but its a very risky one and if it fails the alien team is set back massively.
so tl;dr imo the strat is probably fine, it is too early to tell definitively if it's OP. There may be some cheese strats like 5min onos + 5 gorges to back him up tho, not sure on that stuff yet :P
Perhaps the price of some things needs to be increased? ..or have onos / exo only be droppable on 3 hive/cc.
Perhaps the price of some things needs to be increased? ..or have onos / exo only be droppable on 3 hive/cc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But Rant, you have to ask yourself... how did the aliens manage to get that res flow to allow for such play?
I think the Tres eggs are too inexpensive: the marine items get a 10 res discount when dropped by the comm, perhaps the life form eggs get the same 10 res discount when dropped by the khamm (except of course that would make gorge eggs free :)
I'm not really sure I see a problem there. Armor 1 isn't hard to research.
AA, Mines, and Shotguns are clearly more important. ¬_¬
w3 is more important
Yeah, 5 minute onos took me and my team by surprise, and it was given to a really good player as well. To be honest, we were only holding topo and west skylights, trying to get a push into obs deck. The aliens had total map control and their teamplay was excellent.
Not sure if it's unbalanced yet because the next game we used the same strat and I got the onos, and I am terrible at onos. Tried to take double but the long hallways and dead gorge were my undoing.
And if by some miracle you're able to even get a second hive up against good marines without celerity; I highly doubt that onos will win in any circumstance.
Marines can equally push for an exo rush just as fast.
I have seen that when a alien khamm is in a *comfortable enough* position to start dropping pre evolved eggs he typically has multiple hives anyhow.
This would preserve the lifeforms coming out when intended for the most part, too, even if they tried to "cheese", while still allowing for the strategy to exist, since fades and lerks can still be plenty effective.
(the strategy of leaning on pre evolved eggs)
A very valid concern though.. IF you are indeed getting teams of Oni at 5 minutes..
I was being a little silly.
In NS1 the Arms Lab race was serious business. You needed A1 to stop Parasite+2bite kills, and Weapons 2 + Shotties to handle most Fades.
In NS2 it sorta depends. If you want effective Exos, you need at least A2. But weapons 2 or 3 is a huge multiplier on damage, especially if the team is equipped with Shotties and GLs. It also helps the Exo damage, but considering they already mow down most Skulks it's less important than not dying and wasting 50 res on a paper Exo. If you go JPs though Weapon upgrades are more crucial to maximize the weapons they're carrying.
Alternatively, get W3 so Welders obliterate Cysts faster. Clearly best reason ever. =]
You're getting a team of gorges.
Shotguns 1shot vanilla skulks. Lv2(Maybe lv3) shotguns oneshot cara skulk...
still, i think they should consider lowering the hide-armor a bit. currently, it reduces every bullet by 6 damage, so you deal only 4 damage per LMG shot without any weapon upgrades which seems quite extreme. so you need 350 bullets (450 against carapace) to bring it down, this does not include the default regeneration or gorges.
shotgun probably works better but still, every single bullet of the burst is reduced by the hide armor: 13 point blank shots with maximum damage are needed, 17 against carapace.
so my point is: reducing the hide armor by 1 point would only require you 280 (360 vs carapace) bullets with the rifle making things less extreme with this tactic.