Remember when frenzy was available as an upgrade? You could easily kill 5 marines in a room with that upgrade, coupled with the poor hit registration at the time.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1981191:date=Sep 21 2012, 05:36 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Sep 21 2012, 05:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People crying about OP fades in the current builds have never had to deal with Frenzy Fades upgraded to lvl 3 dmg >.><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Mwuahaha, good times >:D
<!--quoteo(post=1981185:date=Sep 21 2012, 07:43 AM:name=Know pain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Know pain @ Sep 21 2012, 07:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981185"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So when will you remove the half way down doors in Sub on the remade edited ns_veil?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those were added to prevent bile bombing the tech point from the vent above that red window. A gorge could clean up the whole marine base from there if they didn't have jetpacks.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1981571:date=Sep 21 2012, 05:59 PM:name=Onii-chan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Onii-chan @ Sep 21 2012, 05:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981571"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Those were added to prevent bile bombing the tech point from the vent above that red window. A gorge could clean up the whole marine base from there if they didn't have jetpacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh the things we have to do because they took out handgrenades..
<!--quoteo(post=1981571:date=Sep 21 2012, 02:59 PM:name=Onii-chan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Onii-chan @ Sep 21 2012, 02:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981571"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Those were added to prevent bile bombing the tech point from the vent above that red window. A gorge could clean up the whole marine base from there if they didn't have jetpacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um duh, thats why it's there. If marines don't like bile bomb then too freaking bad, marines don't like fades will UW remove them too? <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--> I cannot believe Unknown Worlds put those there just cause marines were complaining about it<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->. Marines don't start there, so if they have it then they can get jet packs and clear the gorges out or get gls and kill them.
I don't like exo's as an alien so could Unknown Worlds place half down doors everywhere so it restricts thier movement?
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
Guys, I put them because of the bilebomb issues. If we want to have a whole thread about this topic, I'm down to hear it, but it's not a big conspiracy. Discuss it, and I'll see where the consensus opinion seems to be on it.
<!--quoteo(post=1981191:date=Sep 21 2012, 05:36 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Sep 21 2012, 05:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People crying about OP fades in the current builds have never had to deal with Frenzy Fades upgraded to lvl 3 dmg >.><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I miss the absurd 50:2 KDs as a frenzy fade back when I was one of the few people getting decent performance. :>
<!--quoteo(post=1981671:date=Sep 21 2012, 10:32 PM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ Sep 21 2012, 10:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981671"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Guys, I put them because of the bilebomb issues. If we want to have a whole thread about this topic, I'm down to hear it, but it's not a big conspiracy. Discuss it, and I'll see where the consensus opinion seems to be on it.
Personally, I could go either way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't change a single part of the map cause marines don't like the bilebomb coming out of there. Thats not their starting location and just like everything else they have to fight for it. Veil is an NS1 map brought to NS2 and has a lot of problems and issues that aliens and marines didn't have in NS1. In nano grid marines could weld those vents shut but also aliens could egg ontop and not get shot or stuck.
Marines wanna complain that bilebomb would destroy the sub tech point, well yeah thats what bilebomb is for. Gorges can arc bilebomb and bullets go straight, so get a gl and arc them too. Last time I checked marines only need 1 tech point for a gl.
It comes down to marines don't like that vent cause it's one of the few they can't climb a wall or jump right into.
<!--quoteo(post=1981670:date=Sep 22 2012, 12:30 AM:name=Know pain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Know pain @ Sep 22 2012, 12:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981670"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Um duh, thats why it's there. If marines don't like bile bomb then too freaking bad, marines don't like fades will UW remove them too? <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--> I cannot believe Unknown Worlds put those there just cause marines were complaining about it<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->. Marines don't start there, so if they have it then they can get jet packs and clear the gorges out or get gls and kill them.
I don't like exo's as an alien so could Unknown Worlds place half down doors everywhere so it restricts thier movement?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
even though i might bring bad news for u, but fmpone is not a dev as far as i know... and another point i have to make is, there are no marines only player. It wasnt the marine side complaining about certain issues of the map, the player that played both sides complained about it. The changes have to be adjusted slightly but certainly not removed.
<!--quoteo(post=1981686:date=Sep 22 2012, 10:52 AM:name=Know pain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Know pain @ Sep 22 2012, 10:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't change a single part of the map cause marines don't like the bilebomb coming out of there. Thats not their starting location and just like everything else they have to fight for it. Veil is an NS1 map brought to NS2 and has a lot of problems and issues that aliens and marines didn't have in NS1. In nano grid marines could weld those vents shut but also aliens could egg ontop and not get shot or stuck.
Marines wanna complain that bilebomb would destroy the sub tech point, well yeah thats what bilebomb is for. Gorges can arc bilebomb and bullets go straight, so get a gl and arc them too. Last time I checked marines only need 1 tech point for a gl.
It comes down to marines don't like that vent cause it's one of the few they can't climb a wall or jump right into.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bile bombing a base or hive location from high vents that are only accessible via JPs has always been a big no-no in both NS1 and NS2 map balance.
in NS1 you could atleast build your base offset from the vent, so it couldnt be bilebombed, aka every subsector PG always was at the top of the stairs from overlook. NS2 you can bilebomb that one structure called a powernode which basically screws the entire base, that and the cc has to be in the middle with techpoints.
<!--quoteo(post=1981811:date=Sep 22 2012, 11:29 AM:name=Kasperle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kasperle @ Sep 22 2012, 11:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981811"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It wasnt the marine side complaining about certain issues of the map, the player that played both sides complained about it. The changes have to be adjusted slightly but certainly not removed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? Why would aliens complain about bilebombing from that vent, it's an advantage for them. Since onos get taken out so easily, it's left for the gorges to be the real siege firepower in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1981816:date=Sep 22 2012, 12:09 PM:name=Onii-chan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Onii-chan @ Sep 22 2012, 12:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981816"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bile bombing a base or hive location from high vents that are only accessible via JPs has always been a big no-no in both NS1 and NS2 map balance.
Deal with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's called a gl, it's called "Bile Bomb" i.e. bomb. What do you do with bombs? You drop them. If you think that gorges are just supposed to run and and bile bomb everything then lets ignore NS2 and look for NS2 combat, with players just running in and shooting the other team.
Like I have said before Sub in Veil is not their starting location, it's not their first tech point. If they don't want gorges bile bombing then get gls or jet packs (since marines have sub they can now get jetpacks with the proto lab).
<!--quoteo(post=1981893:date=Sep 23 2012, 04:45 AM:name=Know pain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Know pain @ Sep 23 2012, 04:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981893"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really? Why would aliens complain about bilebombing from that vent, it's an advantage for them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because some people don't like abusing imbalances on maps to basically use an instant "win" button. I reported this issue right after single-handedly clearing the CC from SubSector in a few games.
<!--quoteo(post=1981893:date=Sep 23 2012, 04:45 AM:name=Know pain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Know pain @ Sep 23 2012, 04:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981893"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since onos get taken out so easily, it's left for the gorges to be the real siege firepower in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The Onos is doing much better since it got its health doubled, feels more like the NS1 Onos, he was pretty fragile without Gorge support as well. An Onos+Gorge can actually take an Exo if he doesn't have a ton of marines or 2 other Exos for support.
<!--quoteo(post=1981893:date=Sep 23 2012, 04:45 AM:name=Know pain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Know pain @ Sep 23 2012, 04:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981893"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's called a gl, it's called "Bile Bomb" i.e. bomb. What do you do with bombs? You drop them. If you think that gorges are just supposed to run and and bile bomb everything then lets ignore NS2 and look for NS2 combat, with players just running in and shooting the other team.
Like I have said before Sub in Veil is not their starting location, it's not their first tech point. If they don't want gorges bile bombing then get gls or jet packs (since marines have sub they can now get jetpacks with the proto lab).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It might not be the marine start, but it effectively makes taking SubSector as expansion complete suicide. Plus, sometimes marines are forced to take it if the aliens fast-expand and get the other 2. If the marines get their second base is at the tech point is SubSector, then by the time they have JPs or GLs, the CC and base at that tech point is gonna be up in smoke due to gorges in that vent.
And yes, gorges can easily use bile bomb from the ground while slowly advancing with the help of Fades, Skulks, perhaps an Onos as shield, and slowly bilebomb the structures without depending on unreachable vents. You know, teamwork!
<!--quoteo(post=1981897:date=Sep 22 2012, 07:06 PM:name=Onii-chan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Onii-chan @ Sep 22 2012, 07:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981897"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because some people don't like abusing imbalances on maps to basically use an instant "win" button. I reported this issue right after single-handedly clearing the CC from SubSector in a few games.
The Onos is doing much better since it got its health doubled, feels more like the NS1 Onos, he was pretty fragile without Gorge support as well. An Onos+Gorge can actually take an Exo if he doesn't have a ton of marines or 2 other Exos for support.
It might not be the marine start, but it effectively makes taking SubSector as expansion complete suicide. Plus, sometimes marines are forced to take it if the aliens fast-expand and get the other 2. If the marines get their second base is at the tech point is SubSector, then by the time they have JPs or GLs, the CC and base at that tech point is gonna be up in smoke due to gorges in that vent.
And yes, gorges can easily use bile bomb from the ground while slowly advancing with the help of Fades, Skulks, perhaps an Onos as shield, and slowly bilebomb the structures without depending on unreachable vents. You know, teamwork!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On point 1: It's not an imbalance it's part of the map, same thing happend in NS1. It you wanna blame someone then blame whoever thought it was a good idea to bring a NS1 map to NS2.
On point 2: "The Onos is doing much better since it got its health doubled, feels more like the NS1 Onos, he was pretty fragile without Gorge support as well. An Onos+Gorge can actually take an Exo if he doesn't have a ton of marines or 2 other Exos for support." "perhaps an Onos as shield" Say what?
On point 3: what if they don't fast expand, and marines get nano aswell? There is no gorges with skulks , lerks, fades and no onos. This is not a NS2 map and too many places where aliens can't go and marines can and not enough res nodes. Another point don't complain that aliens have an advantage cause they had the same one in NS1.
"Because some people don't like abusing imbalances on maps to basically use an instant "win" button."
Why can marines run up walls and get into vent's? In NS1 marines could get into vent but required teamwork meaing 2 or more playrs, here let m run up a wall or jumb on this then jump on that and I'm in.
The doors benefit aliens as well because it breaks up the room from being an endless spawn camp form every conceivable angle. Marines either have to get their backs against the power-node or go through system waypointing into the east side of subsector where aliens can atleast potentially ambush from the vents.
<!--quoteo(post=1981908:date=Sep 22 2012, 07:53 PM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Sep 22 2012, 07:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981908"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The doors benefit aliens as well because it breaks up the room from being an endless spawn camp form every conceivable angle. Marines either have to get their backs against the power-node or go through system waypointing into the east side of subsector where aliens can atleast potentially ambush from the vents.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
eh? I have not played a game yet where the half down doors were beneficial to the aliens. Every game I have played by the time the aliens can go for sub theres already gls or jet packs kill everything in that vent.
Every game I play on that map as marine and I'm not camping in vents or cutting through cyst chains I tell the comannder we are fine until they get a second hive. Once they do we need gls and I decimate the gorges bile bombing from the vent's. Then I get swear words from the players who I taught how to bile from the vents.
I do not like this map at all. the door's are only a minor annoyance compared to the rest of the map. It's a nicely done update of an old-school NS1 map, but under NS2's game condition's it is not a fun map at all to play.
<!--quoteo(post=1982096:date=Sep 23 2012, 10:37 AM:name=Schleppy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schleppy @ Sep 23 2012, 10:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1982096"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do not like this map at all. the door's are only a minor annoyance compared to the rest of the map. It's a nicely done update of an old-school NS1 map, but under NS2's game condition's it is not a fun map at all to play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im not going to tell you that you cant have an opinion but you realize that that is all you wrote there.
Do you have any practical, experiential advice for the map creator? Every map in the game has problems and benefits to either side. Thats part if what makes the game fun. Obvious lopsided imbalances like the ability for one gorge to take out an entire techpoint is clearly wrong. Another option would be to add crates enabling marines to climb into the vent. Either way the problem is solved.
The doors are a good addition to the map. The make the tech point usable by the marines and at the same time makes spawn camping the hive harder. I think the simple addition of a couple of doors has done wonders for the tech location balance.
Now, If the Cargo hive area could be less JP-friendly. It is way too big -> even leap skulks have a really hard time taking down jetpackers. Also, one part of this problem is the Y-junction, which favours the marines strongly. It is simple to set up a forward base in Y-junction and pressure the aliens from there. Then you just research jetpacks and seal the deal.
<!--quoteo(post=1982132:date=Sep 23 2012, 03:46 PM:name=bEEb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bEEb @ Sep 23 2012, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1982132"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Im not going to tell you that you cant have an opinion but you realize that that is all you wrote there.
Do you have any practical, experiential advice for the map creator? Every map in the game has problems and benefits to either side. Thats part if what makes the game fun. Obvious lopsided imbalances like the ability for one gorge to take out an entire techpoint is clearly wrong. Another option would be to add crates enabling marines to climb into the vent. Either way the problem is solved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure
-Pipeline and Sub are to far apart, aliens don't have hive teleportation anymore like they did in NS1 so it takes them a significant time to travel from one side to the other.
-Nano should have 1 RT node and 1 tech point. That sticks with the "5 tech point" theme of NS2 and places them in strategically neutral area's. (marine start, cargo and double would be close to in a line and have 1 tech point on either side) This also helps to cut down on the need to travel from one side of the map to another to try and work on getting that 3'rd hive location for aliens.
-The infamous ladder needs to just go away and something else replaces it.
-Marine start needs a vent aliens can use, maybe to get into the back walkway?.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1981811:date=Sep 22 2012, 07:29 PM:name=Kasperle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kasperle @ Sep 22 2012, 07:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981811"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->even though i might bring bad news for u, but fmpone is not a dev as far as i know...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He may or may not be considered a dev, but considering he is the PERSON WHO MADE NS2_VEIL, whether he is officially a dev or not doesn't really matter. He will however look at the map if it requires looking at....
-Pipeline and Sub are to far apart, aliens don't have hive teleportation anymore like they did in NS1 so it takes them a significant time to travel from one side to the other.
-Nano should have 1 RT node and 1 tech point. That sticks with the "5 tech point" theme of NS2 and places them in strategically neutral area's. (marine start, cargo and double would be close to in a line and have 1 tech point on either side) This also helps to cut down on the need to travel from one side of the map to another to try and work on getting that 3'rd hive location for aliens.
-The infamous ladder needs to just go away and something else replaces it.
-Marine start needs a vent aliens can use, maybe to get into the back walkway?.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1 - So more awareness is needed on the location of the marine team. If the whole marine team is in Sub, and the whole Alien team is in Pipeline, guess who ###### up? Clue, it's not the marines. If marines are pushing towards the hive, aliens should already be on route to stop them. It's not like they don't get enough warning....
2 - 4TP is the way to go. Sure there will be some 5TP maps, but the constant fighting and battling to get the upgrades on a 4TP map really brings back the urgent constant confrontations from NS1. I recommend 4TP maps in my pre-map thread. I like that you have invented a theme for NS2, but in the mapping guidelines they propose an even number of 5 and 6TP maps. The fact is when all the maps were started, no-one, not even UWE knew how the game was going to turn out and need to be balanced. It turns out 4TP is ideal, just as it was in NS1, and 6TP is a complete waste of time...
3 - OK, but what? At least make a suggestion..
4 - A vent in Marine Start? HAHA. Do you not remember the issues with the MS vents in NS1? Do you not remember the problems caused by Marines starting in Sub Access on Summit when they first introduced Random Spawns, problems caused specifically by having vents in the marine spawn.
<!--quoteo(post=1983096:date=Sep 25 2012, 07:48 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Sep 25 2012, 07:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983096"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1 - So more awareness is needed on the location of the marine team. If the whole marine team is in Sub, and the whole Alien team is in Pipeline, guess who ###### up? Clue, it's not the marines. If marines are pushing towards the hive, aliens should already be on route to stop them. It's not like they don't get enough warning....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Where did I insinuate the entire team would be in one area? I'm more like referencing when say the marines have pipeline locked down and have a phase at overlook and are attacking sub. They can easily travel back and forth, it takes aliens FOREVER to travel from one side of the map to another.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2 - 4TP is the way to go. Sure there will be some 5TP maps, but the constant fighting and battling to get the upgrades on a 4TP map really brings back the urgent constant confrontations from NS1. I recommend 4TP maps in my pre-map thread. I like that you have invented a theme for NS2, but in the mapping guidelines they propose an even number of 5 and 6TP maps. The fact is when all the maps were started, no-one, not even UWE knew how the game was going to turn out and need to be balanced. It turns out 4TP is ideal, just as it was in NS1, and 6TP is a complete waste of time...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Your opinion, I stated mine, you gave yours, fair enough. I feel 4 TP's on the size map's we currently have means the aliens have to get hive teleport, and we are feature-locked-down for right now. If UWE decided to add alien teleporting back into the game, I'm actually more then fine with it's current layout.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3 - OK, but what? At least make a suggestion..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Stairs, a ramp, something, geez, I didn't think I had to spell everything out here.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4 - A vent in Marine Start? HAHA. Do you not remember the issues with the MS vents in NS1? Do you not remember the problems caused by Marines starting in Sub Access on Summit when they first introduced Random Spawns, problems caused specifically by having vents in the marine spawn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's harder to parasite in NS2 then NS1, marines can get up in the vent and lay mines, if a skulk wants to parasite a mine 20-some times until mine #1 is gone, remember, he has 2 more he could lay there, the time it takes is res well spent if 1 skulk wants to sit in there.
We can have our own opinions, for me personally however I'm looking for the disconnect button typically when this map comes up. Maybe I'm the only one but I doubt it.
Comments
Remember when frenzy was available as an upgrade? You could easily kill 5 marines in a room with that upgrade, coupled with the poor hit registration at the time.
Edit: As a skulk.
Mwuahaha, good times >:D
Those were added to prevent bile bombing the tech point from the vent above that red window.
A gorge could clean up the whole marine base from there if they didn't have jetpacks.
A gorge could clean up the whole marine base from there if they didn't have jetpacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh the things we have to do because they took out handgrenades..
A gorge could clean up the whole marine base from there if they didn't have jetpacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um duh, thats why it's there. If marines don't like bile bomb then too freaking bad, marines don't like fades will UW remove them too? <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--> I cannot believe Unknown Worlds put those there just cause marines were complaining about it<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->. Marines don't start there, so if they have it then they can get jet packs and clear the gorges out or get gls and kill them.
I don't like exo's as an alien so could Unknown Worlds place half down doors everywhere so it restricts thier movement?
Personally, I could go either way.
I miss the absurd 50:2 KDs as a frenzy fade back when I was one of the few people getting decent performance. :>
Personally, I could go either way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't change a single part of the map cause marines don't like the bilebomb coming out of there. Thats not their starting location and just like everything else they have to fight for it. Veil is an NS1 map brought to NS2 and has a lot of problems and issues that aliens and marines didn't have in NS1. In nano grid marines could weld those vents shut but also aliens could egg ontop and not get shot or stuck.
Marines wanna complain that bilebomb would destroy the sub tech point, well yeah thats what bilebomb is for. Gorges can arc bilebomb and bullets go straight, so get a gl and arc them too. Last time I checked marines only need 1 tech point for a gl.
It comes down to marines don't like that vent cause it's one of the few they can't climb a wall or jump right into.
I don't like exo's as an alien so could Unknown Worlds place half down doors everywhere so it restricts thier movement?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
even though i might bring bad news for u, but fmpone is not a dev as far as i know... and another point i have to make is, there are no marines only player. It wasnt the marine side complaining about certain issues of the map, the player that played both sides complained about it. The changes have to be adjusted slightly but certainly not removed.
Marines wanna complain that bilebomb would destroy the sub tech point, well yeah thats what bilebomb is for. Gorges can arc bilebomb and bullets go straight, so get a gl and arc them too. Last time I checked marines only need 1 tech point for a gl.
It comes down to marines don't like that vent cause it's one of the few they can't climb a wall or jump right into.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bile bombing a base or hive location from high vents that are only accessible via JPs has always been a big no-no in both NS1 and NS2 map balance.
Deal with it.
Really? Why would aliens complain about bilebombing from that vent, it's an advantage for them. Since onos get taken out so easily, it's left for the gorges to be the real siege firepower in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1981816:date=Sep 22 2012, 12:09 PM:name=Onii-chan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Onii-chan @ Sep 22 2012, 12:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981816"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bile bombing a base or hive location from high vents that are only accessible via JPs has always been a big no-no in both NS1 and NS2 map balance.
Deal with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's called a gl, it's called "Bile Bomb" i.e. bomb. What do you do with bombs? You drop them. If you think that gorges are just supposed to run and and bile bomb everything then lets ignore NS2 and look for NS2 combat, with players just running in and shooting the other team.
Like I have said before Sub in Veil is not their starting location, it's not their first tech point. If they don't want gorges bile bombing then get gls or jet packs (since marines have sub they can now get jetpacks with the proto lab).
Because some people don't like abusing imbalances on maps to basically use an instant "win" button.
I reported this issue right after single-handedly clearing the CC from SubSector in a few games.
<!--quoteo(post=1981893:date=Sep 23 2012, 04:45 AM:name=Know pain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Know pain @ Sep 23 2012, 04:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981893"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since onos get taken out so easily, it's left for the gorges to be the real siege firepower in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Onos is doing much better since it got its health doubled, feels more like the NS1 Onos, he was pretty fragile without Gorge support as well.
An Onos+Gorge can actually take an Exo if he doesn't have a ton of marines or 2 other Exos for support.
<!--quoteo(post=1981893:date=Sep 23 2012, 04:45 AM:name=Know pain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Know pain @ Sep 23 2012, 04:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981893"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's called a gl, it's called "Bile Bomb" i.e. bomb. What do you do with bombs? You drop them. If you think that gorges are just supposed to run and and bile bomb everything then lets ignore NS2 and look for NS2 combat, with players just running in and shooting the other team.
Like I have said before Sub in Veil is not their starting location, it's not their first tech point. If they don't want gorges bile bombing then get gls or jet packs (since marines have sub they can now get jetpacks with the proto lab).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It might not be the marine start, but it effectively makes taking SubSector as expansion complete suicide.
Plus, sometimes marines are forced to take it if the aliens fast-expand and get the other 2.
If the marines get their second base is at the tech point is SubSector, then by the time they have JPs or GLs, the CC and base at that tech point is gonna be up in smoke due to gorges in that vent.
And yes, gorges can easily use bile bomb from the ground while slowly advancing with the help of Fades, Skulks, perhaps an Onos as shield, and slowly bilebomb the structures without depending on unreachable vents. You know, teamwork!
I reported this issue right after single-handedly clearing the CC from SubSector in a few games.
The Onos is doing much better since it got its health doubled, feels more like the NS1 Onos, he was pretty fragile without Gorge support as well.
An Onos+Gorge can actually take an Exo if he doesn't have a ton of marines or 2 other Exos for support.
It might not be the marine start, but it effectively makes taking SubSector as expansion complete suicide.
Plus, sometimes marines are forced to take it if the aliens fast-expand and get the other 2.
If the marines get their second base is at the tech point is SubSector, then by the time they have JPs or GLs, the CC and base at that tech point is gonna be up in smoke due to gorges in that vent.
And yes, gorges can easily use bile bomb from the ground while slowly advancing with the help of Fades, Skulks, perhaps an Onos as shield, and slowly bilebomb the structures without depending on unreachable vents. You know, teamwork!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On point 1: It's not an imbalance it's part of the map, same thing happend in NS1. It you wanna blame someone then blame whoever thought it was a good idea to bring a NS1 map to NS2.
On point 2: "The Onos is doing much better since it got its health doubled, feels more like the NS1 Onos, he was pretty fragile without Gorge support as well.
An Onos+Gorge can actually take an Exo if he doesn't have a ton of marines or 2 other Exos for support." "perhaps an Onos as shield"
Say what?
On point 3: what if they don't fast expand, and marines get nano aswell? There is no gorges with skulks , lerks, fades and no onos. This is not a NS2 map and too many places where aliens can't go and marines can and not enough res nodes. Another point don't complain that aliens have an advantage cause they had the same one in NS1.
"Because some people don't like abusing imbalances on maps to basically use an instant "win" button."
Why can marines run up walls and get into vent's? In NS1 marines could get into vent but required teamwork meaing 2 or more playrs, here let m run up a wall or jumb on this then jump on that and I'm in.
eh? I have not played a game yet where the half down doors were beneficial to the aliens. Every game I have played by the time the aliens can go for sub theres already gls or jet packs kill everything in that vent.
Every game I play on that map as marine and I'm not camping in vents or cutting through cyst chains I tell the comannder we are fine until they get a second hive. Once they do we need gls and I decimate the gorges bile bombing from the vent's. Then I get swear words from the players who I taught how to bile from the vents.
Im not going to tell you that you cant have an opinion but you realize that that is all you wrote there.
Do you have any practical, experiential advice for the map creator? Every map in the game has problems and benefits to either side. Thats part if what makes the game fun. Obvious lopsided imbalances like the ability for one gorge to take out an entire techpoint is clearly wrong. Another option would be to add crates enabling marines to climb into the vent. Either way the problem is solved.
Now, If the Cargo hive area could be less JP-friendly. It is way too big -> even leap skulks have a really hard time taking down jetpackers. Also, one part of this problem is the Y-junction, which favours the marines strongly. It is simple to set up a forward base in Y-junction and pressure the aliens from there. Then you just research jetpacks and seal the deal.
Do you have any practical, experiential advice for the map creator? Every map in the game has problems and benefits to either side. Thats part if what makes the game fun. Obvious lopsided imbalances like the ability for one gorge to take out an entire techpoint is clearly wrong. Another option would be to add crates enabling marines to climb into the vent. Either way the problem is solved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure
-Pipeline and Sub are to far apart, aliens don't have hive teleportation anymore like they did in NS1 so it takes them a significant time to travel from one side to the other.
-Nano should have 1 RT node and 1 tech point. That sticks with the "5 tech point" theme of NS2 and places them in strategically neutral area's. (marine start, cargo and double would be close to in a line and have 1 tech point on either side) This also helps to cut down on the need to travel from one side of the map to another to try and work on getting that 3'rd hive location for aliens.
-The infamous ladder needs to just go away and something else replaces it.
-Marine start needs a vent aliens can use, maybe to get into the back walkway?.
He may or may not be considered a dev, but considering he is the PERSON WHO MADE NS2_VEIL, whether he is officially a dev or not doesn't really matter. He will however look at the map if it requires looking at....
<!--quoteo(post=1983055:date=Sep 25 2012, 10:57 PM:name=Schleppy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schleppy @ Sep 25 2012, 10:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983055"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure
-Pipeline and Sub are to far apart, aliens don't have hive teleportation anymore like they did in NS1 so it takes them a significant time to travel from one side to the other.
-Nano should have 1 RT node and 1 tech point. That sticks with the "5 tech point" theme of NS2 and places them in strategically neutral area's. (marine start, cargo and double would be close to in a line and have 1 tech point on either side) This also helps to cut down on the need to travel from one side of the map to another to try and work on getting that 3'rd hive location for aliens.
-The infamous ladder needs to just go away and something else replaces it.
-Marine start needs a vent aliens can use, maybe to get into the back walkway?.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1 - So more awareness is needed on the location of the marine team. If the whole marine team is in Sub, and the whole Alien team is in Pipeline, guess who ###### up? Clue, it's not the marines. If marines are pushing towards the hive, aliens should already be on route to stop them. It's not like they don't get enough warning....
2 - 4TP is the way to go. Sure there will be some 5TP maps, but the constant fighting and battling to get the upgrades on a 4TP map really brings back the urgent constant confrontations from NS1. I recommend 4TP maps in my pre-map thread. I like that you have invented a theme for NS2, but in the mapping guidelines they propose an even number of 5 and 6TP maps. The fact is when all the maps were started, no-one, not even UWE knew how the game was going to turn out and need to be balanced. It turns out 4TP is ideal, just as it was in NS1, and 6TP is a complete waste of time...
3 - OK, but what? At least make a suggestion..
4 - A vent in Marine Start? HAHA. Do you not remember the issues with the MS vents in NS1? Do you not remember the problems caused by Marines starting in Sub Access on Summit when they first introduced Random Spawns, problems caused specifically by having vents in the marine spawn.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2 - 4TP is the way to go. Sure there will be some 5TP maps, but the constant fighting and battling to get the upgrades on a 4TP map really brings back the urgent constant confrontations from NS1. I recommend 4TP maps in my pre-map thread. I like that you have invented a theme for NS2, but in the mapping guidelines they propose an even number of 5 and 6TP maps. The fact is when all the maps were started, no-one, not even UWE knew how the game was going to turn out and need to be balanced. It turns out 4TP is ideal, just as it was in NS1, and 6TP is a complete waste of time...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Your opinion, I stated mine, you gave yours, fair enough. I feel 4 TP's on the size map's we currently have means the aliens have to get hive teleport, and we are feature-locked-down for right now. If UWE decided to add alien teleporting back into the game, I'm actually more then fine with it's current layout.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3 - OK, but what? At least make a suggestion..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Stairs, a ramp, something, geez, I didn't think I had to spell everything out here.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4 - A vent in Marine Start? HAHA. Do you not remember the issues with the MS vents in NS1? Do you not remember the problems caused by Marines starting in Sub Access on Summit when they first introduced Random Spawns, problems caused specifically by having vents in the marine spawn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's harder to parasite in NS2 then NS1, marines can get up in the vent and lay mines, if a skulk wants to parasite a mine 20-some times until mine #1 is gone, remember, he has 2 more he could lay there, the time it takes is res well spent if 1 skulk wants to sit in there.
We can have our own opinions, for me personally however I'm looking for the disconnect button typically when this map comes up. Maybe I'm the only one but I doubt it.