Competitive Play 22/23 Sept
Hugh
CameramanSan Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
CameramanSan Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
<div class="IPBDescription">NS2HD Mini-Tournament Perhaps? ENSL?</div>Hi guys! After the incredible success of the WasabiCup this weekend, I want to keep the momentum rolling into next week. Our Twitch channel is becoming seriously slick, your play is amazing, and we are starting to turn heads.
Now, I know many teams will be exhausted after this weekend's epicness, but I'm aiming for something small. Perhaps a 4-team double elimination or 8-team single elimination. Perhaps it could be an 'NS2HD' cup, or perhaps ENSL would like to step in as the 'sponsor' name?
If anyone has any ideas, interest in playing, or thoughts, dump them here and we'll get a discussion going.
Now, I know many teams will be exhausted after this weekend's epicness, but I'm aiming for something small. Perhaps a 4-team double elimination or 8-team single elimination. Perhaps it could be an 'NS2HD' cup, or perhaps ENSL would like to step in as the 'sponsor' name?
If anyone has any ideas, interest in playing, or thoughts, dump them here and we'll get a discussion going.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I guess what I'm saying is, don't call it a Cup/Tourney, treat it like a scrim :p I'm sure teams would be more than happy to show up and promote the game, but a less serious environment would make them more enjoyable for all involved.
I think a lot of the problems are in the cyst system, which perhaps could be solved with buildings (harvesters mainly) to spread the infestation and gicing gorges cysts for strategic building placements. Which would make the gorge a bit more useful as well perhaps.
This might not be the best solution, and i doubt it is something that will be looked at in this late stage of developement seeing as there are major changes to be made in that case. Just venting.
I for one would love more tournaments however and i know the rest of duplex is as well!
Big thanks to organizers, you did an awesome job!
Basically, it would work like this:
4 teams A->D
First 90 minute time slot:
A vs B
C vs D
2nd 90m slot:
A vs C
B vs D
3rd 90m slot:
A vs D
B vs C
In this situation, you have 6 full games (that's 12 halves, no tie breakers) with every game being casted assuming two streams. Each team gets experience playing every other team (huge plus over current tournament mechanics) and far less coin flip crap. Each team would play 3 full matches (could be only 2 halves or could be 4 halves -- 2 on eu ping 2 on na ping depending on length of tournament). A similar 4 team single elimination tournament would yield 3 matches with half of the teams not getting a chance to play more than 1 game. A double elimination tournament would yield 6-7 games total with some teams playing less others and possible rematches in the loser's bracket.
The team with the best record after every team has played every other team would win. You can record scores either by win/loss of every half or by win/loss/tie of matches.
If done by the first method, team A might go 5-1 while team B might go 5-1, and team C be 2-4 while team D would be 0-6. In this scenario, a "finals" would be held in, say, BO5 like the wasabi cup finals. This is the only situation in which a coinflip may be used.
If using the second method then the scours would look like this: A- 2-0-1, B-2-0-1, C-1-0-2, D-0-0-3.
Please consider a round robin format. Competitive players don't want coin flips deciding major factors (server ping, map, faction). Coin flipping and playing an uneven amount of games (ie elimination tournaments) seems so inherently wrong for an NS2 style a-symmetric game. We should focus on limiting coin flips while also giving players and viewers as many entertaining games as possible. Round Robin tournaments do this.
1) RULES ARE SET IN STONE
-rules need to be fully laid out and explained before hand.
-admins need to strictly adhere to rules.
-rules need to be designed to protect players and teams from abuse and should be signed off by players/teams, not forced by admins.
-rules should not be changed immediately (2-3 days) before, nor during, a tournament.
2) TOURNAMENTS ARE DRIVEN BY COMPETITIVE PLAYERS
-spectators and streams need to be ready when the competitive players are. It's fair to wait a few minutes to make sure the streamers are ready, but not fair to ask the competitive players to stop, regame, or hurry up when debating administrative issues. We had a tourny-admin force a restart in the finals of the wasabi tournament because a streamer wasn't aware and that just shouldn't be happening.
3) SERVERS
-servers need to be as fair as possible. Unfortunately, the NS2 community is not big enough to host regional tournaments so we have to compromise between NA and EU servers.
-compromise is typically done by forcing each marine game on their respective low pings.
-servers should be limited to be most fair to the other teams.
+swedish/finnish servers are bad for NA players much like west coast servers are bad for EU players.
+For NA: chicago/boston/NYC give the fairest pings to EU players.
+For EU: London, France, and sometimes German servers give the fairest pings to NA players.
-the difference between these servers is typically 20-60 ping for the far-team. 20-60 ping off 150 or 200 is noticeable and amounts to much fairer games.
4) NO MORE COINFLIPS!!!!!!1!!11!!!111 (more specifically: we shouldn't be coin flipping 5 times for each match)
-frustration resulting from coinflips deciding important things such as map, ping, or tie-breaking-factions
-coinflips must be limited
+a necessary evil for elimination tournaments (see my round robin suggestison above)
+should only be used in tie breakers, never in map choices
+acceptable in "meaningless" situations such as who plays what first (ie does A play aliens first, or B? or do we play first round on A's server and second round on B's or vice versa)
5) MAPS
-admin dictated, player approved
-admins should actively seek map advice from the competitive players/teams
-like rules, must be set in stone 2-3 days prior and NEVER EVER CHANGED
-please no coinflips
-please no "teams will figure it out" -- they won't
These are my recommendations after participating in the wasabi cup on pokemasters, mercing for nxzl in the previous ensl cup, and watching all of the games being streamed. I saw first hand how rules broke down because of lack of communication and changes. I also had the displeasure of seeing coin flips for five different things during every match. Overall I had a lot of fun playing and watching both tournaments. I love the publicity NS2 is getting from this -- 500-1500 viewers has to be great for sales. I am hopeful that tournaments will run smoother in the future.
P.S. Round Robin >>> elimination/double-elim for teams, admins, and spectators.
Also I want it to be clear, that most if not all the changes to any of the rules this weekend happened with the approval of the teams captains, if you dont like it then you need to have more communication within your groups. It was a fun weekend, I have fully taken blame for some of the logistical issues, but again there was no step throughout the planning that I didnt involve the designated captains. A lot to learn from and a lot to grow on, I hope to see more structured games like these. The scrim show are fun but the cup/tourney systems are more exciting.
There are big plans in the works and your continued input is always welcome.
Not to mention if you want to host an event, DO SO... its a lot of work, very rewarding, but no one is stopping you and we are all very supportive.
Also I want it to be clear, that most if not all the changes to any of the rules this weekend happened with the approval of the teams captains, if you dont like it then you need to have more communication within your groups. It was a fun weekend, I have fully taken blame for some of the logistical issues, but again there was no step throughout the planning that I didnt involve the designated captains. A lot to learn from and a lot to grow on, I hope to see more structured games like these. The scrim show are fun but the cup/tourney systems are more exciting.
There are big plans in the works and your continued input is always welcome.
Not to mention if you want to host an event, DO SO... its a lot of work, very rewarding, but no one is stopping you and we are all very supportive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think I could run a tournament any better than you did. I had fun playing and watching.
I wouldn't mind seeing this format. I'd do it something like:
- 4 rounds per matchup
- 2 on summit and 2 on veil
- Team with the best score wins
- If a tie in score occurs, then a best of 5 matchup is played in a similar format (2 summit, 2 veil) with a coinflip for map/side if it goes to the fifth round
I don't know NS2 community particularly well, but with NS1 and it's shrinking community the worst part was how little good gameplay time you got compared to all the organizing and all that. It was often an hour of searching, finding players and such and then a quick 30 minute 4-0 overrun or defeat.
If there's not any big twitchy event coming up, I'd recommend trying to just give teams as much quality gameplay as possible with as little time investment and commitment as possible. No need to shoutcast every match or try to build up any kind of bigger show, just make sure the teams are able to load up NS2 and have some guaranteed quality gameplay hours without delays, waiting or any other frustration.
In the long run you're going to have more happy teams, more even games and more people involved as a whole, which then pays off on any bigger tournaments.
Call them show matches, we'll treat them like show matches, and you'll still get your viewers that you desperately are trying to get. (completely understand, it's really needed for the game's growth!) And no one will get upset when rules change, things aren't understood correctly, servers crash or whatever happens. It's just for show of the game and nothing "matters".
Call it a tournament.. and things will need to be more tight on rules and organization. That's my view.
Disagree with showmatch so far, like round-robin but still have to think about it. Problem is, I'm awake for ~30 hours at this point and can't get a single straight thought :P
(means a post making more sense will follow)
as to the Round Robin, I do think its a fun idea I just was looking at this last CUP as a way to pull in viewers and to show off more top level play. Round robin is neat cause everyone gets to play each other however I have a feeling there will be many steamrolling matches based on the skill of some of our top teams.
I hear Nxzl is working on doing a tournament, I think thats awesome! Best of Luck, as I continue to say there are many things that were learned this weekend and the timing was the biggest one, I really hope that in the future there is a minimum two weeks after an announcement for any event.
Great job hosting it. Looking forward to the next one!
I agree that this should be the goal, but there has to be some discretionary "if absolutely needed" authority for the admins. A set of rules can never account for every possible situation and sometimes situations will arise that would make following the rules blindly ridiculous and counter-productive to the intention of having a tournament in the first place.
The rule change for the final between arc and pkmn yesterday is a perfect example of that. Forcing arc to play two sets of BO3 (with coin flips for server choice no less) would've been incredibly unfair, since the only reason arc got pushed into the lower bracket in the first place was because of a rule misunderstanding (arc should've picked the server for the upper bracket final tie breaker, not pkmn).
Instead, wasabi used his head and changed the rules to ensure a fair matchup that everybody could enjoy. Sure, there was some drama because of it, but much less than there would have been if the rules had not been changed. What's more important; the two teams got to play a fair set of matches and we ended up with an uncontested winner.
<!--quoteo(post=1978762:date=Sep 17 2012, 01:22 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Sep 17 2012, 01:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) TOURNAMENTS ARE DRIVEN BY COMPETITIVE PLAYERS
-spectators and streams need to be ready when the competitive players are. It's fair to wait a few minutes to make sure the streamers are ready, but not fair to ask the competitive players to stop, regame, or hurry up when debating administrative issues. We had a tourny-admin force a restart in the finals of the wasabi tournament because a streamer wasn't aware and that just shouldn't be happening.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also agree with this, but my experience has been that the streamers are not the problem. The only delay they caused was the one you mentioned in this post and I think that was fine. Of course it shouldn't happen, but I think everybody will have a much better time if we acknowledge that some screwups will happen and try our best to solve it in an amiable manner. In that particular case, the round had just started and restarting it caused no problems for the teams.
<!--quoteo(post=1978762:date=Sep 17 2012, 01:22 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Sep 17 2012, 01:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) SERVERS<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. Unfortunately, the only playable and available EU private servers are hosted by Scrajm, in Sweden. We might be able to get some German ones if depara wants to provide them, but if he doesn't then that's just how it is.
More or less agree with everything else you said.
<!--quoteo(post=1978899:date=Sep 17 2012, 09:30 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Sep 17 2012, 09:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978899"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If there's not any big twitchy event coming up, I'd recommend trying to just give teams as much quality gameplay as possible with as little time investment and commitment as possible. No need to shoutcast every match or try to build up any kind of bigger show, just make sure the teams are able to load up NS2 and have some guaranteed quality gameplay hours without delays, waiting or any other frustration.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see what you're saying and agree in principle, but at the same time, this hasn't really been an issue. I think if everybody just tries their best to accomodate each other, both casters and teams, it will bring the most benefit to the community as a whole. Lets not forget that good, timely, casts are highly beneficial to recruitment to the competitive scene.
<!--quoteo(post=1978915:date=Sep 17 2012, 09:59 AM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Sep 17 2012, 09:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So far these cups/tournaments have been treated like show matches. We've been pushed around some in different ways in order to help promote the game/help your best interests in showing your game. Giving us "60 seconds" to sort things out in the past tournament really showed it wasn't about us, it was about your game promotion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, the "60 seconds" business was ridiculous and I hope to never see it again.
<!--quoteo(post=1979065:date=Sep 17 2012, 04:23 PM:name=WasabiOne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WasabiOne @ Sep 17 2012, 04:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979065"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry lock but you had 5+ minutes between each round and more than 10 min between each match... Everyone was aware of the rules, I even added in the extra 5 min if a team wanted or needed it and it was only asked for once....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This rule is perfectly fine, as long as it is announced clearly to the teams beforehand and admined consistently. After years of delayed and frustrating matches in NS1, we were forcred to adopt a similar rule (10 minutes) and it worked wonders.
The rule should be that the teams have to ready within <x> minutes. After <x> minutes expires, the team that hasn't readied or has the least players on the team at the time, gets a forfeit loss for that round. Rinse and repeat for the next round. (by "round" I mean a half -- two rounds each map).
<!--quoteo(post=1979065:date=Sep 17 2012, 04:23 PM:name=WasabiOne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WasabiOne @ Sep 17 2012, 04:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979065"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->as to the Round Robin, I do think its a fun idea I just was looking at this last CUP as a way to pull in viewers and to show off more top level play. Round robin is neat cause everyone gets to play each other however I have a feeling there will be many steamrolling matches based on the skill of some of our top teams.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Easy solution; make two brackets. One for the presumed best teams and one for the other teams.
I think a similar setup to the English Premier League would work here. Two brackets and after each round robin, the team with the best score in the lower bracket gets put in the upper bracket during the next round robin and the team with the lowest score in the upper brackets gets bumped to the lower bracket. New teams start in the lower bracket.
That is a lot of games. With 4 teams, you'd end up with 6 RR + 3 SE. Or if a DE bracket, you'd have 6 RR + 6-7 DE. Anything with a round robin is nice, though.
<!--quoteo(post=1979065:date=Sep 17 2012, 11:23 AM:name=WasabiOne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WasabiOne @ Sep 17 2012, 11:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979065"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->as to the Round Robin, I do think its a fun idea I just was looking at this last CUP as a way to pull in viewers and to show off more top level play. Round robin is neat cause everyone gets to play each other however I have a feeling there will be many steamrolling matches based on the skill of some of our top teams.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree with this and let me share my wasabi cup experience to show why. We (pokemasters) were in the bottom bracket. We were around for 6 hours on Saturday to play a total of 7 halves (2 vs all-in-mix, 2 vs cyd, 3 vs arc). Of those 7 halves, only the 3 versus arc were truly competitive games for a team of our experience. We didn't get a single chance to play against either exertus or duplex and they were two of the strongest teams in the tournament. On Saturday, we basically played for 6 hours and only had 3 competitive halves. That's why I don't like elimination tournaments.
The competitive games will also be spread around because everyone will have the opportunity to play everyone else. Where pokemasters only had 3 truly competitive games, exertus and duplex played each other 6 times and arc 2-3 times again. Those teams had 8+ close games where as we only had 3 in the same period of time. If we had played in a round robin format then pokemasters would have had a match against arc, duplex, and exertus equaling a minimum of 6-9 competitive games against 3 different teams. That's much better than the 3 over 6 hours that we played on saturday or the 7 total that we played over ~8 hours with all of them against the same team.
-- Mouse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
-Mouse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So...they're show matches?
I think you and Wasabi are focusing too much on the criticism here. We actually have all had a great time with the last series of tournaments, and we very much want to be part of promoting NS2 so the community will grow upon release.
All we're asking is that you recognize the difference between a "tournament" and a "show". We don't care which we're playing, but we just don't want you to call a show match a tournament, because some of us come from the world of e-Sports, and the kind of thing you're describing is <b>not</b> a proper tournament. Its a show match.
And there's nothing wrong with that, hell, sign us up, we'll do another one! Of course we want thousands of viewers enjoying an epic match between skilled competitors.
But call it what it is, otherwise people get confused. That's all.
I hope i'm misunderstanding this reply because you either truly don't understand what the expected boundaries are or you're being purposefully arrogant... :s
Sorry hugh, you're just commentating these games, not creating any stage. You were invited to create commentary content on the official natural selection 2 twitch channel. These tournaments and the one locklear is referring to in particular were not hosted by you. Simply having the privilege to stream tournaments on the official twitch channel does not concede the rights to the whole 'show' to you or any other commentator for that matter.
It was pretty clear to anyone watching the underground blindNS stream at the time that you were putting the promotion of the game ahead of the context in which the teams were playing and in a very disrespectful manner. The stream records are there for anyone wanting to dig up that dirt (which i am not).
Again, i don't mean to make any drama or attack anyone personally, but your reply reeks of disrespect for the teams who played in order to provide you with the necessary content to commentate over. After what transpired i'm personally pretty amazed by the ammount of respect and tolerance some of the teams had in dealing with that particular event.
Disclaimer: Respect for the effort and good intentions of all parties goes without saying.
-Mouse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Now, as this thread has been so thoroughly derailed, it will be closed.