Robotics Factory
Raven_XI
Join Date: 2003-01-08 Member: 12032Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-01-08 Member: 12032Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Contribution Level</div>Like the original NS, NS2 is a great game. I have already spent countless hours on the beta and plan to have many many more when it is fully released. In my opinion though, something needs to be done about the Robotics Factory and its (lack of) contribution to the Marine Team. Many changes have been made since the days of overpowered Arc Trains and Turret Spams but honestly, now it is about as useful as an AFK marine player and as a Comm, I can never really justify building one in a match. As we approach release, we need to get it right.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>NS2</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Lets take a look at ARCs
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Cost</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
The first problem I see with the Robotics Factory is that the cost associated with building it and the advantages it gives you do not add up. For example, If you want to build 2 Arcs to take down a hive, that will cost you 15 (Factory) + 20 (Upgrade) + 40 (2x Arc) + ~15-20 (Scans) = 100 Resources. For that same amount of resources, I could have level 1 Weapons/Armour, an upgraded Armory, Grenade launchers + welders.
The major difference here? If my Arcs do not get the job done, I have ultimately LOST 100 resources and have nothing to show for it but a useless Robotics Factory and perhaps a MAC if it's still floating around and its basically GG. Scenario 2 however, Ive got upgrades and weapons that my team can continue to use.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Time</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
I just created my own server and timed myself building 2 Arcs, planting them in a hive and seeing how long it took to die. 4 minutes. That is 4 minutes with NO DISTRACTIONS. It means that the decision to Arc cannot be a quick, strategic reaction to what the aliens are doing, you have to premeditate it and just stick with it regardless of how the next 2-3 minutes of building your arsenal pans out.
Lets not forget that this was with no alien players present, meaning the final 1 minute it took to move to / take down the hive would be increased dramatically. Also I did not have to wait on resources because I had enough to build everything when I started.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Comparison to NS</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
So why did Sieges work so well in NS?
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Cost</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
The commander had full control over resources. You had the choice of Guns, Tech or Buildings. On an average game, you could most likely afford to peruse 2 at any particular time. This meant that if you had a marine near a hive, you had enough res handy to drop a turret factory and 2 sieges (and perhaps a phase) all the while you were able to maintain upgrades moving for your team. Should that attempt fail? You would recycle all and get at least some of your money back.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Time</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
I cant remember the time, but it would have been considerably less than 2-3 minutes to build enough stuff to siege down a hive. As it did not take long to set up, you could scan the hive and if it had too many OC's in there, it was strategically a better option which could be made on the spot to siege it from the safety of outside the hive room.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Other Points to Consider<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
1) Maps in NS2 don't allow for ARCs to be able to shoot hives down from safer locations and basically have to be moved into the hive, giving them a very low success rate.
2) The time spent trying to take down a hive with arcs, even if successful can result in a lose for marines as the entire rest of them map has been taken over by the alien commander. The marines now have no upgrades, no res and are potentially worse off from where they started. Should the arcs rush succeed but then be destroyed after, the Khamm can quickly throw the hive back up if he hasn't already grown one somewhere else.
3) You generally cannot afford to build a phase gate to the location where the arcs are, meaning you can only really successfully push close hive locations. I don't actually see this as a bad thing as I think it ads a certain degree of strategy as to why you may try to push for ARCs. But because they suck, its useless.
4) Marine LOS doesnt seem to work very well for targeting?
5) It is not worth building a forward Robotics Factory near the enemy hive to quicken the process.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Recommendations </b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
As I said, even if you succeed in taking down a hive currently, chances are you are in an even worse position because aliens took the rest of the map and you have no upgrades.
1)MAKE TECHING TO ARCS AND ARCS THEMSELVES CHEAPER, OR ALLOW THEM TO BE RECYCLED
2)MAKE ARCS FASTER TO TRAVEL + DEPLOY
"OP Raven! You have just made ARCs OP! We will once again see the ARC train in all its OP Glory!"
In my eyes I see a simple fix. Take a look at how the ARC fires... It absorbs in energy around it and then unleashes it on its target. Why not just make it, the more arcs that are in the area, the lower damage they actually do individually?
Lets take a look at a Logarithmic Graph for reference.
<img src="http://ocw.mit.edu/high-school/courses/guitar-building/lecture-notes/logarithmic-audio/log_graph.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
This will go towards fixing both the Cost and Time problems. Also, mappers need to be more specific in their design. For example, make a hive that cant be accessed as easy with JP have a room leading to it with the door weldable so you can as a team, weld the door shut and plant arcs on the outside. Obviously there would be other ways in the room, but it would have vents / other entrances but perhaps it would make it just that little bit harder for aliens to defend. Wouldn't that be a cool little strat?
Keep in mind I do not just play marines, I also play aliens and do not see Arcs as any sort of threat. For me, if both Alien + Marine commanders do not think Arcs are any good, they need to be changed.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>MACS</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
MACs need to have their speed upgrade taken away and have them travel at that speed by default. Make them weld/build stuff a touch faster but with the same logarithmicness as ARC damage I proposed. EMP is cool, make it so If an alien team uses inc cloud for example, I can move in a mac, EMP it and disable the structure for a period of time...
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Turrets</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Turrets Suck. Get rid of them, or make them better. They were fine in NS, why shouldn't they be able to hold off a position against skulks?
I got lazy near the end, hope you enjoyed my input. Now it would be great to hear yours.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>NS2</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Lets take a look at ARCs
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Cost</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
The first problem I see with the Robotics Factory is that the cost associated with building it and the advantages it gives you do not add up. For example, If you want to build 2 Arcs to take down a hive, that will cost you 15 (Factory) + 20 (Upgrade) + 40 (2x Arc) + ~15-20 (Scans) = 100 Resources. For that same amount of resources, I could have level 1 Weapons/Armour, an upgraded Armory, Grenade launchers + welders.
The major difference here? If my Arcs do not get the job done, I have ultimately LOST 100 resources and have nothing to show for it but a useless Robotics Factory and perhaps a MAC if it's still floating around and its basically GG. Scenario 2 however, Ive got upgrades and weapons that my team can continue to use.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Time</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
I just created my own server and timed myself building 2 Arcs, planting them in a hive and seeing how long it took to die. 4 minutes. That is 4 minutes with NO DISTRACTIONS. It means that the decision to Arc cannot be a quick, strategic reaction to what the aliens are doing, you have to premeditate it and just stick with it regardless of how the next 2-3 minutes of building your arsenal pans out.
Lets not forget that this was with no alien players present, meaning the final 1 minute it took to move to / take down the hive would be increased dramatically. Also I did not have to wait on resources because I had enough to build everything when I started.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Comparison to NS</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
So why did Sieges work so well in NS?
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Cost</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
The commander had full control over resources. You had the choice of Guns, Tech or Buildings. On an average game, you could most likely afford to peruse 2 at any particular time. This meant that if you had a marine near a hive, you had enough res handy to drop a turret factory and 2 sieges (and perhaps a phase) all the while you were able to maintain upgrades moving for your team. Should that attempt fail? You would recycle all and get at least some of your money back.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Time</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
I cant remember the time, but it would have been considerably less than 2-3 minutes to build enough stuff to siege down a hive. As it did not take long to set up, you could scan the hive and if it had too many OC's in there, it was strategically a better option which could be made on the spot to siege it from the safety of outside the hive room.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Other Points to Consider<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
1) Maps in NS2 don't allow for ARCs to be able to shoot hives down from safer locations and basically have to be moved into the hive, giving them a very low success rate.
2) The time spent trying to take down a hive with arcs, even if successful can result in a lose for marines as the entire rest of them map has been taken over by the alien commander. The marines now have no upgrades, no res and are potentially worse off from where they started. Should the arcs rush succeed but then be destroyed after, the Khamm can quickly throw the hive back up if he hasn't already grown one somewhere else.
3) You generally cannot afford to build a phase gate to the location where the arcs are, meaning you can only really successfully push close hive locations. I don't actually see this as a bad thing as I think it ads a certain degree of strategy as to why you may try to push for ARCs. But because they suck, its useless.
4) Marine LOS doesnt seem to work very well for targeting?
5) It is not worth building a forward Robotics Factory near the enemy hive to quicken the process.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Recommendations </b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
As I said, even if you succeed in taking down a hive currently, chances are you are in an even worse position because aliens took the rest of the map and you have no upgrades.
1)MAKE TECHING TO ARCS AND ARCS THEMSELVES CHEAPER, OR ALLOW THEM TO BE RECYCLED
2)MAKE ARCS FASTER TO TRAVEL + DEPLOY
"OP Raven! You have just made ARCs OP! We will once again see the ARC train in all its OP Glory!"
In my eyes I see a simple fix. Take a look at how the ARC fires... It absorbs in energy around it and then unleashes it on its target. Why not just make it, the more arcs that are in the area, the lower damage they actually do individually?
Lets take a look at a Logarithmic Graph for reference.
<img src="http://ocw.mit.edu/high-school/courses/guitar-building/lecture-notes/logarithmic-audio/log_graph.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
This will go towards fixing both the Cost and Time problems. Also, mappers need to be more specific in their design. For example, make a hive that cant be accessed as easy with JP have a room leading to it with the door weldable so you can as a team, weld the door shut and plant arcs on the outside. Obviously there would be other ways in the room, but it would have vents / other entrances but perhaps it would make it just that little bit harder for aliens to defend. Wouldn't that be a cool little strat?
Keep in mind I do not just play marines, I also play aliens and do not see Arcs as any sort of threat. For me, if both Alien + Marine commanders do not think Arcs are any good, they need to be changed.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>MACS</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
MACs need to have their speed upgrade taken away and have them travel at that speed by default. Make them weld/build stuff a touch faster but with the same logarithmicness as ARC damage I proposed. EMP is cool, make it so If an alien team uses inc cloud for example, I can move in a mac, EMP it and disable the structure for a period of time...
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Turrets</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Turrets Suck. Get rid of them, or make them better. They were fine in NS, why shouldn't they be able to hold off a position against skulks?
I got lazy near the end, hope you enjoyed my input. Now it would be great to hear yours.
Comments
completely agree, they should be able to hold their ground against the lowest alien life form... They were fine in NS1
Assigning a MAC to an EXO suit is especially helpful as the EXO may use the MAC as an added appendage (to build or weld on 'E" command).
Being able to deploy/unDeploy ARC's from the ground will (help to) ensure that the same level of cooperation is required by the marine team as it is with the Kharaa.
Essentially though, ARC's are a mobile defensive. l2seige;
Turret firing circle is now changable. If your turrets don't hold up its the commanders fault, not the turrets.
Solution? Bigger range, maybe double. Remove the ARC upgrade on a Robo Factory entirely; it's not doing a job that needs to be done. Reduce the damage to compensate for these. 1 gorge should be able to out-heal 1 ARC, or at least tie it if he has Adrenaline. Now you've got your ARCs being easier to deploy and defend for Marines, and harder to attack but less threatening for aliens.
As an added bonus, ARC strats provide a completely different change of pace from the old Marine/Alien standbys: Walk into hive and kill it / Attack whatever is undefended. Marines must start holding rooms without IPs and Beacons, and Kharaa feel the pressure to break or disrupt a specific marine target (or harass so many others that the marines are compelled to abandon their defense, then exploit that opening.)
Umm noo... its actualy the turrets fault, ever used turrets before? They dont track the slowest alien lifeform easily and do no damage, on the count of them being easily strafeable, also they are anti structure now. :/ and the fact you said this 2 days after the patch is inexcusable.
ARCs should be a viable option to kill a hive, if u protect them ... at this moment they're not, cause of the reasons you spoke from ...
thanks for creating this thread ;)
I really like this, don't know why it wasn't thought of sooner. Why not base the damage output of the ARC on its range from the target? Then they could be made weaker in terms of health and armour to offset the benefits of sieging from 1cm away.