<!--quoteo(post=1979363:date=Sep 17 2012, 09:09 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Sep 17 2012, 09:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979363"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For all the contention in this thread, it's worth noting that the top players' stats on ns2stats.org show a high percentage of shotgun use. Essentially, if you can get the timing and accuracy right, it's how marines win games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the other hand, Shotguns are the first and cheapest weapon that Marines get, is the only weapon besides the LMG that isn't gimmicky, and it trumps the LMG in that the Shotgun can deal with higher lifeforms while the LMG may as well be pelting them with marshmallows; which more or less nullifies the LMG's range advantage. Grenade Launchers have a few major disadvantages (Reload time, not being able to really shoot mid-reload like the Shotgun can, very dangerous to use it at close range, etc) and the Flamethrower is terribad, not to mention that both come later. I wouldn't really be surprised if in competitive matches, the only reason that the Advanced Armory goes up at all is to get a Proto Lab out there.
It's not a matter of the Shotgun being overwhelmingly good so much as Marines have nothing worthwhile to spend their pres on besides the Shotgun, Welder, Jetpack combo.
I think if the HMG returned, that would see an equal or higher use than the Shotgun...but UWE has said that the Exo is supposed to replace it (It doesn't)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shotguns [...] is the only weapon besides the LMG that isn't gimmicky<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point yep. A HMG, or just a second LMG (just a bit better and different) would balance the shotgun more.
I dont get how anyone can say the shotgun is overpowered when you have the dual minigun exo that can 14 bullet carapace fades..... It makes no sense to me that the HMG was removed because it was too good but then you basically add something that does more damage per bullet, and then make it so you can have 2? and no ammo limit?..........
TLDR shotgun balance needs to be off somewhat as its the best weapon vanilla marines can ever get. While i think shooting skulks with it should require quite a bit more skill, thats more an issue with skulk movement and possibly the spread, not the shotgun.
BiteyJoin Date: 2012-05-06Member: 151622Members, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester
<!--quoteo(post=1978605:date=Sep 16 2012, 01:03 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Sep 16 2012, 01:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978605"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do any of these charts take into account reload time?
A shotgun can put out 8 shots (1360dmg@w0) in ~15 seconds counting its reload time. This is ~91dps. An LMG can put out 1 mag (500dmg@w0) in ~5 seconds counting its reload time. This is ~100 dps.
Perhaps there is more to consider than just the information you've put into your charts. Things like reload time, reload mechanics, shooting mechanics, tres and pres costs all matter. You've covered some of these in your analysis. You've also left quite a few of them out.
You also blatantly ignore the shotgun's spread. It's a pretty telling omission. In fact, this whole thread seems to highlight the shotgun's advantages (8 shell "mag" and high per-shot damage) while completely ignoring the shotgun's weakness (high reload time, pellet spread, short range, pres and tres cost).
IE: Let's see a chart of shotgun vs lmg damage with respect to cost. Or a line plot of average shotgun vs lmg damage over a distance x-axis. Notably ignored.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> To all the people who call the OP biased, the original intention was simply to start up a debate and keep the topic relevant <3~
My personal view for a solution is to simple take a few shells out of the clip, in order to bring down it's maximum damage output. This fix would also make it more important for a shotty to make sure each shot counts, and define it's role as the ALIEN fragger(If the devteam think of it as that).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A shotgun can put out 8 shots (1360dmg@w0) in ~15 seconds counting its reload time. This is ~91dps. An LMG can put out 1 mag (500dmg@w0) in ~5 seconds counting its reload time. This is ~100 dps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a difference in that the shotgun will frag as an OHK. That means that DPS is less important to the weapon itself due to it's high damage per shot. Ontop of that fact is the difference of 9dps is not sizeable. Typically shotguns are also easier to use due to the fact that it fires a cluster of bullets, giving you a slightly better chance to dish any damage at all.
Ontop of that, the shotty has the ability to fire before the clip is fully loaded. IE: Fire 5 shells, start reloading. See a skulk while reloading Choose to fire and cancel the reload sequence.
This means that you do not need to finish reloading the clip in order to fire again.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bitey, I think I speak for everyone when I say that your analysis is very in-depth and worth the read. In the future, you may want to cogitate on the benefit of using more visual, as opposed to textual information, as to avoid confusing others.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To anwser that, this was my first attempt at making kind of informative graphs to showcase some 'interesting' information. I might take on something simliar just to show case more weapon stats in a more diversified representation. It was slightly embarrassing when people pointed my lack of in-depth graphs (Goregous :<), I'd ask for some slack as it was my first time making graphs for this kind of subject. T_T
The other important graphs to show case how much a shotty can frag in one clip.
Carafade shots to kill <img src="http://i.imgur.com/aXv0z.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> Cara Lerk shots to kill <img src="http://i.imgur.com/auJhK.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> Cara Skulk shots to kill <img src="http://i.imgur.com/ZCbVJ.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Comments
On the other hand, Shotguns are the first and cheapest weapon that Marines get, is the only weapon besides the LMG that isn't gimmicky, and it trumps the LMG in that the Shotgun can deal with higher lifeforms while the LMG may as well be pelting them with marshmallows; which more or less nullifies the LMG's range advantage. Grenade Launchers have a few major disadvantages (Reload time, not being able to really shoot mid-reload like the Shotgun can, very dangerous to use it at close range, etc) and the Flamethrower is terribad, not to mention that both come later. I wouldn't really be surprised if in competitive matches, the only reason that the Advanced Armory goes up at all is to get a Proto Lab out there.
It's not a matter of the Shotgun being overwhelmingly good so much as Marines have nothing worthwhile to spend their pres on besides the Shotgun, Welder, Jetpack combo.
I think if the HMG returned, that would see an equal or higher use than the Shotgun...but UWE has said that the Exo is supposed to replace it (It doesn't)
Good point yep. A HMG, or just a second LMG (just a bit better and different) would balance the shotgun more.
TLDR shotgun balance needs to be off somewhat as its the best weapon vanilla marines can ever get. While i think shooting skulks with it should require quite a bit more skill, thats more an issue with skulk movement and possibly the spread, not the shotgun.
A shotgun can put out 8 shots (1360dmg@w0) in ~15 seconds counting its reload time. This is ~91dps.
An LMG can put out 1 mag (500dmg@w0) in ~5 seconds counting its reload time. This is ~100 dps.
Perhaps there is more to consider than just the information you've put into your charts. Things like reload time, reload mechanics, shooting mechanics, tres and pres costs all matter. You've covered some of these in your analysis. You've also left quite a few of them out.
You also blatantly ignore the shotgun's spread. It's a pretty telling omission. In fact, this whole thread seems to highlight the shotgun's advantages (8 shell "mag" and high per-shot damage) while completely ignoring the shotgun's weakness (high reload time, pellet spread, short range, pres and tres cost).
IE: Let's see a chart of shotgun vs lmg damage with respect to cost. Or a line plot of average shotgun vs lmg damage over a distance x-axis. Notably ignored.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To all the people who call the OP biased, the original intention was simply to start up a debate and keep the topic relevant <3~
My personal view for a solution is to simple take a few shells out of the clip, in order to bring down it's maximum damage output. This fix would also make it more important for a shotty to make sure each shot counts, and define it's role as the ALIEN fragger(If the devteam think of it as that).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A shotgun can put out 8 shots (1360dmg@w0) in ~15 seconds counting its reload time. This is ~91dps.
An LMG can put out 1 mag (500dmg@w0) in ~5 seconds counting its reload time. This is ~100 dps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a difference in that the shotgun will frag as an OHK. That means that DPS is less important to the weapon itself due to it's high damage per shot. Ontop of that fact is the difference of 9dps is not sizeable. Typically shotguns are also easier to use due to the fact that it fires a cluster of bullets, giving you a slightly better chance to dish any damage at all.
Ontop of that, the shotty has the ability to fire before the clip is fully loaded. IE:
Fire 5 shells, start reloading.
See a skulk while reloading
Choose to fire and cancel the reload sequence.
This means that you do not need to finish reloading the clip in order to fire again.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bitey, I think I speak for everyone when I say that your analysis is very in-depth and worth the read. In the future, you may want to cogitate on the benefit of using more visual, as opposed to textual information, as to avoid confusing others.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To anwser that, this was my first attempt at making kind of informative graphs to showcase some 'interesting' information. I might take on something simliar just to show case more weapon stats in a more diversified representation. It was slightly embarrassing when people pointed my lack of in-depth graphs (Goregous :<), I'd ask for some slack as it was my first time making graphs for this kind of subject. T_T
The other important graphs to show case how much a shotty can frag in one clip.
Carafade shots to kill
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/aXv0z.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Cara Lerk shots to kill
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/auJhK.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Cara Skulk shots to kill
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/ZCbVJ.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />