b220 wall jumping
GORGEous
Join Date: 2012-02-19 Member: 146762Members, NS2 Map Tester
Join Date: 2012-02-19 Member: 146762Members, NS2 Map Tester
<div class="IPBDescription">(the worst incarnation yet)</div>I'm curious what other people think.
My first impression is that it is far too slow. There seems to be a speed cap of ~8.5 on vanilla skulks. Wall to wall jumping is easier than in previous builds, though at such a low speed it is completely meaningless to employ wall to wall jumping. The only improvement this incarnation of wall jumping made was the fact that skulks keep their speed going instead of dropping to 0-5 and then launching up to 10+ during every wall jump.
Celerity wall jumping yields no increase over base celerity speed. The base run speed is 9.1 and the max you can get even by executing multiple perfect wall jumps in a row is... 9.1. There is no gain from wall jumping over straight jump mashing when used in combination with leap or celerity.
I feel like the b220 wall jump is worthless. There is no benefit in using it. There is no speed gain. The aerial acrobatics are meaningless at 7 speed as it is easy to track a skulk in the arcing lunge from wall to wall. I would rate a top notch wall jumper's movement as effective as someone who simply walks on the ceiling. Seriously, I can find no benefit in such a low capped speed. The "wall jumping" is literally a skulk just jumping from a wall and then jumping from that wall. There is no benefit in executing them well. There is no loss of benefit in failing to execute it well. There is nothing. Every jump is just a plain jump executed irrelevant of the jumps before it or the jumps after it. In its current state, it is effectively deleted from the game.
For those BH fans out there, I'll put it another way. Imagine if your base run speed was 300 and the max speed of a perfectly executed bhop for multiple rooms put you at 330 speed. That's the new skulk wall jumping.
Anyone feel differently?
My first impression is that it is far too slow. There seems to be a speed cap of ~8.5 on vanilla skulks. Wall to wall jumping is easier than in previous builds, though at such a low speed it is completely meaningless to employ wall to wall jumping. The only improvement this incarnation of wall jumping made was the fact that skulks keep their speed going instead of dropping to 0-5 and then launching up to 10+ during every wall jump.
Celerity wall jumping yields no increase over base celerity speed. The base run speed is 9.1 and the max you can get even by executing multiple perfect wall jumps in a row is... 9.1. There is no gain from wall jumping over straight jump mashing when used in combination with leap or celerity.
I feel like the b220 wall jump is worthless. There is no benefit in using it. There is no speed gain. The aerial acrobatics are meaningless at 7 speed as it is easy to track a skulk in the arcing lunge from wall to wall. I would rate a top notch wall jumper's movement as effective as someone who simply walks on the ceiling. Seriously, I can find no benefit in such a low capped speed. The "wall jumping" is literally a skulk just jumping from a wall and then jumping from that wall. There is no benefit in executing them well. There is no loss of benefit in failing to execute it well. There is nothing. Every jump is just a plain jump executed irrelevant of the jumps before it or the jumps after it. In its current state, it is effectively deleted from the game.
For those BH fans out there, I'll put it another way. Imagine if your base run speed was 300 and the max speed of a perfectly executed bhop for multiple rooms put you at 330 speed. That's the new skulk wall jumping.
Anyone feel differently?
Comments
The numbers obviously need further tweaking but I like the concept a lot so far. Give it some time and then come back with constructive feedback if you still think it's worthless :)
The numbers obviously need further tweaking but I like the concept a lot so far. Give it some time and then come back with constructive feedback if you still think it's worthless :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I understand that it was changed completely, that the timing aspect was removed, and that it caps at ~8.5 speed. My point is that all of that is equivilent to outright deleting wall jumping. 8.5 speed is actually *slower* than a skulk running in a straight line. 8.5 speed is also not fast enough to make a wall jumping skulk harder to kill. In fact, I would wager that 8.5 speed wall jumping would be easier to shoot than simply spamming jump while holding w and mashing a/d.
Thank you for pointing out the bit about downward velocity -> forward velocity. I did not know that was part of this build. However I just climbed to the top of crevice and jumped off, wall jumping right before the ground. Total speed of ~9.5 -> 10 for about a second before it dissipated. Then I went around summit to try and find normal uses of wall jumping in which I could employ this mechanic. Basically, this downward->forward mechanic is completely irrelevant.
I'm unsure how this concept is any better than the previous concept. It has taken most all of the skill out of wall jumping and all of the benefit has been removed as well. Is it intended that wall jumping has no benefit when used with celerity and leap? Is it intended that wall jumping caps at such a low speed as to make wall jumping detrimental to the player performing it?
What warranted the complete revamp a month from release of the previous wall jumping instead of a tweaking of mechanics like we've seen in previous builds? How, specifically, is this wall jumping method any better than the previous one that had been tweaked for 2-3 months?
For anyone wondering what I mean, here is a video of me walljumping in 216. DO THIS with a speed cap...
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ij56K41WRY&feature=player_detailpage#t=203s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ij56K41WRY...tailpage#t=203s</a>
ps: Apologies if I seem anooyed, but walljump is meant to replace BHOP and your going in the wrong direction to do this.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ij56K41WRY&feature=player_detailpage#t=203s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ij56K41WRY...tailpage#t=203s</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Srsly? You want this back in the game? A skulk with this speed is teleporting over the screen from the view of a marine. You can't hit it no matter how much aiming skill you have. Just because you mastered an overpowered mechanic doesn't mean it is good for the game. The speed you could reach in 216 did feel like an exploit and was no fun to play against.
I'm all for a skillful mechanic that increases the skill-ceiling of the skulk. But it needs to be easy to do and hard to master. And it shouldn't make the skulk nearly invincible.
I'm all for a skillful mechanic that increases the skill-ceiling of the skulk. But it needs to be easy to do and hard to master. And it shouldn't make the skulk nearly invincible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No need to get all up in arms. He said with a speed cap
Hmm.. I don't really like this idea. I'm not sure what the dev's want to do with walljump but I think their going in the wrong direction. It should be useful in most situations, easy to do but the skill is when to use it.
I don't like the current implementation either. What Agiel proposes sounds really good to me.
At this rate they can afford maybe one wiffed attempt at max before it's release. Two weeks till october. 'Just throwing out iterations' time is over as far as I can tell. Even more so if the performance improves and marines have more time in their comfort zone with stable and decent FPS and hitreg.
It isn't really important. There are a select few groups of people who will know the difference between one walljump implementation and the next. Good news is, they have all already bought the game.
Well, I guess that's how the sad story goes to some extend. I think UWE is probably going to have some nasty time creating any balance past some specific skill level though. Decent marines are going to get better and better as the time goes and performance and hardware improve. Are aliens going to scale with that?
Walljump was used to dodge in long hallways or close the distance faster by gaining speed along the map until u finally engage the marines. Now u basically have to wait on the roof for incoming marines, jump (fall) down and use the gained speed to attack them.
A slightly agressive skulkplay was changed to be passive (boring, useless, totally broken etc).
After 219 i thought u r getting somewhere, i really looked forward to the changes on walljump. And now ... just a big dissapointment.
This "walljump" is no iteration, its a reset ... u might even wanna call it a complete setback.
I'd suggest strafe jumping for that since it's a fairly simple mechanic to learn (it's the Quake 3 jumping movement if people are unaware), doing that they could nerf the per jump gain from walljumping so you had to build up speed over a longer amount of time but it would be a lot easier to maintain on the ground after you had taken a few jumps. Also it would add a choice for new players who may not be able to handle both in tandem, but could pick up one fairly easily.
I think the combination of two mechanics would be a nice system, and it might placate a few of the veteran players worried about dumbing down of the movement.
I think the combination of two mechanics would be a nice system, and it might placate a few of the veteran players worried about dumbng down of the movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think there was some debate on whether something like this could be included, but it never really got any input outside the group of people who already knew bhop by heart. As far as I've seen, UWE's message has been "Don't worry, we'll bring in some movement system", but no talk about any bhop/strafejump system.
I'd suggest strafe jumping for that since it's a fairly simple mechanic to learn (it's the Quake 3 jumping movement if people are unaware), doing that they could nerf the per jump gain from walljumping so you had to build up speed over a longer amount of time but it would be a lot easier to maintain on the ground after you had taken a few jumps. Also it would add a choice for new players who may not be able to handle both in tandem, but could pick up one fairly easily.
I think the combination of two mechanics would be a nice system, and it might placate a few of the veteran players worried about dumbng down of the movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I vote for Jow being lead skulk-movement designer!
I was thinking along the lines of having the execution of wall-jump be on the ground instead of the wall and call it bunny hop : }
As for this iteration, I don't see a viable use either, and have found myself to die more often as opposed to just walking along the walls and ceilings.
I like male_fatalities video, but only with a speed cap. But to be honest, I really want the very first wall-jump build with the speed cap. There was nothing wrong with it besides the uncapped speed.
Lost for words.
Perhaps a lot of the play testers (who knows) and the general player believes it has a place, but I don't. On the upside it feels very primal and allows some extra play with movement mechanics.
To me it seems like a good bit of effort goes into the wall jumping -- more than I personally think, should. Maybe the developers have a soft spot for it -- I don't know. I'd also like to note that the wall jump is definitely not an obvious ability.
From an RTS perspective, you kind of expect unit speed to be based on an upgrade, like celerity. If you don't have celerity, you don't get a faster movement speed. I believe that's the purpose of upgrades, to draw distinctions between a player who has an advantage and one who doesn't. It makes the tech worth investing in. I admit it only applies to the skulk, however, and you could call it a class trait/ability. Also, to contradict myself (hah) you still get an advantage with celerity even if wall jump is implemented.
I hope it works out and isn't too much trouble if it stays -- but I really hope that it's worth it in the end. If it were me and I had to constantly tweak it...I definitely would be questioning why I'm even spending time on it.
Side note: does anyone see a problem with the model collision on walls/objects affecting the wall jump? You'll notice the skulk hovers on top of objects ever since they made wall walking more sticky/easier. I think there are a lot of factors that will contribute to making the wall jump work the way players want it, it's not just adjusting a couple numbers.
I honestly think being able to run up walls and jump around marines while sticking to everything provides enough room for a high degree of skill when playing skulk. I know I am constantly faking/juking when playing as skulk. I don't always keep my view on the marine at all times when I attack, either -- I have a mental picture of the terrain in my head and where I think the marine's position is when I'm flying around him. I almost play the skulk like a flight simulator, lol.
Marines can't do much movement-wise in comparison but jump around and duck and they don't get much of an advantage by moving around all crazy-like, unless it's to put more distance between him and an enemy.
EDIT:<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How could anyone ever even think this particular mechanic was a good idea?
Lost for words.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, but I would have put it even more politely. It seems easy to anger those for this mechanic.
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To me it seems like a good bit of effort goes into the wall jumping -- more than I personally think, should. Maybe the developers have a soft spot for it -- I don't know. I'd also like to note that the wall jump is definitely not an obvious ability.
...
I hope it works out and isn't too much trouble if it stays -- but I really hope that it's worth it in the end. If it were me and I had to constantly tweak it...I definitely would be questioning why I'm even spending time on it.
...
I honestly think being able to run up walls and jump around marines while sticking to everything provides enough room for a high degree of skill when playing skulk. I know I am constantly faking/juking when playing as skulk. I don't always keep my view on the marine at all times when I attack, either -- I have a mental picture of the terrain in my head and where I think the marine's position is when I'm flying around him. I almost play the skulk like a flight simulator, lol.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As marines get better their aim improves. A more experience player can track quickly moving aliens more effectively. Alien players need to be able to improve their movement to match this improvement in marines' ability to track targets.
Most competitive players seem to agree that as it stands right now, skulk movement can't keep up with good marine shooting. That is, skilled skulks lose tend to lose against equally skilled marines. So we need some kind of mechanic that makes it possible for skilled skulks to be on equal footing with skilled marines.
This is the goal of wall hop, and the reason it (or something like it) is needed.
The tricky part of all this is that the mechanic must not be too easy, or it makes it so new skulks move too effectively for the tracking ability of new marines. Ideally you want to movement of skulks, and the tracking/aiming abilities of marines to scale in exactly the same way based on player skill. It is a tough problem.
Marines can't do much movement-wise in comparison but jump around and duck and they don't get much of an advantage by moving around all crazy-like, unless it's to put more distance between him and an enemy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The marines gain skill by aiming better with positioning being a second thought (obviously still important). Aliens mostly gain skill by trying to counter act the marine's aim. Fades have shadowstep/blink. Lerks are all about pancaking and jukes. Skulks are too slow and big to do any of this against good shooters. No amount of ground faking/juking as a skulk at 7 speed is going to stop a good shooter at the competitive levels from putting the skulk down. It's simply not hard to hit skulks moving at 7 speed.
Basically, marines get better at aiming, aliens get better at moving. Skulks base speeds and sizes are far too sluggish to compete with high level shooters. In NS1 there was bunny hop or in earlier NS2 builds there was the ability for aliens to mitigate the aim of skilled marines by moving faster via their own skill mechanic -- wall jumping.
At this level, running up walls isn't skill. It's a basic mechanic and doesn't do anything against skilled shooters.
Most competitive players seem to agree that as it stands right now, skulk movement can't keep up with good marine shooting. That is, skilled skulks lose tend to lose against equally skilled marines. So we need some kind of mechanic that makes it possible for skilled skulks to be on equal footing with skilled marines.
This is the goal of wall hop, and the reason it (or something like it) is needed.
The tricky part of all this is that the mechanic must not be too easy, or it makes it so new skulks move too effectively for the tracking ability of new marines. Ideally you want to movement of skulks, and the tracking/aiming abilities of marines to scale in exactly the same way based on player skill. It is a tough problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those are really good points to make. With experience, player's aim will definitely get better making it harder win a 1 versus 1 battle as a skulk (though I thought a skulk was supposed to be naturally at a disadvantage with this case). Like you say, at the same time skulks need to improve their movement. I guess where I disagree is how skulks learn improve their movement.
The wall-jump only gives a small movement speed increase for the model but nothing more no matter how well a player uses it. I think skulk gameplay will improve with experience and map familiarity. A more experienced skulk, has the advantage at close range because he can traverse the environment quickly and easily. He can hide in ambush areas. He can use darkness to his advantage. I just believe there are other factors that can be taken advantage of with an experienced player playing skulk. I don't believe he necessarily needs the wall jump mechanic. That's my argument.
Having wall-jump doesn't detract from skulk play in any way, so that's why I don't mind even if it does get implemented. I just see a lot of debate about constantly tweaking it. In the end, a certain group of people who are passionate about wall-jump are going to have a problem with the way it's implemented.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens mostly gain skill by trying to counter act the marine's aim.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is something I definitely believe and I think it can be done without wall-jumping, though wall-jumping can make it easier. This is why I don't mind if it does get implemented. When a skulk gets leap, he becomes pretty unpredictable and celerity give an even harder target to hit. If the concern is gameplay before any upgrades, I think a skulk is just naturally at a disadvantage when he charges head-on. That's whats nice about all the nooks, crannys, props, and wallwalking -- it really compensates for melee. Though, now I'm talking about an ambushing attack -- and you should be attacking first without being seen when ambushing. I can definitely get two bites in when a marines doesn't know I'm there. *shrug*
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1 there was bunny hop<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh I know...I wasn't one of those players who skipped and airstrafed around though. I won fights with nice team-coordinated attacks. I saved that crazy movement for scoutzknives or leetskeet.
By the way Charlie, leetskeet is fun AND awesome. It's not just about shooting flying people...it's about being the ones to narrowly survive the launch, then carefully making your way to AWP-only armed team (who is restricted in a shooting room) and try to close distance with a knife. It was some of the most intense fights I've ever played in CS. Try it with people who enjoy it.
Lost for words.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
But I have to say it's a bit sad to travel the map with nothing else to do than pressing W key.
One of the main purposes of a skill based movement system (BH, wall jumping, strafe jumping, etc) is to add a skill component into the movement. Leap does not take much skill to use as you literally press right mouse button and go flying. People cap out on their effective leap skills very quickly while aiming constantly improves. That's why you need a powerful, but capped movement system that requires skill to execute.
(HUGE HYPOTHETICAL) I think the current system may be alright if they brought back b219's speed caps of 12 for base skulk, 14 for celerity instead of the current 8.5. It may even be overpowered in that state because this new version of wall jump is so easy to do and you never drop down to 0 speed. I'd like to see a speed cap increased, though. Something like 10 or 11 vanilla skulk and 12 or 13 celerity skulk would be alright as well. I don't know if this would be ok, but I'd like to try it. The current version is completely worthless, though.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Skulk.kWallJumpMaxSpeed = 9<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
It makes skulk more playable, the problem is the ease of use. There's no real skill involved in the current system so it will have to be very limited in effectiveness. You can't have an easy mechanic that allows skulks to equate their movement to a good shooter's aim. A slow wall jump is useless for its intended purpose, though. The current wall jump seems like a step backward in all respects to the previous incarnations of wall jump.
Also, you get most of your speed off the first jump where there is also no real benefit for being able to chain multiple jumps together. It's a simple "jump off a wall, go this max speed" type of mechanic. Pretty silly stuff.