Parasite Hit-Reg

Wilson

I've been testing the parasite hit-reg recently and there seems to be some inconsistency with it. I don't know if it's just a problem with parasite, but it's much easier to notice if you miss a parasite than if you miss 1 lmg bullet. I also think on some occasions the animation can be deceiving. The tongue moves really slowly so it can often feel like the parasite was shot a few moments later than it actually was. I think speeding up the animation would help to make it feel more responsive.

Here are some screenshots from a quick test I done. I recorded using fraps at 60fps and took a snapshot of the frame when I clicked the mouse (first frame energy has decreased). All of these are misses on a live server:

<img src="http://i.imgur.com/65qun.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><img src="http://i.imgur.com/dAu3x.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><img src="http://i.imgur.com/enek3.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

<img src="http://i.imgur.com/VGg09.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><img src="http://i.imgur.com/G0GeA.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><img src="http://i.imgur.com/mFsCI.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />


Now here are some from me testing on a local, again all of these are misses:

<img src="http://i.imgur.com/NyhSj.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><img src="http://i.imgur.com/Ca2S1.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><img src="http://i.imgur.com/Pfy04.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />


<img src="http://i.imgur.com/oFYDw.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><a href="http://i.imgur.com/Ha5wT.jpg" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/Ha5wT.jpg</a>

Wilson

Now here are some screenshots with the collision console command turned on, again all of these shots miss:

<img src="http://i.imgur.com/nV2Vu.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><img src="http://i.imgur.com/kHXpc.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><img src="http://i.imgur.com/9bCqB.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

<img src="http://i.imgur.com/Xr8Fy.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><img src="http://i.imgur.com/T94Tz.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />


As you can see in a few images above, the marines also have some weird stuff going on with their upper arms. If you parasite these hitboxes it counts as hit even though you are nowhere near the model. These images are all hits:

<img src="http://i.imgur.com/y41se.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><img src="http://i.imgur.com/qgX16.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><img src="http://i.imgur.com/2LELQ.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

<img src="http://i.imgur.com/A4yHC.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />


Here is a screenshot of what it looks like in the viewer:

<img src="http://i.imgur.com/jUPNY.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

IronHorse

Nice work! Passing this along..
I too just asked yesterday if it was lag compensated because of the inconsistency i've had with it in the past. I can nail it almost every time now, but i feel like i'm intentionally delaying it or snap shotting it like a Q2 railgun, accounting for networking issues.

Also: do you play with those visuals? eewww.. lol

Yuuki

Good job Wilson. Seems like the Humerus has gone rogue.

Imbalanxd

I feel like whenever I try and parasite a marine while my mouse is moving it almost always misses. When I wait for them to line up with my crosshair, however, it seems to hit.

I can't be sure that I wasn't just missing though.

NeoRussia

same goes for gorge spit. Gorge spit has this exact problem but it's even worse because the spit projectile is huge and clips walls. Also spawned models are not accurate, I've heard. But this still happens against players.

IeptBarakat

The hitboxes and collision is all weird. Unfinished structures have the same boxes as the finished models which is just wrong.

Wilson

<!--quoteo(post=1982531:date=Sep 24 2012, 09:24 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 24 2012, 09:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1982531"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I feel like whenever I try and parasite a marine while my mouse is moving it almost always misses. When I wait for them to line up with my crosshair, however, it seems to hit.

I can't be sure that I wasn't just missing though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Yeah, this was what I was trying to investigate. I don't know if it is to do with the hitboxes being too small or if it's something else. It often feels like you need to wait for a second before firing for the game to catch up.

I do feel like it's possible for the hitboxes to be too accurate to the model. In the heat of battle you aren't aiming for individual fingers etc. and sometimes accurate hitboxes can actually cause inconsistencies to be perceived by the players. Perhaps it is better if the hitbox is slightly bigger than the model to compensate for those edge cases where you are sure you hit the player model.

For the buildings however having a big hitbox often causes issues because players will try to shoot other players standing near them and then hit the building instead. These are probably known but since it's related here are a few of the buildings that have weird hitboxes:


<img src="http://i.imgur.com/90vug.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><img src="http://i.imgur.com/Ujgk3.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><img src="http://i.imgur.com/Urj0p.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

<img src="http://i.imgur.com/KM0yB.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><img src="http://i.imgur.com/nhcRw.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><img src="http://i.imgur.com/IYw2b.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

<img src="http://i.imgur.com/4ojVQ.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

rantology

There is definitely something wrong with parasite, always has been.. nice work Wilson. It's probably the animation like you said but the marine hitbox also looks fishy.

The hitboxes in general could use some refinement... the box on the marine Extractor in specific is pretty rage inducing sometimes.

Runteh

I am impressed by the hitboxes more than disappointed. The ones in CS 1.6 used to be massive oblongs, it seems modern games have become a lot tighter now and true to the model. Being more accurate to the model however has actually made the aiming aspect a lot more refined, basically harder.

Parasite is used barely enough imo, and whilst people will say 'don't dumb down this game' I think it could do with becoming a bit more 'shotgun' like, with perhaps 3 hits per shot with a very low spread.

I just don't know, but there is something weird about parasite when you shoot it. Maybe it is just the animation, but because you have to be so accurate it sometimes feels like I am just aiming a pixel at another pixel. Especially at range..

Maybe it is just a combination of animation and hit sound, or maybe I want to see some sort of worm creature shoot out of the skulk into the target. Perhaps like the alien gun from half life if you shoot and are on target?

Imbalanxd

<!--quoteo(post=1982569:date=Sep 25 2012, 12:04 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Sep 25 2012, 12:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1982569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Parasite is used barely enough imo, and whilst people will say 'don't dumb down this game' I think it could do with becoming a bit more 'shotgun' like, with perhaps 3 hits per shot with a very low spread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This +111

Wilson

<!--quoteo(post=1982569:date=Sep 24 2012, 11:04 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Sep 24 2012, 11:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1982569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am impressed by the hitboxes more than disappointed. The ones in CS 1.6 used to be massive oblongs, it seems modern games have become a lot tighter now and true to the model. Being more accurate to the model however has actually made the aiming aspect a lot more refined, basically harder.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I think there is a certain point where it becomes impossible for a human to be so accurate that very refined hotboxes are needed, often they can cause more problems. I think that is part of the reason why many cs 1.6 and dod 1.3 players prefer the older games over source, because the hit-reg feels more consistent. Accurate hitboxes can actually cause many weird situations like shooting through a guys legs during 1 frame of an animation and missing when your crosshair looked to be on target. I think it is better for the hitbox to work consistently as the player would expect so that these types of situations don't happen, rather than for it to be 100% accurate to the model.

I hope they don't change parasite to a shotgun style weapon. At the moment it is my favourite weapon in the game, despite the obvious hitreg problems. It is so satisfying to get para kills with flick shots and snipes. It really adds another dimension to skulk play. Hopefully they fix these issues and it will become even more rewarding to play skulk.

{GGs} Chicken

Yeah's it's pretty wonky. I miss more standing still and waiting for a marine to walk into it than moving and jumping around which is really questionable.

1dominator1

Parasite is rather iffy. Also the fact that the default crosshair is many, many times larger than the hitbox is a cardinal sin and whoever designed said crosshair should have their food taken away.

<!--quoteo(post=1982592:date=Sep 24 2012, 06:36 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Sep 24 2012, 06:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1982592"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hope they don't change parasite to a shotgun style weapon. At the moment it is my favourite weapon in the game, despite the obvious hitreg problems. It is so satisfying to get para kills with flick shots and snipes. It really adds another dimension to skulk play. Hopefully they fix these issues and it will become even more rewarding to play skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Or that moment when your bounding towards a reloading rine with 10 health and know that you wont reach him in time so you fire your para into his chest and floor him.

WorthyRival

Try to parasite while strafing I will miss 2/3 shots.

Koruyo

Even tho very fast, parasite is a projectile and not hitscan right? Why is that? (pretty sure thats also a reason why it seems so random hitting with it, while you and targets are moving)

Oh and while i am at it, <u>why the hell</u> is gorge spit invisible for gorges(parasite is invisible too, but since its very fast it doesnt matter too much), with only this fake viewmodel effect?
(you dont see the projectile flying, which makes it pretty much impossible to get a proper feeling how to preaim and adjust to hit moving targets)

PS:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Parasite is used barely enough imo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Parasiting is an essential part of earlygame skulk vs marine combat... 1less bite is a big deal, so you dont want it to be too easy and more or less risk free.
And even later on, while its not as strong anymore, you always want to parasite if the situation is right. (its very useful to know in what direction a marine is looking or moving without needing to be in los etc - gives you the chance to engage in perfect moments, increasing the chance to succeed)

RockyMarc

<!--quoteo(post=1982727:date=Sep 25 2012, 12:35 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Sep 25 2012, 12:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1982727"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even tho very fast, parasite is a projectile and not hitscan right? Why is that? (pretty sure thats also a reason why it seems so random hitting with it, while you and targets are moving)

Oh and while i am at it, <u>why the hell</u> is gorge spit invisible for gorges(parasite is invisible too, but since its very fast it doesnt matter too much), with only this fake viewmodel effect?
(you dont see the projectile flying, which makes it pretty much impossible to get a proper feeling how to preaim and adjust to hit moving targets)

PS:

Parasiting is an essential part of earlygame skulk vs marine combat... 1less bite is a big deal, so you dont want it to be too easy and more or less risk free.
And even later on, while its not as strong anymore, you always want to parasite if the situation is right. (its very useful to know in what direction a marine is looking or moving without needing to be in los etc)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Oh man I hate the gorge spit how it's invisible and the splat shows up on the wall only, it's so bloody hard to aim ahead not knowing where the heck the spits are going.. Yeah I really hope they fix that

_Necro_

<!--quoteo(post=1982531:date=Sep 24 2012, 10:24 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 24 2012, 10:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1982531"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I feel like whenever I try and parasite a marine while my mouse is moving it almost always misses. When I wait for them to line up with my crosshair, however, it seems to hit.

I can't be sure that I wasn't just missing though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I have the same feeling about para (and spit). I think this is a bug. Could it be, that the code is using the wrong time frame when predicting a hit? Like it uses where you aimed 100ms before instead of where you really aimed when you clicked mouse1? It feels this way and could be easy to check in the code.

Anyway, very good investigation, wilson. Thank you for that.

Skie

Pixel perfect swing shots are very hard in NS2, because I'm pretty sure that with any weapon there's a one frame delay where your shots will go. That is, if you have 60 fps, your shot will actually land where your cursor was 16ms ago, instead where it is at when you click. This is very difficult to prove, but just doing fast swings with the pistol and trying to hit a lamp on the wall from a few meters away, most of the time my bullet lands right before the lamp on my 'swing trajectory'.

All this makes parasiting pretty annoying because a model 30 meters away can move a lot in one frame in respect to your cursor.

PS. Could someone who thinks they have a decent aim try this out? I just want to know I'm not going crazy. :)

eLbot

<!--quoteo(post=1982592:date=Sep 24 2012, 02:36 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Sep 24 2012, 02:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1982592"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think there is a certain point where it becomes impossible for a human to be so accurate that very refined hotboxes are needed, <SNIP>....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Couldnt agree more with this post, you're right on the money and I'm really thankful we have guys like you in the community to bring (all of this) to our attention. Sorry for not being productive - I just wanted to thank you.

Yuuki

We need LoD (level of detail) on hitbox. Far away: big box. Close: more detailed.

Skie

<!--quoteo(post=1982853:date=Sep 25 2012, 04:29 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Sep 25 2012, 04:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1982853"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We need LoD (level of detail) on hitbox. Far away: big box. Close: more detailed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Someone will just exploit it to be big box at all distances and get easy hits.

_Necro_

Are the hit boxes fixed with the latest build?

Wilson

No, just load the models up in the viewer and use the physics windows to render collisions (or type collision in console while in-game) to see the hitboxes.

_Necro_

Are the devs aware of this?

hakenspit

<!--quoteo(post=1993187:date=Oct 18 2012, 09:04 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Oct 18 2012, 09:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993187"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are the devs aware of this?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the latest Q&A they said "Its a 1 shot thing its meant to be hard"...but I think its a cop out and that they have not tried to use it at anything but point blank range (as thats only when it seems to be halfway reliable).
Post 1.0 I hope...

elmo9000

I think parasite regs just fine. It can get hard when players warp and skip animations though, but thats not parasites fault.

hakenspit

<!--quoteo(post=1993196:date=Oct 18 2012, 10:04 PM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Oct 18 2012, 10:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993196"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think parasite regs just fine. It can get hard when players warp and skip animations though, but thats not parasites fault.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No but its not a lack of skill on my end (at least not for atleast 10% of them ;))...it is hit reg related issue...it was never this unreliable in NS.

Runteh

I'd love it to be like the hivehand from half life :P Auto aim I know, but would be so cool :)

Gliss

oh wow, there's plenty of examples where the model just overlaps the hitboxes. that sounds like the source of a large majority of hit registry complaints.