Honestly i don't care who is streaming the game. If they cant be patient then they can leave and that includes u ns2hd. And thats all it comes down to.
<!--quoteo(post=1979899:date=Sep 18 2012, 04:42 PM:name=Strayan%20%26%2340%3BNS2HD%26%2341%3B)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan%20%26%2340%3BNS2HD%26%2341%3B @ Sep 18 2012, 04:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979899"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your attitude is extremely offensive. It belittles the work of many people. It will take cooler-headed people many hours to convince me to let anyone with that attitude anywhere near twitch.tv/naturalselection2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly, as this game gets better and better and more optimized.. in theory there should be less issues and less delays and therefore we won't have these problems :)
Until then, I think the 10minute rule is a good amount of time to resolve things.
<!--quoteo(post=1979903:date=Sep 19 2012, 10:48 AM:name=nSidia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nSidia @ Sep 19 2012, 10:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979903"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly i don't care who is streaming the game. If they cant be patient then they can leave and that includes u ns2hd. And thats all it comes down to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I can safely assume that you are representing a vocal minority with no interest in growing the NS2 competitive scene. Which is fine, I just don't have to make any effort to support any of your play.
<!--quoteo(post=1979904:date=Sep 19 2012, 10:51 AM:name=nSidia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nSidia @ Sep 19 2012, 10:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979904"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No raza is right. You are a guest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A guest that would never accept the invitation to have anything to do with any players with such a self-entitled, rude, and un-appreciative attitude towards the work of other people.
If you compare things here to SC2 esports scene, this stuff isn't an issue.
I foresee a lot of this drama being non existent down the road with more organization. For now though, I still feel that your stance is more angled in suiting promoting the game over trying to promote us. If it was only about us, you wouldn't have abandoned us to pubs on the original ENSL #1 cup.
These are growing pains. I feel like as the game becomes popular, things will get better. You guys are already improving greatly from 1st try to this recent #2.
<!--quoteo(post=1979899:date=Sep 19 2012, 10:42 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Sep 19 2012, 10:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979899"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your attitude is extremely offensive. It belittles the work of many people. It will take cooler-headed people many hours to convince me to let anyone with that attitude anywhere near twitch.tv/naturalselection2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you might be reading that 'attitude' in... I certainly don't see it.
Anyway, Raza is making the same legitimate point many of us have been trying to make. If you feel he made it in a disrespectful manner, please try to overlook it and understand the validity of what he's saying. <b>The caster has no authority to dictate terms in events hosted by others</b>. You may choose to apply pressure, but try to do it a respectful manner privately with the host instead of cussing the players directly. This isn't aimed just at you Hugh, but as a blanket statement. No matter how tight rulesets are, stuff will always go wrong - a proper understanding of expected boundaries will go a long way.
I (and i think everyone else as well) am only saying this with concern for the credibility and reputation of twitch.tv/naturalselection2 in mind. You don't want to start building a reputation of being 'naziHD' and having the competitive scene start shunning the channe *edit* and vice versal. (I would hate to see that happen as well.)
<!--quoteo(post=1979899:date=Sep 19 2012, 01:42 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Sep 19 2012, 01:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979899"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Smaug, you are trying to break down a nuanced argument into a sound bite. Bad, bad Smaug. Also, there is not enough crazy Cydweithrediad play in my life right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really don't want to partake in this conversation, mainly because I'm not highly regarded enough for any opinion I have to be considered valuable by anyone here, but I think what I said has some merit, and sometimes we have to sound bite things for clarity, I mean, that's what a ruleset is after all, a list of sound bites to quickly parse rules.
Assuming the Wasabicup was designed to be played on twitch.tv/naturalselection2, if the wasabi cup had a ref besides wasabi himself (who was casting) with the knowledge that the ref has (for sake of an example) 3 minutes to solve a dispute, the casting would be affected less, and the down time would also be less. I think the system shock here is how severely these rules were forced, and how publicly they were being enforced.
And this thread is pretty important for anyone (myself included) who is thinking of organizing a tournament and are looking for the right casters. This will set a huge precedent, that if you want the better casters for your tournament, you will ultimately bow down to their rules, rather than casters adapting to the organizer's rules. If you want your own rules, you will probably lose a lot of viewers and have to take casters who aren't as well liked and known. I am a pathetic believer in people helping others to get to where they want to be, I do hope that casters (including those privileged enough to cast regularly on twitch.tv/naturalselection2) help each other out, rather than making a big distinction between themselves and others.
I will admit, after years of casting <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkRIHjqLpsk" target="_blank">Dystopia</a>, it makes me feel pretty uneasy. I'd always try and make sure they came first, and if I needed anything extra, it was only if they said it was OK. Another thing in Dystopia was the big distinction in the Dystopia Global League between the Spirit of the Rules and the Letter of the rules. But I guess that's the difference between a mod few people care about and a game that is aiming to hit the big leagues, and I do respect that.
I'd rather not reply here further, but given you wanted a fuller response, I did - I do hope that you consider us friends enough to talk to me in person if you wanna discuss anything (this casting drama, the meaning of life, boobies, etc.)!
No real drama here, we all seem pretty reasonable.
I think we have a very unique situation here for a lot of reasons. We have a complicated game. We have limited amount of teams from beta. We have a MASSIVE difference in ability based on ping (this is a big one).
And contrasting all of these reasons, we have a very close release date that we all want to be successful.
I really think this last point is what is causing a lot of the problems right now. I don't see this issue being this serious in the future, as the game's own community will drive growth and viewership - relieving the stress on the casters to drum up interest.
This is the common ground I can find with Hugh - <b>but</b> I do completely disagree after release date.
A tournament has two groups of people involved - the tournament admins and the teams playing. Casters then attach to that set up and create their content from this. You make money from that content, which is being created by the players and tournament crew. This is why they should <b>not</b> be run according to the casters' rules. Unless of course it is the casters' tournament.
Hugh, why act like you are doing the community a favour? You get paid to promote the game, and the fact that there are even teams playing that allow you to cast their games is something you should appreciate. It's very passive aggressive to say, I'm going to pull all my resources away from casting etc. Do it then..it's not like it will make much difference to any of the players. They will still play and have fun and I'm sure other casters will fill your shoes very quickly.
Unless you are the one who organises the tournament then you are just a spectator and have no say on how long breaks last etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1979909:date=Sep 19 2012, 03:14 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Sep 19 2012, 03:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979909"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, I can safely assume that you are representing a vocal minority with no interest in growing the NS2 competitive scene. Which is fine, I just don't have to make any effort to support any of your play.
A guest that would never accept the invitation to have anything to do with any players with such a self-entitled, rude, and un-appreciative attitude towards the work of other people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> your getting carryed away a little with your words there yourself hugh. dont let these comments derail your efforts, these people are not thinking of the possible big future of competetive NS2 casting. they simply dont care if the match is casted or not, if its 5 people watching or 500. feel free to ignore them, your reality and theirs are very unlikely to come into contact.(exept on the forum, multidimensional laws dont apply here.)
Edit: reread my post, sounds like im talking people down myself here, im also putting words in the mouths of others, thats not intended. i realy hate forums there is no way to get your nuances across without huge walls of text. just take it as a agree to disagree or something.
Honestly, I think at this point we've reached a much better understanding of both sides of this discussion, and I'm ready to call that a success.
Hugh, I know I personally greatly appreciate the time you put into your detailed post (including the nifty graphs) in order to better explain your position.
I think the primary concern some of us are still dealing with is the balance between the 'show' and what we all generally have come to expect from competitive eSports.
That said, I think Hugh has hit on the most important aspect of this, which I also mentioned, being the fact that these are live streams, rather than prerecorded broadcasts. If Hugh simply recorded the matches, and then went back with some voice overs and did his own editing, this would all be a moot point.
The most important thing I think we need to take away from this, is that in order for us to create a more formalized competitive environment, which would ultimately mitigate the issues we've had to deal with lately, what we need is more structure around the event organization.
There are ways we can better accommodate the casting side of these events without compromising the integrity of whatever match is being played, one of which is simply through better scheduling but there are others.
What we need to have, and I think this is something Hugh can agree with, and is present in most other eSports, is a much more thorough system of rules set in place for our "Tournaments." These rules can very easily include regulating how long, and when it is appropriate, teams have to dispute an issue, and with a more formalized system we can actually have referees present in every match, ready to settle problems quickly, fairly, and decisively.
The truth is, if we do things right as a professional competitive community, we really shouldn't see these problems crop up anymore. If we do things badly, then I think we'll have more of these threads. But I think most of us at least are on the same page in terms of what we want to accomplish, and I think we can agree on what the right way of getting there is.
Very useful thread (though I still don't like calling it an argument, Hugh -_-).
<!--quoteo(post=1979919:date=Sep 19 2012, 04:27 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Sep 19 2012, 04:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979919"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyway, Raza is making the same legitimate point many of us have been trying to make. If you feel he made it in a disrespectful manner, please try to overlook it and understand the validity of what he's saying. <b>The caster has no authority to dictate terms in events hosted by others</b>. You may choose to apply pressure, but try to do it a respectful manner privately with the host instead of cussing the players directly. This isn't aimed just at you Hugh, but as a blanket statement. No matter how tight rulesets are, stuff will always go wrong - a proper understanding of expected boundaries will go a long way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think whats going on here is Hugh is providing a service ( the live feed and fulfilling a commentator role with the backing of Unknown Worlds + possible other company's and possible prizes?) to help promote you're tournament and yet you are slapping him in the face, If you don't want these benefits then do all the work yourself and be done with it, I'm sure hugh wouldn't mind at all but if you are willing to work with him then a huge load of work could be lifted off your shoulders, plus with all the backing you would get far more viewers and attention then anything you could do alone right now.
last post from me here: what RedDragon said +1 after the next few cups/tournaments there will be tested rules and scedules that work for the high quality ns2 official live cast, no doubt about it. a player in that cup/tournament has the right to see the casters and hundreds of viewers as irrelevant spectators.(for the rules and scedules the players believes are irrelevant too) also these rules and scedules will not bow before a caster or a viewer. the administrator of a cup/tournament will have the power to settle disputes in a quick and decisive manner. this power will also come with the responsibility for the repercussions of the made decission.
Let me preface this post by saying I am speaking for myself, not for my team.
Here's the thing with these tournaments, they are for fun right now (no prizes) and being bullied by casters makes teams not want to play. I honestly could care less what the viewer count is at during any given time. If in the future there are prizes, the tournament should be run by whoever is hosting. If that happens to be UWE hosting then I will willingly follow all rules, regulations and timings set forth by UWE.
NS2 has been touted as being a community game, built for the players. I believe in this mantra due to the open LUA code, the developers taking feedback seriously about the game, and the inclusion of community members in the development of the game. The only place I haven't seen this apply is recently to the streaming of the past two tournaments. It's great for UWE to stream the matches on the NS2 official channel, but not when if things don't get run the way you want, players get threatened. The onus of keeping a stream entertained falls squarely on the caster, not the players.
UWE gets way more benefit from games being cast than any player or team does. We're doing you a favor, not the other way around; I am not getting paid to participate. I have a job that does not involve NS2 and I take a lot of my personal time practicing NS2 so that I can do well in impending tournaments. When I have nearly a thousand hours logged in game it rubs me the wrong way when rules are being changed and rushed for the benefit of the stream. I think that teams are actually pretty quick about being ready considering all the factors involved: map changes, server changes, swapping players, assessing what strategies to use, dealing with game/server issues, checking rules, etc. Also, during this time I have to try and figure out if I can manage to take a piss and get a drink after playing a round that can potentially last two hours. Why should any team be penalized for a rules challenge, game issue or server problems simply because we may lose a few viewers? Doing so leads to resentment and threads like this one here, as well as, lowered confidence in the casters and moderators.
One thing is clear though; players are frustrated with how tournaments are being railroaded by caster preference. It's not as small a minority as you imagine it being. Most people don't like to create waves. I was intent on not saying anything because I was one of those aforementioned people, but after reading basically "this is how it's going to be, if you don't like it tough s***", that was pretty much the last straw for me.
The COMMENTATORS are along for the ride, and the ORGANIZER calls the shots. I dont see where the commentator = judge, jury, and executionor. When a tournament is organized in 1 week you expect silky smooth results?
On top of this Casters shouldnt set time limits etc, you are there for the RIDE, if you want to control it, have a show match, dont push tournaments and try to take over them from the original organizer.
If you cant wait 5 minutes to resolve a dispute in what is a BETA cup (the 2nd of its kind), which is bound to be fraught with problems, then you need to not stream it.
I'm not going to side with either position in this debate, but I would like to ask the people who feel that what Hugh says he will do in the future is not acceptable a question:
I hear a lot of people in this thread talking about how they could switch to other streams. If you guys have a problem with the requirements (fair or not, that's not for me to say) Hugh puts on his players, why not just use one of those? If, as you say, non-UWE tournaments aren't Hugh's and he has no place exerting pressure on them, why deal with the headache? Why do you continue to post here in an attempt to change his mind?
Not trying to hide an argument in this post. This is one question I haven't seen answered yet.
<!--quoteo(post=1980042:date=Sep 18 2012, 11:24 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Sep 18 2012, 11:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980042"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you guys have a problem with the requirements (fair or not, that's not for me to say) Hugh puts on his players, why not just use one of those? If, as you say, non-UWE tournaments aren't Hugh's and he has no place exerting pressure on them, why deal with the headache? Why do you continue to post here in an attempt to change his mind?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) We would like to work with UWE if at all possible. I have a lot of faith in the company and it's ability to work with players. I'm hoping that after seeing all of this feedback changes can be made so that everyone can continue on together.
2) There aren't a lot of streamers right now.
3) The players won't host all the tournaments and it will be up to whomever is hosting the tournament to decide who is casting. I'd rather not have to decide if I'm going to participate in a tournament based on who is casting.
<!--quoteo(post=1980042:date=Sep 19 2012, 03:24 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Sep 19 2012, 03:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980042"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you guys have a problem with the requirements (fair or not, that's not for me to say) Hugh puts on his players, why not just use one of those? If, as you say, non-UWE tournaments aren't Hugh's and he has no place exerting pressure on them, why deal with the headache?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I assume you mean from the perspective of tournament organizers and players? The ENSL night cup was pretty much the first tournament of any significance and players obviously had no idea about whatever requirements were expected. I'm pretty sure future tournament hosts/players will definitely be considering this information when deciding on streams etc. going forward.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why do you continue to post here in an attempt to change his mind?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because we care enough to let him know the way he's doing it now is potentially very damaging.
<!--quoteo(post=1980048:date=Sep 19 2012, 12:36 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Sep 19 2012, 12:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980048"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I assume you mean from the perspective of tournament organizers and players? The ENSL night cup was pretty much the first tournament of any significance and players obviously had no idea about whatever requirements were expected. I'm pretty sure future tournament hosts/players will definitely be considering this information when deciding on streams etc. going forward.
Because we care enough to let him know the way he's doing it now is potentially very damaging.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well here's what I don't get. Hugh has indicated he knows it is "damaging" as you call it. He has mentioned he is happy if other streams take over to cater to more official, less stressful play. He's come out and said he doesn't mind if you choose to use another Stream, but that he has certain expectations of things that occur on his. Again, not trying to say whether those expectations are right or not, but he has stated all of this in the thread.
If you want to let him know you might choose someone else, and he's said he knows you might choose someone else, what more is there to discuss? It seems like a matter of just picking the stream that works best for your event to me, so I'm looking to figure out what you guys are attempt to tell Hugh, or what you are trying to get him to change by your continued participation. What your goal is, in a sense.
<ul>1. The Tournament Host is the king. If he agrees to play with Hugh's rules to get Hugh to cast the games, then so be it. However casters don't go over the refs and so on unless clearly permitted.
2. If the Tournament doesn't agree with Hugh, Hugh doesn't cast it or casts along the lines the tournament host sets.
3. If Hugh can't find tournaments that suit his needs, he's free to host one himself or find someone to host it.</li></ul>
I guarantee it's pretty damn hard to run a high-octane tournament with community this small, game with so few actual miles behind, 12 people connected over the internet and so on. Even something like SC2 has troubles here and there despite the professionalism, massive community, highly reliable and understood game, high tournament routine, LAN tournament possibilities and all that. Expecting anything similar from NS2 is least to say ambitious.
Everyone should have more than enough benefits from co-operation here. Discuss, negociate and all that. The last thing we need here is people taking offence in pretty valid viewpoints.
<!--quoteo(post=1979883:date=Sep 19 2012, 02:12 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Sep 19 2012, 02:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979883"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The part where many competitive players seem to be deciding to skewer me, is the 'rule of law' during a tournament. The crucial word in the graphs above is 'live.' Solving the dispute <b><i>live</i></b>. The rules must be respected, this is not negotiable. But during a highly time sensitive production, choices must be made. Let's look at a hypothetical example:
Suppose two teams are playing on twitch.tv/naturalselection2. They are 120 seconds away from being due to start a round. Team X brings in a player that team Y believes is illegal. The admins begin to discuss the rules with the team captains, behind the scenes. 120 seconds pass, and the casters go into 'filler mode' - Telling the audience there is a dispute, and running replays, stats, trailers, and generally joking around. After five minutes, the teams and admins still cannot agree on the rules. The teams/admins/casters are faced with a choice.
Option 1. Continue to attempt to resolve the dispute while the stream is live.
Option 2. Agree to decide on the violation of the rules after the stream ends. If a winning team is found to have broken the rules, they are penalised, disqualified, titles revoked, etc.
Depending on the time pressure of a stream, a choice can be made. There may be intermediate options. In the case of twitch.tv/naturalselection2, the time pressure is at maximum. <b>Option 1</b> is not appropriate. <b>Option 2 </b>must be chosen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that disputes should be handled after a match. However, that should be written in the tournament rules. Casters can't make that decision on their own. Unless you are hosting a showmatch or this option is part of the tournament rules, option 2 is entirely inappropriate. A valid option is to stop casting the game when things are taking too long. Perhaps switch to another parallel running game. I think we might even agree in essence, we are just looking at it from different angles. Option 2 is reasonable if you replace "after the <i>stream</i> ends" with "after the <i>match</i> ends".
<!--quoteo(post=1979899:date=Sep 19 2012, 02:42 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Sep 19 2012, 02:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979899"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your attitude is extremely offensive. It belittles the work of many people. It will take cooler-headed people many hours to convince me to let anyone with that attitude anywhere near twitch.tv/naturalselection2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have no idea how that was offensive to you, it certainly wasn't meant to be. All I'm saying is that casters present the game, while handling disputes and enforcing rules is up to the tournament hosts (and only to them). You know, like it has always been in the history of radio, TV and internet casting.
Personally I would advise teams and organizer to avoid the NS2 official stream, it seems really complicated and doesn't actually brings anything to the players. It sounds like a bunch of additional problems to deal with.
Geez people, I think all of this has gone on long enough... everyone has said their peace, now lets all step back, take a deep breath and move on. Can we just have an admin close this thread? We have so much feedback here I think we can move forward with certain details on future events from any parties that will help everyone be on the same page.
Many mods and many people are requesting this thread be closed, but I'm going to keep it open for now because this is a very, very important argument to be having. I am convinced that this week will go down as one of the most important in the history of competitive NS2. Now, to continue my responses:
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>"Players should stay away from the official stream. If Hugh doesn't want to put slow-moving tournaments up there, whatever. We don't get anything out of it anyway."</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
This argument, being forwarded by many posters who I have since discovered <i>do not even play on competitive teams</i>, is fatally flawed. The entire, total reason I am laying down high-speed ground rules for being on twitch.tv/naturalselection2, is that you guys will have opportunities there you won't get anywhere else.
When I say 'you guys,' I mean competitive players.
Right now, you play for glory. Well what if that changed? What if you had regular opportunities to play for something more than glory? Well that's what I'm aiming for. I want to give you guys the epic stage, on which much more than just 'glory' can happen.
Obviously I can't give any more details until these things are nailed down. But players that aren't interested in 'more than glory' are welcome to sit on their high horses and look down on those who want to be part of something big.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>"The casters have no authority to tell us what to do."</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Sure. Whatever. You don't have to play by fast paced rules - just don't play on twitch.tv/naturalselection2. Which means, don't play for the 'more than glory' which I'm organising for you. When you play for 'more than glory,' a two-way street happens: You give up your flexibility, and in return you get amazing opportunities.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>"Hugh is using us to promote the game"</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
This ridiculous. If it were true, I would just pay a bunch of professional eSports teams to play show-matches on the front page of Twitch. It would certainly be easier, and cheaper, than what I'm trying to produce for you instead. I'm sure we'd make some soulless marketing-dollar-driven sales and UWE would lose a bit of what makes it a different type of developer.
No - This is about supporting the organic, real growth of a wonderful, inspiring competitive community: And giving you guys the opportunity to play, win, lose, scream, cry, and smile on a much bigger stage, with much higher stakes.
There are many that will want to be part of this, to play for something more than glory. Of course, there are many that don't - That can't stand the idea that they might have to 'keep a stream rolling.' Your opinion is valid, your desires are valid. But don't get in the way of the people that do want this stage, that do want these opportunities.
nadyliJoin Date: 2007-11-01Member: 62791Members, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1980324:date=Sep 19 2012, 08:57 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Sep 19 2012, 08:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980324"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would just pay a bunch of professional eSports teams to play show-matches on the front page of Twitch. I<b>t would certainly be easier, and cheaper</b>, than what I'm trying to produce for you instead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
No raza is right. You are a guest.
Until then, I think the 10minute rule is a good amount of time to resolve things.
Well, I can safely assume that you are representing a vocal minority with no interest in growing the NS2 competitive scene. Which is fine, I just don't have to make any effort to support any of your play.
<!--quoteo(post=1979904:date=Sep 19 2012, 10:51 AM:name=nSidia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nSidia @ Sep 19 2012, 10:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979904"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No raza is right. You are a guest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A guest that would never accept the invitation to have anything to do with any players with such a self-entitled, rude, and un-appreciative attitude towards the work of other people.
I foresee a lot of this drama being non existent down the road with more organization. For now though, I still feel that your stance is more angled in suiting promoting the game over trying to promote us. If it was only about us, you wouldn't have abandoned us to pubs on the original ENSL #1 cup.
These are growing pains. I feel like as the game becomes popular, things will get better. You guys are already improving greatly from 1st try to this recent #2.
I think you might be reading that 'attitude' in... I certainly don't see it.
Anyway, Raza is making the same legitimate point many of us have been trying to make. If you feel he made it in a disrespectful manner, please try to overlook it and understand the validity of what he's saying. <b>The caster has no authority to dictate terms in events hosted by others</b>. You may choose to apply pressure, but try to do it a respectful manner privately with the host instead of cussing the players directly. This isn't aimed just at you Hugh, but as a blanket statement. No matter how tight rulesets are, stuff will always go wrong - a proper understanding of expected boundaries will go a long way.
I (and i think everyone else as well) am only saying this with concern for the credibility and reputation of twitch.tv/naturalselection2 in mind. You don't want to start building a reputation of being 'naziHD' and having the competitive scene start shunning the channe *edit* and vice versal. (I would hate to see that happen as well.)
I really don't want to partake in this conversation, mainly because I'm not highly regarded enough for any opinion I have to be considered valuable by anyone here, but I think what I said has some merit, and sometimes we have to sound bite things for clarity, I mean, that's what a ruleset is after all, a list of sound bites to quickly parse rules.
Assuming the Wasabicup was designed to be played on twitch.tv/naturalselection2, if the wasabi cup had a ref besides wasabi himself (who was casting) with the knowledge that the ref has (for sake of an example) 3 minutes to solve a dispute, the casting would be affected less, and the down time would also be less. I think the system shock here is how severely these rules were forced, and how publicly they were being enforced.
And this thread is pretty important for anyone (myself included) who is thinking of organizing a tournament and are looking for the right casters. This will set a huge precedent, that if you want the better casters for your tournament, you will ultimately bow down to their rules, rather than casters adapting to the organizer's rules. If you want your own rules, you will probably lose a lot of viewers and have to take casters who aren't as well liked and known. I am a pathetic believer in people helping others to get to where they want to be, I do hope that casters (including those privileged enough to cast regularly on twitch.tv/naturalselection2) help each other out, rather than making a big distinction between themselves and others.
I will admit, after years of casting <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkRIHjqLpsk" target="_blank">Dystopia</a>, it makes me feel pretty uneasy. I'd always try and make sure they came first, and if I needed anything extra, it was only if they said it was OK. Another thing in Dystopia was the big distinction in the Dystopia Global League between the Spirit of the Rules and the Letter of the rules. But I guess that's the difference between a mod few people care about and a game that is aiming to hit the big leagues, and I do respect that.
I'd rather not reply here further, but given you wanted a fuller response, I did - I do hope that you consider us friends enough to talk to me in person if you wanna discuss anything (this casting drama, the meaning of life, boobies, etc.)!
I think we have a very unique situation here for a lot of reasons. We have a complicated game. We have limited amount of teams from beta. We have a MASSIVE difference in ability based on ping (this is a big one).
And contrasting all of these reasons, we have a very close release date that we all want to be successful.
I really think this last point is what is causing a lot of the problems right now. I don't see this issue being this serious in the future, as the game's own community will drive growth and viewership - relieving the stress on the casters to drum up interest.
This is the common ground I can find with Hugh - <b>but</b> I do completely disagree after release date.
A tournament has two groups of people involved - the tournament admins and the teams playing. Casters then attach to that set up and create their content from this. You make money from that content, which is being created by the players and tournament crew. This is why they should <b>not</b> be run according to the casters' rules. Unless of course it is the casters' tournament.
Unless you are the one who organises the tournament then you are just a spectator and have no say on how long breaks last etc.
A guest that would never accept the invitation to have anything to do with any players with such a self-entitled, rude, and un-appreciative attitude towards the work of other people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
your getting carryed away a little with your words there yourself hugh.
dont let these comments derail your efforts, these people are not thinking of the possible big future of competetive NS2 casting.
they simply dont care if the match is casted or not, if its 5 people watching or 500. feel free to ignore them, your reality and theirs are very unlikely to come into contact.(exept on the forum, multidimensional laws dont apply here.)
Edit: reread my post, sounds like im talking people down myself here, im also putting words in the mouths of others, thats not intended. i realy hate forums there is no way to get your nuances across without huge walls of text. just take it as a agree to disagree or something.
Hugh, I know I personally greatly appreciate the time you put into your detailed post (including the nifty graphs) in order to better explain your position.
I think the primary concern some of us are still dealing with is the balance between the 'show' and what we all generally have come to expect from competitive eSports.
That said, I think Hugh has hit on the most important aspect of this, which I also mentioned, being the fact that these are live streams, rather than prerecorded broadcasts. If Hugh simply recorded the matches, and then went back with some voice overs and did his own editing, this would all be a moot point.
The most important thing I think we need to take away from this, is that in order for us to create a more formalized competitive environment, which would ultimately mitigate the issues we've had to deal with lately, what we need is more structure around the event organization.
There are ways we can better accommodate the casting side of these events without compromising the integrity of whatever match is being played, one of which is simply through better scheduling but there are others.
What we need to have, and I think this is something Hugh can agree with, and is present in most other eSports, is a much more thorough system of rules set in place for our "Tournaments." These rules can very easily include regulating how long, and when it is appropriate, teams have to dispute an issue, and with a more formalized system we can actually have referees present in every match, ready to settle problems quickly, fairly, and decisively.
The truth is, if we do things right as a professional competitive community, we really shouldn't see these problems crop up anymore. If we do things badly, then I think we'll have more of these threads. But I think most of us at least are on the same page in terms of what we want to accomplish, and I think we can agree on what the right way of getting there is.
Very useful thread (though I still don't like calling it an argument, Hugh -_-).
what RedDragon said +1
after the next few cups/tournaments there will be tested rules and scedules that work for the high quality ns2 official live cast, no doubt about it.
a player in that cup/tournament has the right to see the casters and hundreds of viewers as irrelevant spectators.(for the rules and scedules the players believes are irrelevant too)
also these rules and scedules will not bow before a caster or a viewer.
the administrator of a cup/tournament will have the power to settle disputes in a quick and decisive manner. this power will also come with the responsibility for the repercussions of the made decission.
Here's the thing with these tournaments, they are for fun right now (no prizes) and being bullied by casters makes teams not want to play. I honestly could care less what the viewer count is at during any given time. If in the future there are prizes, the tournament should be run by whoever is hosting. If that happens to be UWE hosting then I will willingly follow all rules, regulations and timings set forth by UWE.
NS2 has been touted as being a community game, built for the players. I believe in this mantra due to the open LUA code, the developers taking feedback seriously about the game, and the inclusion of community members in the development of the game. The only place I haven't seen this apply is recently to the streaming of the past two tournaments. It's great for UWE to stream the matches on the NS2 official channel, but not when if things don't get run the way you want, players get threatened. The onus of keeping a stream entertained falls squarely on the caster, not the players.
UWE gets way more benefit from games being cast than any player or team does. We're doing you a favor, not the other way around; I am not getting paid to participate. I have a job that does not involve NS2 and I take a lot of my personal time practicing NS2 so that I can do well in impending tournaments. When I have nearly a thousand hours logged in game it rubs me the wrong way when rules are being changed and rushed for the benefit of the stream. I think that teams are actually pretty quick about being ready considering all the factors involved: map changes, server changes, swapping players, assessing what strategies to use, dealing with game/server issues, checking rules, etc. Also, during this time I have to try and figure out if I can manage to take a piss and get a drink after playing a round that can potentially last two hours. Why should any team be penalized for a rules challenge, game issue or server problems simply because we may lose a few viewers? Doing so leads to resentment and threads like this one here, as well as, lowered confidence in the casters and moderators.
One thing is clear though; players are frustrated with how tournaments are being railroaded by caster preference. It's not as small a minority as you imagine it being. Most people don't like to create waves. I was intent on not saying anything because I was one of those aforementioned people, but after reading basically "this is how it's going to be, if you don't like it tough s***", that was pretty much the last straw for me.
The COMMENTATORS are along for the ride, and the ORGANIZER calls the shots. I dont see where the commentator = judge, jury, and executionor. When a tournament is organized in 1 week you expect silky smooth results?
On top of this Casters shouldnt set time limits etc, you are there for the RIDE, if you want to control it, have a show match, dont push tournaments and try to take over them from the original organizer.
If you cant wait 5 minutes to resolve a dispute in what is a BETA cup (the 2nd of its kind), which is bound to be fraught with problems, then you need to not stream it.
I hear a lot of people in this thread talking about how they could switch to other streams. If you guys have a problem with the requirements (fair or not, that's not for me to say) Hugh puts on his players, why not just use one of those? If, as you say, non-UWE tournaments aren't Hugh's and he has no place exerting pressure on them, why deal with the headache? Why do you continue to post here in an attempt to change his mind?
Not trying to hide an argument in this post. This is one question I haven't seen answered yet.
1) We would like to work with UWE if at all possible. I have a lot of faith in the company and it's ability to work with players. I'm hoping that after seeing all of this feedback changes can be made so that everyone can continue on together.
2) There aren't a lot of streamers right now.
3) The players won't host all the tournaments and it will be up to whomever is hosting the tournament to decide who is casting. I'd rather not have to decide if I'm going to participate in a tournament based on who is casting.
I assume you mean from the perspective of tournament organizers and players?
The ENSL night cup was pretty much the first tournament of any significance and players obviously had no idea about whatever requirements were expected. I'm pretty sure future tournament hosts/players will definitely be considering this information when deciding on streams etc. going forward.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why do you continue to post here in an attempt to change his mind?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because we care enough to let him know the way he's doing it now is potentially very damaging.
The ENSL night cup was pretty much the first tournament of any significance and players obviously had no idea about whatever requirements were expected. I'm pretty sure future tournament hosts/players will definitely be considering this information when deciding on streams etc. going forward.
Because we care enough to let him know the way he's doing it now is potentially very damaging.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well here's what I don't get. Hugh has indicated he knows it is "damaging" as you call it. He has mentioned he is happy if other streams take over to cater to more official, less stressful play. He's come out and said he doesn't mind if you choose to use another Stream, but that he has certain expectations of things that occur on his. Again, not trying to say whether those expectations are right or not, but he has stated all of this in the thread.
If you want to let him know you might choose someone else, and he's said he knows you might choose someone else, what more is there to discuss? It seems like a matter of just picking the stream that works best for your event to me, so I'm looking to figure out what you guys are attempt to tell Hugh, or what you are trying to get him to change by your continued participation. What your goal is, in a sense.
Can we move on now?
<ul>1. The Tournament Host is the king. If he agrees to play with Hugh's rules to get Hugh to cast the games, then so be it. However casters don't go over the refs and so on unless clearly permitted.
2. If the Tournament doesn't agree with Hugh, Hugh doesn't cast it or casts along the lines the tournament host sets.
3. If Hugh can't find tournaments that suit his needs, he's free to host one himself or find someone to host it.</li></ul>
I guarantee it's pretty damn hard to run a high-octane tournament with community this small, game with so few actual miles behind, 12 people connected over the internet and so on. Even something like SC2 has troubles here and there despite the professionalism, massive community, highly reliable and understood game, high tournament routine, LAN tournament possibilities and all that. Expecting anything similar from NS2 is least to say ambitious.
Everyone should have more than enough benefits from co-operation here. Discuss, negociate and all that. The last thing we need here is people taking offence in pretty valid viewpoints.
Suppose two teams are playing on twitch.tv/naturalselection2. They are 120 seconds away from being due to start a round. Team X brings in a player that team Y believes is illegal. The admins begin to discuss the rules with the team captains, behind the scenes. 120 seconds pass, and the casters go into 'filler mode' - Telling the audience there is a dispute, and running replays, stats, trailers, and generally joking around. After five minutes, the teams and admins still cannot agree on the rules. The teams/admins/casters are faced with a choice.
Option 1. Continue to attempt to resolve the dispute while the stream is live.
Option 2. Agree to decide on the violation of the rules after the stream ends. If a winning team is found to have broken the rules, they are penalised, disqualified, titles revoked, etc.
Depending on the time pressure of a stream, a choice can be made. There may be intermediate options. In the case of twitch.tv/naturalselection2, the time pressure is at maximum. <b>Option 1</b> is not appropriate. <b>Option 2 </b>must be chosen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that disputes should be handled after a match. However, that should be written in the tournament rules. Casters can't make that decision on their own. Unless you are hosting a showmatch or this option is part of the tournament rules, option 2 is entirely inappropriate.
A valid option is to stop casting the game when things are taking too long. Perhaps switch to another parallel running game.
I think we might even agree in essence, we are just looking at it from different angles. Option 2 is reasonable if you replace "after the <i>stream</i> ends" with "after the <i>match</i> ends".
<!--quoteo(post=1979899:date=Sep 19 2012, 02:42 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Sep 19 2012, 02:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979899"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your attitude is extremely offensive. It belittles the work of many people. It will take cooler-headed people many hours to convince me to let anyone with that attitude anywhere near twitch.tv/naturalselection2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have no idea how that was offensive to you, it certainly wasn't meant to be.
All I'm saying is that casters present the game, while handling disputes and enforcing rules is up to the tournament hosts (and only to them). You know, like it has always been in the history of radio, TV and internet casting.
e: alright, a little bit of kidding
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>"Players should stay away from the official stream. If Hugh doesn't want to put slow-moving tournaments up there, whatever. We don't get anything out of it anyway."</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
This argument, being forwarded by many posters who I have since discovered <i>do not even play on competitive teams</i>, is fatally flawed. The entire, total reason I am laying down high-speed ground rules for being on twitch.tv/naturalselection2, is that you guys will have opportunities there you won't get anywhere else.
When I say 'you guys,' I mean competitive players.
Right now, you play for glory. Well what if that changed? What if you had regular opportunities to play for something more than glory? Well that's what I'm aiming for. I want to give you guys the epic stage, on which much more than just 'glory' can happen.
Obviously I can't give any more details until these things are nailed down. But players that aren't interested in 'more than glory' are welcome to sit on their high horses and look down on those who want to be part of something big.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>"The casters have no authority to tell us what to do."</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Sure. Whatever. You don't have to play by fast paced rules - just don't play on twitch.tv/naturalselection2. Which means, don't play for the 'more than glory' which I'm organising for you. When you play for 'more than glory,' a two-way street happens: You give up your flexibility, and in return you get amazing opportunities.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>"Hugh is using us to promote the game"</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
This ridiculous. If it were true, I would just pay a bunch of professional eSports teams to play show-matches on the front page of Twitch. It would certainly be easier, and cheaper, than what I'm trying to produce for you instead. I'm sure we'd make some soulless marketing-dollar-driven sales and UWE would lose a bit of what makes it a different type of developer.
No - This is about supporting the organic, real growth of a wonderful, inspiring competitive community: And giving you guys the opportunity to play, win, lose, scream, cry, and smile on a much bigger stage, with much higher stakes.
There are many that will want to be part of this, to play for something more than glory. Of course, there are many that don't - That can't stand the idea that they might have to 'keep a stream rolling.' Your opinion is valid, your desires are valid. But don't get in the way of the people that do want this stage, that do want these opportunities.
This ridiculous indeed.