Gorges, Sentries and Exos
Blasphemy
Join Date: 2008-05-02 Member: 64201Members, NS2 Playtester, Subnautica Playtester
Join Date: 2008-05-02 Member: 64201Members, NS2 Playtester, Subnautica Playtester
<div class="IPBDescription">Strategies, problems and solutions.</div>So after coming fresh out of a couple matches on Marines, there are a couple problems I have found with the game right now. I'll start off with the sentry, move to the exosuit, and then finish with the gorge. As usual with these threads, these ideas are open to discussion. Anyone else can voice their opinions and problems with whatever I mention. So long as they are thoughtful and have basis. So "you're a noob" or "only pro players do this or that" speak is not welcome.
<b><u>Sentries</u></b>: They aren't worth the money they are printed on.
Plenty of times in games I would as a commander place a sentry overlooking a long hallway or an entrance. Or sometimes I would place a sentry triangle where each one would cover the other in order to ensure maximum area of denial. But when I return to check up on them, some fade or skulk would be jumping around inside the fire zone being completely ignored by the sentries, and would be killing any unfortunate marine that happened to be there.
It got me curious as because it would appear as though they don't even bother to shoot the alien, or sometimes it would shoot any alien it sees, but not lock on. Or other times when I am an alien, the sentries would work perfectly fine. So I opened up a private lan server and did a couple tests.
As it turns out, I am right about the sentries ignoring aliens, but only partially. By placing a lone sentry covering an open space and running across its fire zone as an alien with darwinmode on, I have determined that some aliens are completely ignored. Here are some details.
<u>Skulk and Onos</u> - Will engage. Will track movement. Will maintain fire.
<u>Gorge and Fade</u> - Shoots initially and then ignores.
<u>Lerk</u> - Shoots initally and then ignores if walking. If flying across the fire zone the sentry will engage properly.
<b><u>Exosuit and Bilebombs</u></b>
Since this has happened a couple of times I'll lay it out plain and simple. It takes one Gorge to do what 4 double-gunned Exosuits can not. And that is to siege an enemy base quickly and effectively. It could take up to 5-10 minutes for a group of exosuits to get to a hive depending on the breaks, while it takes around 4-6 seconds for a gorge to get in the base, and another 16 seconds to knock down a power node if it has adrenaline and bile bomb.
A couple factors need to be taken into account here. One is that the exosuits are practically unstoppable in their advance while a gorge has a small window. The other is that the lack of sentries facilitates an opportunity for the gorge to just stroll in.
I understand there is a need for sentries to not be able to replace a marine in combat, but as it stands they are practically useless. They are too unreliable for their price and I could as a commander trade 4 sentries (40 res) to personally buy an exosuit for a marine which would have 10x more usefulness. If those sentries had actually shot the gorge, there is no way he would have been able to get to the power node without having to deal with the sentry first. That little bit of time of the gorge killing the sentry would be enough for a marine to hurry back to base and protect it, and spare the commander a beacon.
<b><u>Summary</u></b>
<b>Sentries</b> - Need to be fixed. They are too unreliable and will not shoot half the time.
<b>Exosuits</b> - They are gorgeous, but I would appreciate if they did a bit more damage to structures. Whip forests can be a major pain because they take so long to kill as an exo, and cannot be hit with a grenade launcher.
<b>Bile Bomb</b> - Too easily spammed with adrenaline. I would like to see a higher energy cost for it. I wouldn't even mind if the potency of it was increased a bit to compensate. I believe a bile bomb should be something strategically and thoughtfully dropped. Not something you can just spam.
Of course these are purely my ideas. If you guys have any other problems with what I listed above, don't be afraid to voice them. Just be sure to provide sufficient reasoning for me to understand what you mean.
<b><u>Sentries</u></b>: They aren't worth the money they are printed on.
Plenty of times in games I would as a commander place a sentry overlooking a long hallway or an entrance. Or sometimes I would place a sentry triangle where each one would cover the other in order to ensure maximum area of denial. But when I return to check up on them, some fade or skulk would be jumping around inside the fire zone being completely ignored by the sentries, and would be killing any unfortunate marine that happened to be there.
It got me curious as because it would appear as though they don't even bother to shoot the alien, or sometimes it would shoot any alien it sees, but not lock on. Or other times when I am an alien, the sentries would work perfectly fine. So I opened up a private lan server and did a couple tests.
As it turns out, I am right about the sentries ignoring aliens, but only partially. By placing a lone sentry covering an open space and running across its fire zone as an alien with darwinmode on, I have determined that some aliens are completely ignored. Here are some details.
<u>Skulk and Onos</u> - Will engage. Will track movement. Will maintain fire.
<u>Gorge and Fade</u> - Shoots initially and then ignores.
<u>Lerk</u> - Shoots initally and then ignores if walking. If flying across the fire zone the sentry will engage properly.
<b><u>Exosuit and Bilebombs</u></b>
Since this has happened a couple of times I'll lay it out plain and simple. It takes one Gorge to do what 4 double-gunned Exosuits can not. And that is to siege an enemy base quickly and effectively. It could take up to 5-10 minutes for a group of exosuits to get to a hive depending on the breaks, while it takes around 4-6 seconds for a gorge to get in the base, and another 16 seconds to knock down a power node if it has adrenaline and bile bomb.
A couple factors need to be taken into account here. One is that the exosuits are practically unstoppable in their advance while a gorge has a small window. The other is that the lack of sentries facilitates an opportunity for the gorge to just stroll in.
I understand there is a need for sentries to not be able to replace a marine in combat, but as it stands they are practically useless. They are too unreliable for their price and I could as a commander trade 4 sentries (40 res) to personally buy an exosuit for a marine which would have 10x more usefulness. If those sentries had actually shot the gorge, there is no way he would have been able to get to the power node without having to deal with the sentry first. That little bit of time of the gorge killing the sentry would be enough for a marine to hurry back to base and protect it, and spare the commander a beacon.
<b><u>Summary</u></b>
<b>Sentries</b> - Need to be fixed. They are too unreliable and will not shoot half the time.
<b>Exosuits</b> - They are gorgeous, but I would appreciate if they did a bit more damage to structures. Whip forests can be a major pain because they take so long to kill as an exo, and cannot be hit with a grenade launcher.
<b>Bile Bomb</b> - Too easily spammed with adrenaline. I would like to see a higher energy cost for it. I wouldn't even mind if the potency of it was increased a bit to compensate. I believe a bile bomb should be something strategically and thoughtfully dropped. Not something you can just spam.
Of course these are purely my ideas. If you guys have any other problems with what I listed above, don't be afraid to voice them. Just be sure to provide sufficient reasoning for me to understand what you mean.
Comments
If sentries are ineffective in that scenario I consider that a victory. We just have to find a way to make them useful in some other case.
If ten sentries (115 tres) can't stop three Skulks, then no, that is a problem. Ten Hydras would screw three Marines pretty hard.
Edit: My suggestion is to allow Marines to purchase Sentries from an Advanced Armory like mines. Limit them to one per Marine if needed.
Once Sentries have the targeting issues worked out, a Marine could use the Sentry to cover himself while he repairs/builds junk or some such thing. Also, buff Sentry damage to medium, like Hydras.
Using a cheap and spammable approach will just make servers cry as the tickrates fall.
A gorge is a very weak and easy target, crying about his bilebomb is just...idk wrong.
i mean why you don't say anything about jetpacks? they only cost 10 res and marines can invade every hive in like a few seconds, no aliens can defend that well.
but a bilebomb by a little slow target like a gorge...
<!--quoteo(post=1973629:date=Sep 7 2012, 08:42 PM:name=Blasphemy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blasphemy @ Sep 7 2012, 08:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1973629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Sentries</b> - Need to be fixed. They are too unreliable and will not shoot half the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sentrys are like hydras, for cover and small light enemys, not to kill a onos...they shoot not the half time? uhm, everytime if im skulk and try to attack them, they shoot me to half health before im behind one, with leap!
same with hydras, a marine can kill them if they are careful.
<!--quoteo(post=1973629:date=Sep 7 2012, 08:42 PM:name=Blasphemy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blasphemy @ Sep 7 2012, 08:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1973629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Exosuits</b> - They are gorgeous, but I would appreciate if they did a bit more damage to structures. Whip forests can be a major pain because they take so long to kill as an exo, and cannot be hit with a grenade launcher.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even more damage? there not powerfull enough, seriously?
Whips? ehm...shoot cysts and whips don't attack you anymore, thats my tactic always, whats the matter?
Also they CAN hit by a grenade launcher, just move a bit far away, sometimes you just have to play like billiard you know "to cushion the ball" ;)
I realy hope the UW team don't listen TOOO much to the people who just complaining, not specialy you blasphemy, but some people realy don't know the whole gameplay but still nag about it.
I mean, i understand the balance problem, but the exo is just fresh in the game and the other features such as primalscream, railgun and on just have to come in, then the balance again, change much.
same with hydras, a marine can kill them if they are careful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Throw another look at the opening post
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Skulk</b> and Onos - Will engage. Will track movement. Will maintain fire.
Gorge and Fade - Shoots initially and then ignores.
Lerk - Shoots initally and then ignores if walking. If flying across the fire zone the sentry will engage properly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
;)
;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, yeah, i miss that, i edit my comment, could get lost by that.
But the other points are true :P
<!--quoteo(post=1973694:date=Sep 7 2012, 11:15 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Sep 7 2012, 11:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1973694"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I get the impression the OP only plays marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats exactly what in my mind was, i think a lot of people do that and think aliens are stronger.
But balance problems are a thing of a beta.
i realy wonder how the new weapons will be, such as railgun and on.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Skulk and Onos - Will engage. Will track movement. Will maintain fire.
Gorge and Fade - Shoots initially and then ignores.
Lerk - Shoots initally and then ignores if walking. If flying across the fire zone the sentry will engage properly.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Gorge and Fade - Shoots initially and then ignores.
Lerk - Shoots initally and then ignores if walking. If flying across the fire zone the sentry will engage properly.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
chill boy, and read the 4th comment above you...
I test it right now, the sentry shoot all time, till the gorge died...
maybe he missed the "range" of a sentry? im sure he don't know sentrys have range:
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->kSentryEngagementDistance = 2<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Sentry" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Sentry</a>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->scan in a 160 degrees arc in front of it; any Kharaa lifeforms and structures that enter the Sentry's range<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sentries do light damage.
Incidentally, Mines also do light damage. That's why Fades can walk over four of them and be 'kay.
But lerks and fades it barely even tries to shoot. I stood still, right in front of a sentry as a lerk, and it <i>maybe</i> fired 1 bullet at me every couple of seconds. Once you take off, it will try to shoot at you a little bit, but not much.
Ok, I just found something <u>really</u> messed up.
<b>Fades scare sentries</b>
When a fade is looking at a sentry, the sentry will not fire. But if the fade looks away from the sentry, suddenly the sentry will start firing! Fade looks back towards the sentry, and the sentry stop shooting.
WTF!?!?
DISCLAIMER: This was tested on a local server with cheats enabled and darwinmode on. Results may not be typical. Consult your doctor before attempting to scare sentries as a fade.
Update: Tested on live server without cheats. Findings hold true.<u> <b>Fades scare sentries, and sentries don't shoot at walking lerks!</b></u> Sentries are not only weak, their AI is FUBAR. I should add that even for the lifeforms it does track correctly, it often only fires intermittently.
WELL THERE'S YER PROBLEM!
Marines need some AI upgrades *cough*<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->bugfixes<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->*cough* for these sentries.
<b>Fades scare sentries</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow thats messed up and I imagine it will be a ballache to figure out why.
Sentry AI needs to be fixed before people start talking about buffing them any other way. I find them suitably scary when I am a skulk, so clearly AI just needs fixing so they are a threat to other lifeforms.
<b><u>Sentries</u></b>: They aren't worth the money they are printed on.
Plenty of times in games I would as a commander place a sentry overlooking a long hallway or an entrance. Or sometimes I would place a sentry triangle where each one would cover the other in order to ensure maximum area of denial. But when I return to check up on them, some fade or skulk would be jumping around inside the fire zone being completely ignored by the sentries, and would be killing any unfortunate marine that happened to be there.
It got me curious as because it would appear as though they don't even bother to shoot the alien, or sometimes it would shoot any alien it sees, but not lock on. Or other times when I am an alien, the sentries would work perfectly fine. So I opened up a private lan server and did a couple tests.
As it turns out, I am right about the sentries ignoring aliens, but only partially. By placing a lone sentry covering an open space and running across its fire zone as an alien with darwinmode on, I have determined that some aliens are completely ignored. Here are some details.
<u>Skulk and Onos</u> - Will engage. Will track movement. Will maintain fire.
<u>Gorge and Fade</u> - Shoots initially and then ignores.
<u>Lerk</u> - Shoots initally and then ignores if walking. If flying across the fire zone the sentry will engage properly.
<b><u>Exosuit and Bilebombs</u></b>
Since this has happened a couple of times I'll lay it out plain and simple. It takes one Gorge to do what 4 double-gunned Exosuits can not. And that is to siege an enemy base quickly and effectively. It could take up to 5-10 minutes for a group of exosuits to get to a hive depending on the breaks, while it takes around 4-6 seconds for a gorge to get in the base, and another 16 seconds to knock down a power node if it has adrenaline and bile bomb.
A couple factors need to be taken into account here. One is that the exosuits are practically unstoppable in their advance while a gorge has a small window. The other is that the lack of sentries facilitates an opportunity for the gorge to just stroll in.
I understand there is a need for sentries to not be able to replace a marine in combat, but as it stands they are practically useless. They are too unreliable for their price and I could as a commander trade 4 sentries (40 res) to personally buy an exosuit for a marine which would have 10x more usefulness. If those sentries had actually shot the gorge, there is no way he would have been able to get to the power node without having to deal with the sentry first. That little bit of time of the gorge killing the sentry would be enough for a marine to hurry back to base and protect it, and spare the commander a beacon.
<b><u>Summary</u></b>
<b>Sentries</b> - Need to be fixed. They are too unreliable and will not shoot half the time.
<b>Exosuits</b> - They are gorgeous, but I would appreciate if they did a bit more damage to structures. Whip forests can be a major pain because they take so long to kill as an exo, and cannot be hit with a grenade launcher.
<b>Bile Bomb</b> - Too easily spammed with adrenaline. I would like to see a higher energy cost for it. I wouldn't even mind if the potency of it was increased a bit to compensate. I believe a bile bomb should be something strategically and thoughtfully dropped. Not something you can just spam.
Of course these are purely my ideas. If you guys have any other problems with what I listed above, don't be afraid to voice them. Just be sure to provide sufficient reasoning for me to understand what you mean.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sentries are fine. They are good when a marine is there defending them.
Exos are too strong already. Again if you have teammates you win.
Bile Bomb is the only long term use for the gorge.
If anything i would make both types of exos cost 75.
When a fade is looking at a sentry, the sentry will not fire. But if the fade looks away from the sentry, suddenly the sentry will start firing! Fade looks back towards the sentry, and the sentry stop shooting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*insert slenderman-related comment here*
XD
i mean why you don't say anything about jetpacks? they only cost 10 res and marines can invade every hive in like a few seconds, no aliens can defend that well.
but a bilebomb by a little slow target like a gorge...
Even more damage? there not powerfull enough, seriously?
Whips? ehm...shoot cysts and whips don't attack you anymore, thats my tactic always, whats the matter?
Also they CAN hit by a grenade launcher, just move a bit far away, sometimes you just have to play like billiard you know "to cushion the ball" ;)
I realy hope the UW team don't listen TOOO much to the people who just complaining, not specialy you blasphemy, but some people realy don't know the whole gameplay but still nag about it.
I mean, i understand the balance problem, but the exo is just fresh in the game and the other features such as primalscream, railgun and on just have to come in, then the balance again, change much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hahah well I do actually have problems with Jetpacks. I like to call them the perpetual flight machines. But that is for another thread.
While the gorge is a weak and easy target. I don't believe one gorge should be strong enough to crack an entire base. Especially to knock down a power node in 16 seconds. Bile bomb as it is just doesn't really make much sense. I mean. One bomb sack getting regurgitated across the map is one thing. But an entire artillery bombardment is another. Where does he store all of those bombs? Having a one shot energy buster means that the gorge will have to really make sure he lands it. If it does hit then it could do massive damage.
Besides, an Onos should be the one doing that kind of base cracking thing anyways. I would understand a commander having to beacon everyone to a secondary to deal with an Onos, but a $10 pup like a gorge shouldn't be more than a ranged support. Base cracking just isn't in its job description.
What I hope for with threads like these is to raise discussion about stuff like the exosuit. Maybe the exosuit is too weak, maybe it is too strong. One could argue that it does way too much damage too quickly as sometimes it feels as though exosuit would one-hit kill skulks. Meanwhile, killing cysts is a legit strategy, but you do have to wait for the infestation to recede before the whips unroot. It can also prove difficult if a shade is hiding the cyst and you do not know where it is.
Maybe when the 3D infestation comes in, the flamethrower could burn away and shrink the infestation it touches. And you could "paint" away the infestation as you cross the room. That would definitely solve the recession speed issue.
As with the grenade launcher, sometimes I wonder if there should even be a harder counter to it than whips. Sure it will return one grenade (maybe even that has changed if you guys can actually hit it), but most of the time you can just overload it with grenades and it can't handle the sheer number.
Was primal scream going to go in for 1.0? I know for sure that railgun wasn't going to be. Either way that shouldn't make it a bad thing to discuss the current balance status of the game. I mean, although the exos could be balanced with primal scream in mind, it also needs to be balanced for if primal scream were to not be researched by the Aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=nSidia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nSidia)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bile Bomb is the only long term use for the gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am not suggesting they remove bile bomb for gorge if that is what you're getting at. I am just suggesting they tune it so the gorge (10 res) isn't as strong as the onos (75 res).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sentries.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm glad to know that these sentry problems are not merely on my side, although it is kind of bittersweet because I would rather the problems not exist to begin with. Although the silver lining is now that we know there is a problem, we are already on track to getting it fixed. So here is hoping for a fast and proper fix to sentry targeting so they have a proper use again.
Also to mention the max distance. I wonder if UWE could inspire some of how TF2 does their sentries. The part I am talking about is when you are about to build your sentry, you get the blueprint, the arc that it patrols, but you also have a large massive sphere showing the maximum range of the sentry. Maybe in NS2, commanders could have something similar to the 3D sphere. I realize they do have that line that indicates maximum distance, but that could be very difficult to determine maximum range if it is at the top or bottom of a ramp.
The fact that a phase gate removes the need to walk out of your base does not also mean it removes the need for you to defend it. Too many coms these days forget that. Marines lose to Gorge-bombing when they become so tunnel-visioned on attacking aliens they can't even bother to secure the area around their own base, and in my opinion, that's an instance they deserve to lose in.
Also, if I could have marines just stay in base and defend. I would probably have it done all match. Most of the time in public matches, they just want to go out there and find a scrap rather than wait for one to come to them.
My problem isn't gorges sniping out my bases. I am actually very disciplined in making sure that doesn't happen. My problem is that I have to beacon the entire team, usually resulting in a lack of support for the exosuits, just to deal with that lone gorge in order for him to not do so. I understand that a marine defending would be the best solution and sentries would probably help stave off the gorge, but the problem still persists. An unchecked lone gorge can do far too much far too quickly for how much he costs.
Sentries also take a rather long time to deploy for their often short lives.
Aliens have more than enough tools to nullify Sentries already, but all of them are only accessible with a second/third Hive (Leap, Bile Bomb, Spores, Blink, Stomp).
Bile Bombs have to be "spammed" to be effective, ever since it was changed from an instant damage to damage-over-time attack.
Since this has happened a couple of times I'll lay it out plain and simple. It takes one Gorge to do what 4 double-gunned Exosuits can not. And that is to siege an enemy base quickly and effectively. It could take up to 5-10 minutes for a group of exosuits to get to a hive depending on the breaks, while it takes around 4-6 seconds for a gorge to get in the base, and another 16 seconds to knock down a power node if it has adrenaline and bile bomb.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who are the 4 idiots in exo suits that are taking 5-10 minutes to get into a hive and kill it?
I have seen 2 exo's do it in less than 3 min...bah.
Seriosuly exo's are not invulnerability suits though they are not far from it in current gameplay.
I have seen 2 exo's do it in less than 3 min...bah.
Seriosuly exo's are not invulnerability suits though they are not far from it in current gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funnily enough, I have been able to keep a group of around 3-4 exosuits away as a gorge by using adren. bile bomb spam accompanied by a fade going and stirring up trouble. The reason it is so hard for the Exosuit to siege a hive is because the alien team is aware of its presence long before it arrives. It is slow, large and loud and therefore very difficult to sneak in. A gorge on the other hand can slide in and spam bile. It is a lot quieter and if a gorge is found out with carapace (they almost always have carapace) it takes ~1 whole rifle magazine to kill him. That could give him plenty of time to either get away to the safety of friends, or if he spams jump, to possibly still be able to take out the node.
Which is why I've suggested that Sentries should be reworked to be like Mines (as a deployable). Let Marines buy them for 20~ res at an advanced armory, and can only carry one at a time. That way they can toss out a bit of extra fire power in a pinch if needed, and they can position them more easily than a Comm can.
Deployable/Re-deployable sentries sounds like a really cool idea actually. I would totally buy a portable sentry instead of a shotgun.
Please can we just try something more radical, because I think sentry spam will be a real problem.
Too weak and they have to be cheap = spam.
Too strong and they have to be expensive = people complain they are too powerful and it enforces sentry spam as a way of locking down an area.
We have tried both methods in many different forms, they don't work. None of these methods scale with the map.
I think you should gain a sentry gun for every tech point you take or every 2/3 RTs you take. Then you can only place it outside of another sentrys range (similar to shade type range or larger) and they have a low FOV (25 - 35 degrees) but can mow down anything within its sight (barring onos).
Then you just have a load of vents to get behind them, and you've given them a job of re-routing alien traffic. That would be their biggest advantage.
You can even have specific positions they can only be placed, so they can be balanced this way. At the end of long corridors for example.
-----
If sentrys don't work, have alternatives. Perhaps mines that electrify one building a pop. Or add in the ability to place 'sonic lights' that effect aliens somehow?
Also, does welding doors even work still?
It does not. Can't weld vents either.