Movement in NS2 simply feels handicapped. In NS1 I could move pretty much anyway I wanted- I felt free and that I was in complete control of my character. In NS2 there are so many restrictions on movement in the name of being "intuitive" or something. Wallhop is not intuitive at all compared to bhopping. Gimped marine movement feels so weird and inconsistent, it is the most terrible human character in an FPS I have ever played. I can't backpedal, I can't jump without hopping 2 inches in place. I feel like I'm in Harrison Bergeron or something because of all the handicaps and restrictions on me. The marine restrictions were put in place because alien movement was gimped. Fix alien movement, and we can restore marine movement to NS1 levels and come out with a better game.
<!--quoteo(post=1983913:date=Sep 28 2012, 08:37 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Sep 28 2012, 08:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983913"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>All the reasons why bunnyhop has been blacklisted exist in wallhop just as much, if not more.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Guys, come on. UWE has said many times before that bhop will not be in NS2.
If you believe so fervently, then start arguing for the mechanics from bhop that you liked. Provide coherent and intelligent points why certain mechanics or certain parts of bunnyhopping should be included, and what they would add to NS2. What you're doing right now is essentially saying "movement sucks bhop is better", which is a view that has been yelled <b>ad nauseum</b> on these forums.
If you can't argue for your mechanics without using the word Bunnyhopping or referring to what it was like in NS, you shouldn't be trying to make a case for them, in my opinion.
The wall jump is at least at attempt at intuitive and skill based movement! Not many people could do what people were doing with wall jump around 216 (i think that was the patch anyways) and though they got rid of that iteration UWE is still trying and I feel they're going to succeed in making an innovative, intuitive skill based movement mechanic at least for the skulks that will make everyone happy.
I dont want the game to be dumbed down, I just dont want something esoteric and difficult to utilize like bhop. I want to see normal players doing it and then the masters coming by and saying "lemme show you how thats REALLY done"
That kinda stuff never happened with bhop from what I remember
This thread I believe is more of a rant, we know it won't be changed. UWE have blacklisted it in the sake for immersiveness, no amount of logic will override that blanket statement. Our only hope is that NS2c proves more popular than NS2 vanilla
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1983903:date=Sep 27 2012, 11:04 PM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Sep 27 2012, 11:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983903"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cory recently confirmed that BHOP is not something they want in the game. I don't see this changing before 1.0... despite the games desperate need for a movement system that works.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Considering how vocal Cory has been about the exclusion of bunnyhopping throughout development, I wouldn't be surprised at all if he was the one originally responsible for pushing the original decision through. The UWE guys are a close-knit group, so it isn't unnatural that one person's dislike for a particular feature could sour the entire team on it.
This is all crazy speculation on my part though, it just seems a little too convenient that he's always the one "confirming" that bunnyhopping will never be implemented whenever this discussion pops up.
It's such a shame though, they could've made an amazing movement system for skulks by combining an improved, more intuitive, bunnyhop with some form of walljumping. Instead we're stuck with a situation where rookie skulks destroy rookie marines, while skilled marines destroy skilled skulks.
Just to say, even with games like CoD not everyone likes the movement system. Perhaps when the game comes out it will vary by server, much like crouch servers in CoD..someone might mod it to have the movement that you are looking for. Some people like crouch servers on CoD because it brings a more tactical approach to the game, while others like to run and gun. Its all personal preference..and we'll just have to wait to see what kind of game mods and server rules will be implemented and EVERYONE will be happy! maybe...
NS2 movement would be fine, even without bunnyhop, if we removed the current restrictions we had in place. Marines should be able to jump and move freely in every direction, skulk shouldn't have a pathetic speed cap (It's capped at like 9 for walljump, wtf), there shouldn't be any slowdown on anything (outside of weapons with higher weights- that's always been fine), etc. And collision needs to be refined. After all of that, I can live happily with the movement, even without bunnyhop.
<!--quoteo(post=1983939:date=Sep 28 2012, 09:08 AM:name=Beelzebub)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Beelzebub @ Sep 28 2012, 09:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983939"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just to say, even with games like CoD not everyone likes the movement system. Perhaps when the game comes out it will vary by server, much like crouch servers in CoD..someone might mod it to have the movement that you are looking for. Some people like crouch servers on CoD because it brings a more tactical approach to the game, while others like to run and gun. Its all personal preference..and we'll just have to wait to see what kind of game mods and server rules will be implemented and EVERYONE will be happy! maybe...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Already done.. NS2c
Hopefully it gets played with steamworks now supporting mods
<!--quoteo(post=1983937:date=Sep 27 2012, 07:06 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Sep 27 2012, 07:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983937"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Considering how vocal Cory has been about the exclusion of bunnyhopping throughout development, I wouldn't be surprised at all if he was the one originally responsible for pushing the original decision through. The UWE guys are a close-knit group, so it isn't unnatural that one person's dislike for a particular feature could sour the entire team on it.
This is all crazy speculation on my part though, it just seems a little too convenient that he's always the one "confirming" that bunnyhopping will never be implemented whenever this discussion pops up.
It's such a shame though, they could've made an amazing movement system for skulks by combining an improved, more intuitive, bunnyhop with some form of walljumping. Instead we're stuck with a situation where rookie skulks destroy rookie marines, while skilled marines destroy skilled skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now see even I'd love that, some sort of more intuitive bhop that works with (a working version of) wall jump to create a more sophisticated movement system that can still be easily explained to someone that just got the game. I dont mind complexity as long as its not confusing or archaic.
Maybe if you guys stopped calling it bunny hopping you could fool cory into letting it into the game =P
Do any other games have a similar skill based movement system that could be suggested?
EDIT: What if it was a system just based on timing? Say the first wall jump if you absolutely nailed it and hit the jump key again RIGHT as you touch the wall you can leap off at a really nice speed, like a rapidly decreasing 12-13, then if you did the same thing jumping off the ground you refreshed that speed. The timing would be absolutely paramount though, if you miss it by even a fraction of a second you'd only get the normal 9 speed.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited September 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1983903:date=Sep 27 2012, 03:04 PM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Sep 27 2012, 03:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983903"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unintuitive is solved by a tutorial<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you are misunderstanding that word, and it's intended purpose.
For those who still wish to advocate for Bunnyhopping like Fanatic, i suggest you open up a topic on the matter. Considering what fana said earlier is true, that Bhopping doesn't really apply to marines in combat..
Bhop is a highly controversial and important topic, and it rearing it's head in here instead of it's own thread is diluting the importance of the details of Marine movement, that both the OP as well as others have mentioned.. simply put: they deserve their own threads.
<!--quoteo(post=1983963:date=Sep 27 2012, 07:49 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 27 2012, 07:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983963"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For those who still wish to advocate for Bunnyhopping like Fanatic, i suggest you open up a topic on the matter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's always going to end up being the same way;
vets/comp players - "NS2 has the same gameplay pace as farmville now, WTF UNKNOWN WORLDS?!?!" *rebel group plans assault on UWE headquarters to end their "terror" once and for all*
new players - "zomg learn 2 adapt SRSLY BHOP? NO IMMERSION. TOO HARD HOW YOU SUPPOSED TO BITE? NS2 TACTICAL SHOOTER NOT QUAKE!!!1 Dumb tryhard players just want to stomp pubs with their 'leet jumping skillz'. WALLJUMP IS NEW AND TRENDY. GET WITH THE TIMES.'"
UWE - "walljump next patch is loooooooooooking gooooooooooooood~ *trollface*"
Cmon neorussia have a little faith. Bhop isnt the only skill based movement mechanic and UWE knows that. I know they will deliver something.
I know I was a bit unconstructive earlier in the thread and I apologize to all, but now its time to get constructive.
What could UWE do that isn't bunnyhop (innovative) and is easy to learn yet difficult to master like the timing thing i suggested earlier? Brainstorm time
Simply put: Keep the bhop debate out of here please guys. It was not the original point of the topic. You can go ahead and create a new topic for it as long as it is kept civil.
<!--quoteo(post=1983982:date=Sep 27 2012, 08:48 PM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Sep 27 2012, 08:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983982"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What could UWE do that isn't bunnyhop (innovative) and is easy to learn yet difficult to master like the timing thing i suggested earlier? Brainstorm time<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
not talking about bhop, but they need to implement proper airstrafing, and make it so your speed does not get stored, it's a stupid mechanic. If you start strafing left, you gain momentum until you are at full speed, you stop for a split second, and move right. In any other game, you will start accelerating until you are back at full walk speed, but not in NS2. When you switch directions you keep your momentum, it's really obvious as skulk when trying to lead a marine to hit him parasite. Not going to argue about bhop but this is how skulk movement should be <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXYvRqMTqao&hd=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXYvRqMTqao&hd=1</a> a combination of all movement mechanics, and warsow has it so easy that any player can do it. There's no reason for a huge difference in movement making it hard to go from one team to another where marines have different physics completely from aliens. So if you take out all the advanced movement mechanics and maybe lower base speed there you go you get how marine movement is supposed to be. The arguement that it is hard to chase a marine because he can walk backwards at a decent speed is no longer valid if any skulk mechanic even base speed was good.
If warsow already has the movement you like then why not play that? IMO it is actually an example of why certain movement mechanics can be bad. Despite the movement being as simplified as possible it is still inaccessible to new players. If you join a server as a noob, most of the players will be moving around really fast and you'll just keep getting fragged easily. Unless you're already into that type of game then it's unlikely that you'll stick around for long. Warsow has a small community for a reason.
<!--quoteo(post=1983945:date=Sep 27 2012, 05:22 PM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Sep 27 2012, 05:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983945"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do any other games have a similar skill based movement system that could be suggested?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, NeoRussia already posted a video but, warsow was the first thing that came to mind... You have bunnyhop obviously, but you can also do walljumps (with a kind of dash). Now skulks don't necessarily need the exact same mechanics but it's certainly a step in the right direction. Like it has been mentioned, if there could be a combination of walljump and bhop for the skulks, that would be awesome...
Anyway, the thread is titled Marine movement and we are arguing about skulk movement. Either rename the thread (if possible), or let's get back on track :p
<!--quoteo(post=1983995:date=Sep 27 2012, 09:10 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Sep 27 2012, 09:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983995"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If warsow already has the movement you like then why not play that? IMO it is actually an example of why certain movement mechanics can be bad. Despite the movement being as simplified as possible it is still inaccessible to new players. If you join a server as a noob, most of the players will be moving around really fast and you'll just keep getting fragged easily. Unless you're already into that type of game then it's unlikely that you'll stick around for long. Warsow has a small community for a reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Warsow has a small community because it's a community mod that was only advertised to quake players and doesn't offer anything new in terms of game modes from other quake-like games, so it's only appealing to people who already like quake. Basic strafejumping only needs holding one button. Walljump/dodge is only one button. It is simpler than walljump was last patch and it takes a long time to get used to the energy storing that happens in NS2, even I find it difficult. This doesn't make it easier for marines either, since they fall into the same problem where the physics are really strange, you jump pretty high but there's no forward momentum, and there are different acceleration and maximum speed values for every direction and crouch jumping requires weird timing. Compared to other modern engines ; Source engine, the engine CoD uses, the HL GSRC engine, Unreal engine, are all derivatives of the id Tech 3 engine used in quake 3. In all of these engines' movement is simple and makes sense compared to NS2. You get maximum height by crouching at the APEX of the jump not at a certain time based on seconds. Acceleration is linear in all directions. Strafing gives you speed which is probably what they are thinking NS2 is lacking when they say skulk/marine air control is clunky. Speed gain by turning is similar to real life if you want to go all "realism" about this. Now as for something being harder not always being better, this is the case where it actually applies.
Warsow has a small community because 1v1 fps duel is a dieing concept, is using a quake 2 engine and does not have the eye candy that other games have. It has the best movement system in any game i've ever seen and it is SOOO EASY to learn. Anyone can pick up the movement system in warsow in no time at all.
Have you played warsow, from your comments it seems the answer would be no. They get fragged because the people playing warsow have been playing q1/2/qw/q3/q3cpma for 10 years. They know the maps, weapon timings, game strategy for 1v1.
This is embarrassing to say, but I fully agree with NeoRussia. I don't think I've ever played a FPS with movement as sluggish and restrictive as NS2's current movement for Marines. One of the best parts of NS1 was that there was ranged/melee interplay: Marines had to try and maintain distance and Aliens had to stay in range. Now that aspect is greatly nerfed. I honestly don't know what people are complaining about "jump spam" are going on about - Marines get maybe two jumps before it's nearly useless.
Frankly, gameplay should come before "atmosphere" and "realism". I play a game, especially a multiplayer one, for gameplay; everything else is secondary. When I finally got my gift copy of NS2 today, I seriously thought about giving it to the person I dislike the most on my friend's list. The current incarnation of NS2 is not a game I can honestly recommend to anybody.
<!--quoteo(post=1983995:date=Sep 27 2012, 09:10 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Sep 27 2012, 09:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983995"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If warsow already has the movement you like then why not play that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm idling in it right now, gunslinging in the darkbox chicago duel server
come at me
<!--quoteo(post=1983995:date=Sep 27 2012, 09:10 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Sep 27 2012, 09:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983995"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMO it is actually an example of why certain movement mechanics can be bad. Despite the movement being as simplified as possible it is still inaccessible to new players. If you join a server as a noob, most of the players will be moving around really fast and you'll just keep getting fragged easily. Unless you're already into that type of game then it's unlikely that you'll stick around for long. Warsow has a small community for a reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the game has tutorials that get you up to speed with the basics, and after that it's all about practicing and developing, just like everything else ever in life luckily there are lots of example videos, and the community is generally very accepting and helpful
games where you can instantly join a group of experienced players and do well are bad games (or at least they won't offer anything in the long term)
ns1 movement is vastly different from warsow (I guess you still press the spacebar/mouse2 rhythmically) and the comparison really shouldn't be made, but there is a lot of overlap between people who like warsow/quake and people who want old-style ns movement (read: people who don't blow at fps games)
I'm just playing devils advocate. Warsow is a niche game and always will be.
NeoRussia, imo you should make a video showing exactly what you are talking about comparing ns2 to other games (not just for advanced movement, but everything you mentioned) I think it is much better to show with unbiased evidence than it is to just post an opinion on the forum. It is a lot easier to ignore a post than to ignore the evidence right in front of your eyes. It is up to you of course, but I think that is a better way to give feedback if you want it taken seriously.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->games where you can instantly join a group of experienced players and do well are bad games<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree completely. But games where the only possible opponents are experienced players are doomed to get a smaller and smaller player base.
<!--quoteo(post=1984021:date=Sep 27 2012, 10:17 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Sep 27 2012, 10:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1984021"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NeoRussia, imo you should make a video showing exactly what you are talking about comparing ns2 to other games<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think I can, even if I try my best it's something you need to experience for yourself. It's not just nostalgia goggles, playing quake-like shooters for a few years will make you understand and appreciate things you wouldn't otherwise in shooters. After playing Unreal games for what like 7 years? I realized just how much depth something as simple as a button that makes you dodge can add to a game. When you watch players they all move and act differently having their own playstyle, that's what makes Quake and similar games so fun to 1v1 where each duel is completely different from another, and practising with the same player would let you be able to understand them. Just like SC2 it adds a lot to the game when playing it seriously. Now you can say that could also be because of the maps and the duel game mode in general but if you just take CoD for example and make a quake map in it and force 2 people to play each other no matter how many times you watch the players if they are both as good as each other you won't notice a difference spectating one and the other aside from the whole strategies they use even if you watch them play for 10 years or so, unlike quake. And this is a big reason as to why in my opinion people are playing the same game even after this many years. This may why oddly enough some people like making and watching frag videos too. I really don't think NS2 captures this as well as NS1 did, but what do I know I have never played NS1 actually. Neither have I played quake more than very few times when it first came out. Just how I see things.
<!--quoteo(post=1984009:date=Sep 27 2012, 09:44 PM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Underwhelmed @ Sep 27 2012, 09:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1984009"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is embarrassing to say, but I fully agree with NeoRussia. I don't think I've ever played a FPS with movement as sluggish and restrictive as NS2's current movement for Marines. One of the best parts of NS1 was that there was ranged/melee interplay: Marines had to try and maintain distance and Aliens had to stay in range. Now that aspect is greatly nerfed. I honestly don't know what people are complaining about "jump spam" are going on about - Marines get maybe two jumps before it's nearly useless.
Frankly, gameplay should come before "atmosphere" and "realism". I play a game, especially a multiplayer one, for gameplay; everything else is secondary. When I finally got my gift copy of NS2 today, I seriously thought about giving it to the person I dislike the most on my friend's list. The current incarnation of NS2 is not a game I can honestly recommend to anybody.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well the only alternative I can think of is to work with mods likes ns2c and then perhaps it will be integrated into the game. A few movement mods that were made earlier in the beta are now part of the game, namely lerk movement and fade momentum.
<!--quoteo(post=1984021:date=Sep 27 2012, 10:17 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Sep 27 2012, 10:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1984021"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree completely. But games where the only possible opponents are experienced players are doomed to get a smaller and smaller player base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is why I got people I know from quake to play warsow, and I namedrop it in like every fifth post I make on here
grassroots efforts dawg~
<!--quoteo(post=1984027:date=Sep 27 2012, 10:46 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Sep 27 2012, 10:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1984027"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A few movement mods that were made earlier in the beta are now part of the game, namely lerk movement and fade momentum.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the lerk stuff didn't have a significant enough impact because the class was crushed in so many other ways, and will continue to be (since nobody knows how they want it to play anymore but it can't be like ns1 because that's the dogma of this game)
the fade stuff doesn't matter because the movement has always been the smoothest, best designed part of it in ns2...what's lacking is the skill of using metabolize and acid rocket in conjunction with the other abilities (leaving a brutally simple and difficult-to-balance combat experience)
<!--quoteo(post=1984026:date=Sep 27 2012, 10:42 PM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Sep 27 2012, 10:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1984026"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->DayZ. And look how popular that is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's also a wholly different type of game, and clearly has nothing to do with his conception of 'multiplayer game' as it applies to ns2
and so is league of legends, and barbie horse adventure 2, and beetle adventure racing
Comments
If we're going to be "intuitive" or something, please explain to me how wallhop or whatever is more intuitive then bunnyhopping.
If you believe so fervently, then start arguing for the mechanics from bhop that you liked. Provide coherent and intelligent points why certain mechanics or certain parts of bunnyhopping should be included, and what they would add to NS2. What you're doing right now is essentially saying "movement sucks bhop is better", which is a view that has been yelled <b>ad nauseum</b> on these forums.
If you can't argue for your mechanics without using the word Bunnyhopping or referring to what it was like in NS, you shouldn't be trying to make a case for them, in my opinion.
I dont want the game to be dumbed down, I just dont want something esoteric and difficult to utilize like bhop. I want to see normal players doing it and then the masters coming by and saying "lemme show you how thats REALLY done"
That kinda stuff never happened with bhop from what I remember
Considering how vocal Cory has been about the exclusion of bunnyhopping throughout development, I wouldn't be surprised at all if he was the one originally responsible for pushing the original decision through. The UWE guys are a close-knit group, so it isn't unnatural that one person's dislike for a particular feature could sour the entire team on it.
This is all crazy speculation on my part though, it just seems a little too convenient that he's always the one "confirming" that bunnyhopping will never be implemented whenever this discussion pops up.
It's such a shame though, they could've made an amazing movement system for skulks by combining an improved, more intuitive, bunnyhop with some form of walljumping. Instead we're stuck with a situation where rookie skulks destroy rookie marines, while skilled marines destroy skilled skulks.
Already done.. NS2c
Hopefully it gets played with steamworks now supporting mods
This is all crazy speculation on my part though, it just seems a little too convenient that he's always the one "confirming" that bunnyhopping will never be implemented whenever this discussion pops up.
It's such a shame though, they could've made an amazing movement system for skulks by combining an improved, more intuitive, bunnyhop with some form of walljumping. Instead we're stuck with a situation where rookie skulks destroy rookie marines, while skilled marines destroy skilled skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now see even I'd love that, some sort of more intuitive bhop that works with (a working version of) wall jump to create a more sophisticated movement system that can still be easily explained to someone that just got the game. I dont mind complexity as long as its not confusing or archaic.
Maybe if you guys stopped calling it bunny hopping you could fool cory into letting it into the game =P
Do any other games have a similar skill based movement system that could be suggested?
EDIT: What if it was a system just based on timing? Say the first wall jump if you absolutely nailed it and hit the jump key again RIGHT as you touch the wall you can leap off at a really nice speed, like a rapidly decreasing 12-13, then if you did the same thing jumping off the ground you refreshed that speed. The timing would be absolutely paramount though, if you miss it by even a fraction of a second you'd only get the normal 9 speed.
Example of warsow movement tutorial
I think you are misunderstanding that word, and it's intended purpose.
For those who still wish to advocate for Bunnyhopping like Fanatic, i suggest you open up a topic on the matter.
Considering what fana said earlier is true, that Bhopping doesn't really apply to marines in combat..
Bhop is a highly controversial and important topic, and it rearing it's head in here instead of it's own thread is diluting the importance of the details of Marine movement, that both the OP as well as others have mentioned.. simply put: they deserve their own threads.
It's always going to end up being the same way;
vets/comp players - "NS2 has the same gameplay pace as farmville now, WTF UNKNOWN WORLDS?!?!" *rebel group plans assault on UWE headquarters to end their "terror" once and for all*
new players - "zomg learn 2 adapt SRSLY BHOP? NO IMMERSION. TOO HARD HOW YOU SUPPOSED TO BITE? NS2 TACTICAL SHOOTER NOT QUAKE!!!1 Dumb tryhard players just want to stomp pubs with their 'leet jumping skillz'. WALLJUMP IS NEW AND TRENDY. GET WITH THE TIMES.'"
UWE - "walljump next patch is loooooooooooking gooooooooooooood~ *trollface*"
I know I was a bit unconstructive earlier in the thread and I apologize to all, but now its time to get constructive.
What could UWE do that isn't bunnyhop (innovative) and is easy to learn yet difficult to master like the timing thing i suggested earlier? Brainstorm time
not talking about bhop, but they need to implement proper airstrafing, and make it so your speed does not get stored, it's a stupid mechanic. If you start strafing left, you gain momentum until you are at full speed, you stop for a split second, and move right. In any other game, you will start accelerating until you are back at full walk speed, but not in NS2. When you switch directions you keep your momentum, it's really obvious as skulk when trying to lead a marine to hit him parasite. Not going to argue about bhop but this is how skulk movement should be <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXYvRqMTqao&hd=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXYvRqMTqao&hd=1</a> a combination of all movement mechanics, and warsow has it so easy that any player can do it. There's no reason for a huge difference in movement making it hard to go from one team to another where marines have different physics completely from aliens. So if you take out all the advanced movement mechanics and maybe lower base speed there you go you get how marine movement is supposed to be. The arguement that it is hard to chase a marine because he can walk backwards at a decent speed is no longer valid if any skulk mechanic even base speed was good.
Well, NeoRussia already posted a video but, warsow was the first thing that came to mind... You have bunnyhop obviously, but you can also do walljumps (with a kind of dash). Now skulks don't necessarily need the exact same mechanics but it's certainly a step in the right direction.
Like it has been mentioned, if there could be a combination of walljump and bhop for the skulks, that would be awesome...
Anyway, the thread is titled Marine movement and we are arguing about skulk movement. Either rename the thread (if possible), or let's get back on track :p
Warsow has a small community because it's a community mod that was only advertised to quake players and doesn't offer anything new in terms of game modes from other quake-like games, so it's only appealing to people who already like quake. Basic strafejumping only needs holding one button. Walljump/dodge is only one button. It is simpler than walljump was last patch and it takes a long time to get used to the energy storing that happens in NS2, even I find it difficult. This doesn't make it easier for marines either, since they fall into the same problem where the physics are really strange, you jump pretty high but there's no forward momentum, and there are different acceleration and maximum speed values for every direction and crouch jumping requires weird timing. Compared to other modern engines ; Source engine, the engine CoD uses, the HL GSRC engine, Unreal engine, are all derivatives of the id Tech 3 engine used in quake 3. In all of these engines' movement is simple and makes sense compared to NS2. You get maximum height by crouching at the APEX of the jump not at a certain time based on seconds. Acceleration is linear in all directions. Strafing gives you speed which is probably what they are thinking NS2 is lacking when they say skulk/marine air control is clunky. Speed gain by turning is similar to real life if you want to go all "realism" about this. Now as for something being harder not always being better, this is the case where it actually applies.
No.
Warsow has a small community because 1v1 fps duel is a dieing concept, is using a quake 2 engine and does not have the eye candy that other games have. It has the best movement system in any game i've ever seen and it is SOOO EASY to learn. Anyone can pick up the movement system in warsow in no time at all.
Have you played warsow, from your comments it seems the answer would be no. They get fragged because the people playing warsow have been playing q1/2/qw/q3/q3cpma for 10 years. They know the maps, weapon timings, game strategy for 1v1.
Frankly, gameplay should come before "atmosphere" and "realism". I play a game, especially a multiplayer one, for gameplay; everything else is secondary. When I finally got my gift copy of NS2 today, I seriously thought about giving it to the person I dislike the most on my friend's list. The current incarnation of NS2 is not a game I can honestly recommend to anybody.
I'm idling in it right now, gunslinging in the darkbox chicago duel server
come at me
<!--quoteo(post=1983995:date=Sep 27 2012, 09:10 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Sep 27 2012, 09:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983995"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMO it is actually an example of why certain movement mechanics can be bad. Despite the movement being as simplified as possible it is still inaccessible to new players. If you join a server as a noob, most of the players will be moving around really fast and you'll just keep getting fragged easily. Unless you're already into that type of game then it's unlikely that you'll stick around for long. Warsow has a small community for a reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the game has tutorials that get you up to speed with the basics, and after that it's all about practicing and developing, just like everything else ever in life
luckily there are lots of example videos, and the community is generally very accepting and helpful
games where you can instantly join a group of experienced players and do well are bad games (or at least they won't offer anything in the long term)
ns1 movement is vastly different from warsow (I guess you still press the spacebar/mouse2 rhythmically) and the comparison really shouldn't be made, but there is a lot of overlap between people who like warsow/quake and people who want old-style ns movement (read: people who don't blow at fps games)
NeoRussia, imo you should make a video showing exactly what you are talking about comparing ns2 to other games (not just for advanced movement, but everything you mentioned) I think it is much better to show with unbiased evidence than it is to just post an opinion on the forum. It is a lot easier to ignore a post than to ignore the evidence right in front of your eyes. It is up to you of course, but I think that is a better way to give feedback if you want it taken seriously.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->games where you can instantly join a group of experienced players and do well are bad games<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree completely. But games where the only possible opponents are experienced players are doomed to get a smaller and smaller player base.
I don't think I can, even if I try my best it's something you need to experience for yourself. It's not just nostalgia goggles, playing quake-like shooters for a few years will make you understand and appreciate things you wouldn't otherwise in shooters. After playing Unreal games for what like 7 years? I realized just how much depth something as simple as a button that makes you dodge can add to a game. When you watch players they all move and act differently having their own playstyle, that's what makes Quake and similar games so fun to 1v1 where each duel is completely different from another, and practising with the same player would let you be able to understand them. Just like SC2 it adds a lot to the game when playing it seriously. Now you can say that could also be because of the maps and the duel game mode in general but if you just take CoD for example and make a quake map in it and force 2 people to play each other no matter how many times you watch the players if they are both as good as each other you won't notice a difference spectating one and the other aside from the whole strategies they use even if you watch them play for 10 years or so, unlike quake. And this is a big reason as to why in my opinion people are playing the same game even after this many years. This may why oddly enough some people like making and watching frag videos too. I really don't think NS2 captures this as well as NS1 did, but what do I know I have never played NS1 actually. Neither have I played quake more than very few times when it first came out. Just how I see things.
Frankly, gameplay should come before "atmosphere" and "realism". I play a game, especially a multiplayer one, for gameplay; everything else is secondary. When I finally got my gift copy of NS2 today, I seriously thought about giving it to the person I dislike the most on my friend's list. The current incarnation of NS2 is not a game I can honestly recommend to anybody.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
DayZ. And look how popular that is.
this is why I got people I know from quake to play warsow, and I namedrop it in like every fifth post I make on here
grassroots efforts dawg~
<!--quoteo(post=1984027:date=Sep 27 2012, 10:46 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Sep 27 2012, 10:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1984027"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A few movement mods that were made earlier in the beta are now part of the game, namely lerk movement and fade momentum.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the lerk stuff didn't have a significant enough impact because the class was crushed in so many other ways, and will continue to be (since nobody knows how they want it to play anymore but it can't be like ns1 because that's the dogma of this game)
the fade stuff doesn't matter because the movement has always been the smoothest, best designed part of it in ns2...what's lacking is the skill of using metabolize and acid rocket in conjunction with the other abilities (leaving a brutally simple and difficult-to-balance combat experience)
<!--quoteo(post=1984026:date=Sep 27 2012, 10:42 PM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Sep 27 2012, 10:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1984026"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->DayZ. And look how popular that is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's also a wholly different type of game, and clearly has nothing to do with his conception of 'multiplayer game' as it applies to ns2
and so is league of legends, and barbie horse adventure 2, and beetle adventure racing
what is your point? oh right, you don't have one.