I love 4 TP maps like veil, simply because they make for much more intense gameplay. The only downside is that a 1 - 3 or 3 - 1 tech point situation for either side means the game won't last much longer, since it's impossible to hold out on just 1 TP mid or late game. (Which imo is an issue with the TP design more than anything else, comebacks should always be possible to some extent... although at least they somewhat addressed this by not taking away upgrades from existing players when the second CC or hive goes down)
In NS 1 marines could play on just 1 TP and aliens had to expand, I much preferred that dynamic over both sides having to expand.
<!--quoteo(post=1978943:date=Sep 17 2012, 03:38 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Sep 17 2012, 03:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978943"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS 1 marines could play on just 1 TP and aliens had to expand, I much preferred that dynamic over both sides having to expand.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I disagree. Forcing marines to expand in the mid game adds a huge element of strategy to the game. There will be new balance issues with this obviously and over time the gameplay will shift, but all in all, its a great change.
What is this huge element of strategy, and why exactly is it better than simply denying aliens tech points like in NS 1? To me, the whole 2nd CC business for jetpacks and exos feels arbitrary, simply because aliens were inherently designed as the more aggressive and expansionist faction where as marines have always been the slower paced defensive one. NS 2 is in fact trying to equalise them in this regard, and it just doesn't feel right. (NS2 is becoming less asymmetric by the minute it seems)
What's even worse is that they've even wrecked the marine's defensive capabilities by gimping sentries so much. (Aliens have been somewhat hindered in this as well...) It's as if UWE doesn't want any defensive play to occur whatsoever and it's completely marginalising the RTS side of things as far as I'm concerned
Or just get rid of defensive structures all together then, because now it's like they're laughing in our faces with how they're keeping these ridiculous sentries in the game. Defensive structures are an important part of any RTS and I dare say it's also one of the things that made NS1 gameplay so dynamic and great. Both sides have plenty of ways to deal with structures, and there's plenty of ways to balance powerful 'defensive' structures without completely rendering them useless. (Or allowing them to be spammed)
Instead of at least trying to strike this balance however, it seems like UWE is just taking the easy way out by nullifying their impact on the game entirely. I also don't really agree hydras and clogs are troublesome to deal with, at least the hydras cost p.res now, so having to fight them is way more manageable than it was before (when gorges would instantly replace a killed hydra)
<!--quoteo(post=1979071:date=Sep 17 2012, 11:43 AM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Sep 17 2012, 11:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979071"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Then they should do something about Aliens,</b> because I have to hack my way through a Whip/Hydra/Clog forest every couple of minutes past mid-game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could do something about it by not letting aliens have +5 resource nodes the entire game. The only time an alien com is making whips/clog forests is when the game has already been won. Last time I checked, whips don't have ranged attacks either so they're really not that hard to kill either.
<!--quoteo(post=1979071:date=Sep 17 2012, 09:43 AM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Sep 17 2012, 09:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979071"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then they should do something about Aliens, because I have to hack my way through a Whip/Hydra/Clog forest every couple of minutes past mid-game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally I preferred it when hydras died when a player stopped going gorge, prevents the spam. Hydras are fairly harmless without a gorge anyway.
Whips.. I think of them as a means of slowing down marines. Marines have to stop and kill them first. Same with sentries for aliens - they were good at slowing down a random rush. Then they changed sentries for some reason (I preferred the old defensive sentry).
Imo 4 tech points is fine as while it isn't even at any one point in the game overall it kind of balances out, just like the different races in any good RTS. They have strong times in the game and weak times in the game.
From what I see games tend to go like this:
Early Game - Starts off 1 base each. Bit of a skirmish early on, aliens grab the second hive. Marines try to pressure to delay that second hive while maintaining an RT lead -> this leads to an upgrade lead.
EITHER: Marines successfully delay the second hive long enough that standard upgrades/map control let them pressure the first hive (Still 1-1) OR: Aliens defend the second hive enough to get that up and start trying to get the critical second hive tech. (1.5-1 in favour of aliens)
Mid Game - IF Marines delayed the second hive, they push into the first, aliens scramble trying to push the marines back so they can secure the second hive while keeping the marines from securing a second TP. The marines if they cannot push and win quickly lock down a second TP. (2-1 in favour of marines, significant advantage) IF Aliens defended the second hive enough to get some second hive tech, they start pushing the marines back with the tier 2 tech. (2-1 in favour of aliens, slight advantage).
Late Game - Marines try to either remove the second hive (and so the tech and map control) or fight over the final TP. (Try to reset to 1-1, or make it 2-2) Aliens make sure to deny the final TP to marines, while trying to pressure the marines back. (Ensure 2-1 lead).
There is nothing saying that having equal Tech Points should mean equal tech amounts. Most of the game is 'unbalanced' in terms of TPs, and maybe you could argue 'unbalanced' in terms of tech but it is a passing phase in the game and the pendulum can just as easily swing back. The problem with this however is the 5TP maps require different balancing to the 4TP ones, as with the 5TP it tends to end up in a 2-2 with scrapping over a 5th that doesn't give such a huge advantage other than denying the map control.
I agree, but I don't like this behavior. In your examples, the game is decided mostly with the beginning of the mid game. You can tell what team has the lead and it is very unlikely that this will change. I don't say it isn't possible to have a comeback at this point. But it is unlikely and this leads to boring predictable games in the long run.
I strongly agree that NS has a big timing element to it, and as time goes by the stronger teams will be exploiting those timings, and the trickle down effect will permeate the public scene inevitably. Strategies will undoubtedly be built around hiding the timing and then revealing it when the other team is too late on a counter. Although, the intention of this thread to display the inherent lack of full tiered fighting that can occur on a 4TP unless, the tech is obtained (marines get the dual miniguns/jps etc), the TP is lost to the other team and the research is then done. I do not think this is a viable use case as it will happen seldom and the team hitting their timing of tech will usually finish the game. There is also a long turn around time to reclaim the TP to regain the tech abilities.
This being said, there is a huge skill factor to NS which changes the entire strategic dynamic. A great player can render even the soundest strategy moot. Which in itself is very exciting, but also quite a daunting thought to the commanders (like myself) hellbent on making strategic decisions.
I really think that the "phasing" you mentioned is great from a timing point of view, but can be enhanced/diminished based on teamplay or individual skill. Which is the nature of the beast.
Comments
In NS 1 marines could play on just 1 TP and aliens had to expand, I much preferred that dynamic over both sides having to expand.
I disagree. Forcing marines to expand in the mid game adds a huge element of strategy to the game. There will be new balance issues with this obviously and over time the gameplay will shift, but all in all, its a great change.
What's even worse is that they've even wrecked the marine's defensive capabilities by gimping sentries so much. (Aliens have been somewhat hindered in this as well...) It's as if UWE doesn't want any defensive play to occur whatsoever and it's completely marginalising the RTS side of things as far as I'm concerned
They don't. They want PvP, with structural defenses playing very little influence.
Then they should do something about Aliens, because I have to hack my way through a Whip/Hydra/Clog forest every couple of minutes past mid-game.
Instead of at least trying to strike this balance however, it seems like UWE is just taking the easy way out by nullifying their impact on the game entirely. I also don't really agree hydras and clogs are troublesome to deal with, at least the hydras cost p.res now, so having to fight them is way more manageable than it was before (when gorges would instantly replace a killed hydra)
You could do something about it by not letting aliens have +5 resource nodes the entire game. The only time an alien com is making whips/clog forests is when the game has already been won. Last time I checked, whips don't have ranged attacks either so they're really not that hard to kill either.
Personally I preferred it when hydras died when a player stopped going gorge, prevents the spam. Hydras are fairly harmless without a gorge anyway.
Whips.. I think of them as a means of slowing down marines. Marines have to stop and kill them first. Same with sentries for aliens - they were good at slowing down a random rush. Then they changed sentries for some reason (I preferred the old defensive sentry).
From what I see games tend to go like this:
Early Game -
Starts off 1 base each.
Bit of a skirmish early on, aliens grab the second hive.
Marines try to pressure to delay that second hive while maintaining an RT lead -> this leads to an upgrade lead.
EITHER: Marines successfully delay the second hive long enough that standard upgrades/map control let them pressure the first hive (Still 1-1)
OR: Aliens defend the second hive enough to get that up and start trying to get the critical second hive tech. (1.5-1 in favour of aliens)
Mid Game -
IF Marines delayed the second hive, they push into the first, aliens scramble trying to push the marines back so they can secure the second hive while keeping the marines from securing a second TP. The marines if they cannot push and win quickly lock down a second TP. (2-1 in favour of marines, significant advantage)
IF Aliens defended the second hive enough to get some second hive tech, they start pushing the marines back with the tier 2 tech. (2-1 in favour of aliens, slight advantage).
Late Game -
Marines try to either remove the second hive (and so the tech and map control) or fight over the final TP. (Try to reset to 1-1, or make it 2-2)
Aliens make sure to deny the final TP to marines, while trying to pressure the marines back. (Ensure 2-1 lead).
There is nothing saying that having equal Tech Points should mean equal tech amounts. Most of the game is 'unbalanced' in terms of TPs, and maybe you could argue 'unbalanced' in terms of tech but it is a passing phase in the game and the pendulum can just as easily swing back. The problem with this however is the 5TP maps require different balancing to the 4TP ones, as with the 5TP it tends to end up in a 2-2 with scrapping over a 5th that doesn't give such a huge advantage other than denying the map control.
This being said, there is a huge skill factor to NS which changes the entire strategic dynamic. A great player can render even the soundest strategy moot. Which in itself is very exciting, but also quite a daunting thought to the commanders (like myself) hellbent on making strategic decisions.
I really think that the "phasing" you mentioned is great from a timing point of view, but can be enhanced/diminished based on teamplay or individual skill. Which is the nature of the beast.