Surprised so many people use modified FOV's O_o. Dunno how this people feel this acceptable if the game hopes to be competitive, on the level of pink skulks IMO.
I think we should force everybody to play at the same resolution, some ppl get advantages over others if they can just change it to whatever they want...
(trololol)
edit: btw, what do i have to change in the clien.lua? At least I thought FoV changing was serverside only until today :X On the other hand, patchday is tomorrow... (i guess) So i can also wait for that to play around.
<!--quoteo(post=1983130:date=Sep 25 2012, 09:39 PM:name=bily)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bily @ Sep 25 2012, 09:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Surprised so many people use modified FOV's O_o. Dunno how this people feel this acceptable if the game hopes to be competitive, on the level of pink skulks IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
maybe it's because every real competitive fps has higher fov than the default in ns2?
Consistency checking is needed, and if some mods die because of it then it's a necessary evil.
I can think of an elegant way to solve the issue: <i>steam workshop collections</i> Have server owners put mods into a steam workshop collection. Have a server setting to specify a collection as a 'cosmetic mod whitelist'. The server will allow (but not require) any mod in the whitelist, and force consistency checks on these mods. If a server owner wants a pure vanilla server they can have one, but if they want to allow their players some flexibility they can whitelist popular mods.
Problem is that Fov is based on many things, it cannot be same for all like it or not.
Its based on monitor size, how far you sit from it, is it widescreen, 16:10 16:19, or 4:3
One fov fits all isnt never good at all.
Fov doesnt give any advantage competative wise, all old school FPS that was esport and pro scene could change fov, Quake 1, Team Fortress on Quake, Team Fortress Classic, Unreal Tournament.
And please for gods sake, if you add a slider let us know what the current value is, remember in Darkness 2, the idiots adds a fov slider but doesnt tell you the value its on, thats like having a speedometer in a car with just a needle but no numerical values rofl.
But else changing in config files is cheating but you gain an unfair advantage im pretty shocked that being are actually doing this, and not understanding they are cheating.
if you want to config something, it should be an option ingame for everyone, not some lua ini config hack whatever. So tell devs what options needs to be tweaked. But again people prefer not because they want to gain an advantage by turning off fog, shadow. that is unacceptable.
If it doesnt check textures, then there wont be long before someone adds in blank textures or something to basically wallhack, like in the counter strike days.
All comapnies should really unite in making one big good anticheat system for all games, instead of having to start from scratch each time, they could learn from each other. One of the most recent big titles ive seen massive cheating in was Batttlefield 3 wow oh wow, aimbot, wallhacks, flying cheat, getting under the map.
Even Blizzard cant get it right, people hacking in Starcraft 2 in Grandmaster and it can take up to 3 months before Blizzards gets off their butts to ban them.
Cheaters and hackers have it way to easy in modern games :(
I hope they are gonna put a lot of effort into preventing cheating and hacking in Natural selection 2.
<!--quoteo(post=1983122:date=Sep 25 2012, 08:12 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Sep 25 2012, 08:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The FOV are set for certain lifeforms for a reason, simply arguing that some people might turn up gamma is a great reason for us all to run a multihack (well joe down the road does it...so therefor it must be ok). I dont buy into that, devs set FOV for a reason...to make each lifeform unique and also have tradeoffs (ie to make it easier for aliens to ambush marines). Sorry but FOV is something the developers set and is not a variable that players should be able to alter...it gives a player an unfair advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> According to whom? Considering the developers said they are adding the option in the next build, they seem to disagree. Besides, everyone will be able to change it, it's mainly personal.
<!--quoteo(post=1983122:date=Sep 25 2012, 08:12 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Sep 25 2012, 08:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You should not have a wider FOV in your 640x480 than I do in mine<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That sounds like "you should not have a different sensitivity in your game than a do in mine". Both of them don't make much sense.
So seeing skulks or marines to your sides when others cannot isn't advantageous?
CS 1.6 forced 90 FoV and it was bannable in most leagues to be caught with anything higher. The forced 90 FoV was the reason you would want to have a set aspect ratio if you used a widescreen in 1.6 because it would mess up the FoV and make your aim slightly off.
Edit: With the slider and consistency checks at least everyone will know to expect that everyone else has max FoV. So its not a huge deal to not have forced values.
just have 120fov as the max for the slider. at that level depth starts to feel off and you start playing with a disadvantage coz everything is so small in themiddle of your scree. I personally dont have an issue with FOV. Just find what your comfortable at and enjoy.
As far as competitive goes. Ns2 being an esport...really?...really
<!--quoteo(post=1983181:date=Sep 26 2012, 04:00 PM:name=comp_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (comp_ @ Sep 26 2012, 04:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983181"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->According to whom? Considering the developers said they are adding the option in the next build, they seem to disagree. Besides, everyone will be able to change it, it's mainly personal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Having gone to the effor tof setting variable FOV for different lifeforms I think is enough indication of the devs intent. Why should a marine have better FOV than a skulk? Its silly to say that the FOV restrictions are not part of what make the lifeforms unique and that by changing it your not altering how the game is meant to be played. Its pretty common to see modified FOV's....does not make it right. Heck I used to use a higher FOV back in the day but with steam came consistency checks and this meant that FOV was locked down and like everyone else I just adapted.
<!--quoteo(post=1983181:date=Sep 26 2012, 04:00 PM:name=comp_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (comp_ @ Sep 26 2012, 04:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983181"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That sounds like "you should not have a different sensitivity in your game than a do in mine". Both of them don't make much sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No I guess that one went over your head....if 2 players both use 640x480 they both have the image on their screen (assuming standing in same spot)...but if you modify the LUA and change your FOV then you can see more than someone who should have the same view. Cant really take yourself as a serious competitive game when you allow FOV changes, this was why the valve started doing file consistency checks (to stop people white-walling, altering FOV etc) different resolutions and being able to change your FOV are 2 different things. You can have a higher resolution support that might have slightly higher FOV or you can trim the top and bottom and just simply show in higher detail the same FOV (would not impact alien lifeforms at all).
It's easy to die as skulk biting a power node becouse you can't see a door/entry, usually for just some little pixels... changing the fov let you see that door/entry. Cheat.
Hope we'll only be able to decrease the fov in the options menu
<!--quoteo(post=1983212:date=Sep 26 2012, 09:17 AM:name=Cico)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cico @ Sep 26 2012, 09:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983212"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's easy to die as skulk biting a power node becouse you can't see a door/entry, usually for just some little pixels... changing the fov let you see that door/entry. Cheat.
Hope we'll only be able to decrease the fov in the options menu<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I use standard FoV and if you arent entirely dumb with where you sit on the powernode you can see the door on every node i know of.
It was a mistake on UWE's part to allow for modding prior to release. (read my reasoning before pulling out the troll / 4chan / 9gag rubbish)
The game is still in beta but due to modding players have modded out issues rather than highlight them for the devs to fix (or explain why they are 'broken' as they are), and rather than really see what the devs intended it gets 'fixed' rather than tested.
For example : What is wrong with the vanilla crosshairs ? What does the modded ones do that the vanilla ones dont ? Why is this needed ?
... another reason modding prior to release was a mistake is that the vanilla version will be competing for parts of the player base right from launch, competing with mods that turn NS2 into NS1, Combat clones, CS clones etc etc. The player base will be fractured at or shortly after launch.
I am NOT saying modding should not be allowed, but let the vanilla game get some time to shine before NS2 gets modded to hell and gone.
<!--quoteo(post=1983227:date=Sep 26 2012, 01:33 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Sep 26 2012, 01:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983227"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was a mistake on UWE's part to allow for modding prior to release. (read my reasoning before pulling out the troll / 4chan / 9gag rubbish)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I read the reasoning, didn't much like it. You do understand that the best maps have come from the community, as have the spectator mode (insight) and statistics (ns2stats). I think the newer alien vision was community side also first, and I'm sure there are a lot of other things that were made by community and incorporated into the game. You would fix a smaller problem by creating bigger problems.
Maps I didnt consider as modding honestly, it doesnt change how your game looks or works compared to my game.
I am not disputing community input or creations, but after the 1.0 launch... after the game has been tested and fixed up to a stable and ready for public consumption state. I do think the mods are a great asset, especially ones like the insight one for spectating and casting... dont get me wrong here.
I do think though that there is cases where mods are bypassing the developers vision of the game... like for example (but not pointing spcifically at this mod) , custom crosshairs... what was wrong with the vanilla ones ? Cant we fix those rather than mod in new ones ? Removing fog... so when I cant see into that foggy room to see the aliens, other guys can see clearly into that room ? Do these mods make it easier to see enemies ? Clear out aspects of the hud leaving more screen real estate (say taking out the exo hud, that would be a cheat in my eyes).
My point is that as testers we should of been getting the devs to fix the faults in the vanilla game, not modding the fixes into the game.... on release day is there going to be a list of needed mods for optimal gaming webbed to the top of the new player help section ? The game can still be modded after 1.0... there is no rush to mod it NOW, I am not saying remove modding... I am saying it was a mistake to allow modding so early, now its hard to tell if the vanilla game is ready for launch or is it aceptable if you install xyz mods first.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
I suggest you send an email to the devs ASnogardD. They will tell you in no uncertain terms that if it wasn't for the open source game code, NS2 would not be ready to ship for another 6 months- 1 year. A huge amount of NS2 has been coded/bug-fixed by the community. As a long-time member of this forum I would have thought you would have seen this development.
NS2 absolutely required open sourcing the game code to get anywhere near the level of development it has. Your comments may be valid for UWE when they release their next game (and i'm 100% certain that won't have a 3 in the title), as they already now have a team etc set-up, but this game would be nowhere near ready if it wasn't for the open source code.
<!--quoteo(post=1983193:date=Sep 26 2012, 06:40 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Sep 26 2012, 06:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983193"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cant really take yourself as a serious competitive game when you allow FOV changes, this was why the valve started doing file consistency checks (to stop people white-walling, altering FOV etc) different resolutions and being able to change your FOV are 2 different things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So what's the difference between changing FOV and changing resolution? Same result. I'll just buy 3 monitors and then have super wide fov. If you cut off vertical space instead then people who play on 4:3 resolutions will get the maximum space.
FOV isn't just about how much you can see, it's about what is comfortable for your eyes. You can't just have 1 size fits all or else a certain portion of players will get motion sickness.
I don't know why you keep talking about competitive gaming, you never heard of quake? Even in quake not all players play with the same FOV, some prefer high to see more around them, others play on low for more accurate aiming. As long as their are limits and everyone can set them in the options then I don't see how you can object. Certain graphics settings could also give you an advantage but we don't force people to play with everything maxed.
Tf2 has a meter in the options to adjust FOV between reasonable values. Anything outside of those values isn't allowed.
I feel like it is pointless arguing with you because you have made up your mind from back when you played games 10 years ago before widescreen monitors were even properly supported in games. You need to either give them more horizontal space or less vertical space, someone will always see a little bit more. They used to cut vertical space for widescreen monitors early in the beta but it was changed to give a more comfortable experience for those players. You could also argue that vertical space is more important in a game like ns2.
Of course changing lua files or increasing your fov beyond an acceptable amount shouldn't be allowed, but if someone playing at 4:3 wants to see the same as someone on 16:9 then I think they should be able to without buying a new monitor.
Heh, now I don't wonder anymore why the so called pros have so much "skill". I have a very simple definition for cheating. <b>Cheating: Altering the game to a state that is not intended by the devs and gives you an advantage over other players.</b>
If you have a crosshair as onos and others don't, that is cheating. If you can only see skulks that try to flank you because of your higher FOV, that is cheating. If you have no disadvantage by muffled sound when low on health, that is cheating. If you can see enemies where normally would be fog, that is cheating. If you can see skulks in dark corners, because you made the model pink, that is cheating. If you see enemy players through walls because you made them transparent, that is cheating.
You can turn it as you want, that doesn't change what it is. You got yourself an advantage over other players by altering the game. That has nothing to do with fair sportsmanship, where the skill should decide who is better.
Like hakenspit said, there is a reason why lifeforms have different FOV. If the devs add an option for everyone to change, in specific ranges and that keep the ratio between the life forms, than I'm fine with it. But crying a few weeks before release because your cheated changes doesn't work anymore is wrong. It's your own fault. You are a beta tester! You are supposed to find and voice the problems the game has. But what you do is hiding them only for yourself, so you can feel good by having an advantage against other players? Wow... just wow.
<!--quoteo(post=1983253:date=Sep 26 2012, 02:01 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Sep 26 2012, 02:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I suggest you send an email to the devs ASnogardD. They will tell you in no uncertain terms that if it wasn't for the open source game code, NS2 would not be ready to ship for another 6 months- 1 year. A huge amount of NS2 has been coded/bug-fixed by the community. As a long-time member of this forum I would have thought you would have seen this development.
NS2 absolutely required open sourcing the game code to get anywhere near the level of development it has. Your comments may be valid for UWE when they release their next game (and i'm 100% certain that won't have a 3 in the title), as they already now have a team etc set-up, but this game would be nowhere near ready if it wasn't for the open source code.
That is not conjecture, that is the way it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am aware that many fixes was suggested and implemented by the community, and those fixes came as mods initially but those are not mods as in changing the game to suit the modders idea but fixes to issue in the code. Those were helping the developers to get to the goals the developers wanted, not changing the game to other peoples visions.
I am speaking about mods that want to change the core of the game to something other than NS2 , like NS1 HD ... or altering visuals in game (so what one player sees is different than another). These mods are good and fine, but something for when NS2 has been out a bit.
The mods could of been implemented so you needed the cheat option on to test and see if your mod fixed bugs, but not allowed the mods to run on a server (with cheats disabled). If say for example ,FoV is such an issue then the feedback would of prompted Max and co to allow for a FoV slider, now instead its done via altering the script... and will most likely not be usable in release thanks to script consistancy checks... and on release there will be an outcry over the lack of FoV options ( probably not, I think Max and Dushan(sp ?!?) will add a lot more options for the release client ).
But my whole argument is moot, UWE did allow modding and we have to live with it... and obviously we need some form of checks to ensure the scripts doesnt allow for unfair play.
Every change that gives you an advantage over other players is to be considered as cheating and should therefor be forbidden.
I met someone that used three monitors with NS2, he saw like everything to his right and left. Even when you argue that his brain/eyes couldn't possibly use all the information of his three monitors, you can't deny the fact that he will notice changes to his sideviews and then check it out. He wouldn't do that with normal sight and therefore I strongly felt that things like this should be prevented.
I play Tribes: Ascend as well and I don't mind that you can adjust the FOV in a limited frame, cause everyone has the same option. That shouldn't be a problem, but everything beyond that is just ridiculous. <u>You</u> should adjust to the game and try to max out your possibilities to surpass other players. The game <u>should not</u> adjust to you. I say throw every player in the same room, give everyone a spiked club and see who is the strongest/luckiest. Everything else is just a confession to your own shortcoming.
And I don't understand the opposition. When you want all your little helpers or comforts, create a MOD, load it to a server and let everyone who joins use the same tricks. That should make you happy if you are not only aiming for an advantage for yourself. But I have seen many games with many crazy server modifications, most of them weren't attractive for the majority, so good luck with that.
<!--quoteo(post=1983273:date=Sep 26 2012, 07:28 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Sep 26 2012, 07:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983273"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you have a crosshair as onos and others don't, that is cheating. If you can only see skulks that try to flank you because of your higher FOV, that is cheating. If you have no disadvantage by muffled sound when low on health, that is cheating. If you can see enemies where normally would be fog, that is cheating. If you can see skulks in dark corners, because you made the model pink, that is cheating. If you see enemy players through walls because you made them transparent, that is cheating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Thats ridiculous. Its the center of your screen. Everyone knows that. Whats the difference between a crosshair or a piece of tape? 2. If everyone has the same option then how is it cheating? In build 221 we have a FOV slider and you still think its cheating???? 3. Duh 4. Yeah we already know that. 5. Really? Are you trolling? No one here would disagree that changing the color of a skulk is cheating. 6. Now you're just being a ######.
You are arguing about points that no one has an issue with. Also your vague accusation that good players all must be cheating is a little insulting and frankly not very smart. Do you really believe that?
The fact is that 98% of what the posters in this thread are arguing FOR are basic toggleable options that exist in MANY games already. i.e, FOV slider.
I've added support for client mods in 221. The way it works is very simple: When you connect to a server, the game will load any mod you are subscribed to in Workshop. If that mod fails the consistency check for the server, it will be unloaded.
For example, if you are subscribed to Huze's alien vision mod (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=98879398) and you connect to a server that isn't checking consistency on shaders/DarkVision.fx, you will get his modded alien vision. If the server is checking consistency on that file (which it will by default), then you won't get it. It's totally up to the sever operators whether or not they want to allow people to use certain types of mods.
So crosshair mods, replacement model mods (like KoujiSan's nostalgia pack, which I've been using for testing), even code mods are possible if the server operators allow it. I would expect most server operators to enforce consistency on Lua files, since they opens up cheating possibilities. Post 1.0 we'll be developing ways that we can support client-side code mods that don't allow cheating, but this will take some work. This will be pretty cool if we get it working, since I don't know of any first-person shooter that has done that before.
If you guys ever find the time could you just add a simple dot crosshair to the game that will show up for everything. I mean yah i can just use a mod but tbh i shouldn't need to go get a mod to get a good crosshair. Also maybe a auto balance feature. Seeing as people cry all the time about teams being "stacked".. I don't think these things would take a lot of time.
Also if you guys do add a auto balance. Make sure it doesn't switch the commander over.
<!--quoteo(post=1983332:date=Sep 26 2012, 05:48 PM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Max @ Sep 26 2012, 05:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983332"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For example, if you are subscribed to Huze's alien vision mod (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=98879398) and you connect to a server that isn't checking consistency on shaders/DarkVision.fx, you will get his modded alien vision. If the server is checking consistency on that file (which it will by default), then you won't get it. It's totally up to the sever operators whether or not they want to allow people to use certain types of mods.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is there any quick way of telling how random pub server XYZ is going to cooperate with my NS2? For example if I'm running 10 mods, how am I going to be able to tell which mods are functional on some random server I don't know? Am I able to filter out the servers that allow me to play with the mods I want?
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<a href="http://youtu.be/blZUao2jTGA" target="_blank">The reason why an adjustable FoV is necessary imo</a>. The short answer is that the comfortable FoV (i.e. one that doesn't make you sick) is based on your screen size and distance from monitor. Since UWE can't control this, the only reasonable option to ensure people don't get sick playing NS2 is to allow an adjustable FoV.
Additionally, having a more powerful computer gives people a competitive advantage in NS2, but we don't restrict people to only playing on something like a C2D. People just have to accept that other players are able to do small tweaks and adjustment that give them a slight edge in-game, but that these effects are mostly minor.
<!--quoteo(post=1983352:date=Sep 26 2012, 11:31 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Sep 26 2012, 11:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983352"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is it possible for servers to specifically grant permission to certain Workshop client mods?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not at the moment, but we know this is something that people are interested in and will try to get it implemented shortly after 1.0.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->just have 120fov as the max for the slider.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i can second this. i've played ut2004 TAM for several years, they had elaborate community-based anti-cheat software all over the servers. the software had all kinds of other checks to limit the ridicolous possibilities of editing your .ini-settings. FOVSs were allowed from 80 to 120. 120 took a while to get used to it, but i used it as my standard for several years as it made everything look nicely fast-paced.
Comments
(trololol)
edit: btw, what do i have to change in the clien.lua? At least I thought FoV changing was serverside only until today :X
On the other hand, patchday is tomorrow... (i guess) So i can also wait for that to play around.
maybe it's because every real competitive fps has higher fov than the default in ns2?
I can think of an elegant way to solve the issue: <i>steam workshop collections</i>
Have server owners put mods into a steam workshop collection. Have a server setting to specify a collection as a 'cosmetic mod whitelist'. The server will allow (but not require) any mod in the whitelist, and force consistency checks on these mods. If a server owner wants a pure vanilla server they can have one, but if they want to allow their players some flexibility they can whitelist popular mods.
Its based on monitor size, how far you sit from it, is it widescreen, 16:10 16:19, or 4:3
One fov fits all isnt never good at all.
Fov doesnt give any advantage competative wise, all old school FPS that was esport and pro scene could change fov, Quake 1, Team Fortress on Quake, Team Fortress Classic, Unreal Tournament.
And please for gods sake, if you add a slider let us know what the current value is, remember in Darkness 2, the idiots adds a fov slider but doesnt tell you the value its on, thats like having a speedometer in a car with just a needle but no numerical values rofl.
But else changing in config files is cheating but you gain an unfair advantage im pretty shocked that being are actually doing this, and not understanding they are cheating.
if you want to config something, it should be an option ingame for everyone, not some lua ini config hack whatever. So tell devs what options needs to be tweaked. But again people prefer not because they want to gain an advantage by turning off fog, shadow. that is unacceptable.
If it doesnt check textures, then there wont be long before someone adds in blank textures or something to basically wallhack, like in the counter strike days.
All comapnies should really unite in making one big good anticheat system for all games, instead of having to start from scratch each time, they could learn from each other. One of the most recent big titles ive seen massive cheating in was Batttlefield 3 wow oh wow, aimbot, wallhacks, flying cheat, getting under the map.
Even Blizzard cant get it right, people hacking in Starcraft 2 in Grandmaster and it can take up to 3 months before Blizzards gets off their butts to ban them.
Cheaters and hackers have it way to easy in modern games :(
I hope they are gonna put a lot of effort into preventing cheating and hacking in Natural selection 2.
I dont buy into that, devs set FOV for a reason...to make each lifeform unique and also have tradeoffs (ie to make it easier for aliens to ambush marines).
Sorry but FOV is something the developers set and is not a variable that players should be able to alter...it gives a player an unfair advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
According to whom? Considering the developers said they are adding the option in the next build, they seem to disagree. Besides, everyone will be able to change it, it's mainly personal.
<!--quoteo(post=1983122:date=Sep 25 2012, 08:12 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Sep 25 2012, 08:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You should not have a wider FOV in your 640x480 than I do in mine<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That sounds like "you should not have a different sensitivity in your game than a do in mine". Both of them don't make much sense.
CS 1.6 forced 90 FoV and it was bannable in most leagues to be caught with anything higher. The forced 90 FoV was the reason you would want to have a set aspect ratio if you used a widescreen in 1.6 because it would mess up the FoV and make your aim slightly off.
Edit: With the slider and consistency checks at least everyone will know to expect that everyone else has max FoV. So its not a huge deal to not have forced values.
Anyway just curious, is 90 not reasonable for alot of people? I would be for modified fov if the default was 60, but its not..
As far as competitive goes. Ns2 being an esport...really?...really
Having gone to the effor tof setting variable FOV for different lifeforms I think is enough indication of the devs intent.
Why should a marine have better FOV than a skulk? Its silly to say that the FOV restrictions are not part of what make the lifeforms unique and that by changing it your not altering how the game is meant to be played.
Its pretty common to see modified FOV's....does not make it right. Heck I used to use a higher FOV back in the day but with steam came consistency checks and this meant that FOV was locked down and like everyone else I just adapted.
<!--quoteo(post=1983181:date=Sep 26 2012, 04:00 PM:name=comp_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (comp_ @ Sep 26 2012, 04:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1983181"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That sounds like "you should not have a different sensitivity in your game than a do in mine". Both of them don't make much sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No I guess that one went over your head....if 2 players both use 640x480 they both have the image on their screen (assuming standing in same spot)...but if you modify the LUA and change your FOV then you can see more than someone who should have the same view.
Cant really take yourself as a serious competitive game when you allow FOV changes, this was why the valve started doing file consistency checks (to stop people white-walling, altering FOV etc) different resolutions and being able to change your FOV are 2 different things.
You can have a higher resolution support that might have slightly higher FOV or you can trim the top and bottom and just simply show in higher detail the same FOV (would not impact alien lifeforms at all).
changing the fov let you see that door/entry. Cheat.
Hope we'll only be able to decrease the fov in the options menu
changing the fov let you see that door/entry. Cheat.
Hope we'll only be able to decrease the fov in the options menu<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I use standard FoV and if you arent entirely dumb with where you sit on the powernode you can see the door on every node i know of.
The game is still in beta but due to modding players have modded out issues rather than highlight them for the devs to fix (or explain why they are 'broken' as they are), and rather than really see what the devs intended it gets 'fixed' rather than tested.
For example :
What is wrong with the vanilla crosshairs ? What does the modded ones do that the vanilla ones dont ? Why is this needed ?
... another reason modding prior to release was a mistake is that the vanilla version will be competing for parts of the player base right from launch, competing with mods that turn NS2 into NS1, Combat clones, CS clones etc etc.
The player base will be fractured at or shortly after launch.
I am NOT saying modding should not be allowed, but let the vanilla game get some time to shine before NS2 gets modded to hell and gone.
Yeah, I read the reasoning, didn't much like it. You do understand that the best maps have come from the community, as have the spectator mode (insight) and statistics (ns2stats). I think the newer alien vision was community side also first, and I'm sure there are a lot of other things that were made by community and incorporated into the game. You would fix a smaller problem by creating bigger problems.
I am not disputing community input or creations, but after the 1.0 launch... after the game has been tested and fixed up to a stable and ready for public consumption state.
I do think the mods are a great asset, especially ones like the insight one for spectating and casting... dont get me wrong here.
I do think though that there is cases where mods are bypassing the developers vision of the game... like for example (but not pointing spcifically at this mod) , custom crosshairs... what was wrong with the vanilla ones ? Cant we fix those rather than mod in new ones ?
Removing fog... so when I cant see into that foggy room to see the aliens, other guys can see clearly into that room ? Do these mods make it easier to see enemies ? Clear out aspects of the hud leaving more screen real estate (say taking out the exo hud, that would be a cheat in my eyes).
My point is that as testers we should of been getting the devs to fix the faults in the vanilla game, not modding the fixes into the game.... on release day is there going to be a list of needed mods for optimal gaming webbed to the top of the new player help section ?
The game can still be modded after 1.0... there is no rush to mod it NOW, I am not saying remove modding... I am saying it was a mistake to allow modding so early, now its hard to tell if the vanilla game is ready for launch or is it aceptable if you install xyz mods first.
NS2 absolutely required open sourcing the game code to get anywhere near the level of development it has. Your comments may be valid for UWE when they release their next game (and i'm 100% certain that won't have a 3 in the title), as they already now have a team etc set-up, but this game would be nowhere near ready if it wasn't for the open source code.
That is not conjecture, that is the way it is.
So what's the difference between changing FOV and changing resolution? Same result. I'll just buy 3 monitors and then have super wide fov. If you cut off vertical space instead then people who play on 4:3 resolutions will get the maximum space.
FOV isn't just about how much you can see, it's about what is comfortable for your eyes. You can't just have 1 size fits all or else a certain portion of players will get motion sickness.
I don't know why you keep talking about competitive gaming, you never heard of quake? Even in quake not all players play with the same FOV, some prefer high to see more around them, others play on low for more accurate aiming. As long as their are limits and everyone can set them in the options then I don't see how you can object. Certain graphics settings could also give you an advantage but we don't force people to play with everything maxed.
Tf2 has a meter in the options to adjust FOV between reasonable values. Anything outside of those values isn't allowed.
I feel like it is pointless arguing with you because you have made up your mind from back when you played games 10 years ago before widescreen monitors were even properly supported in games. You need to either give them more horizontal space or less vertical space, someone will always see a little bit more. They used to cut vertical space for widescreen monitors early in the beta but it was changed to give a more comfortable experience for those players. You could also argue that vertical space is more important in a game like ns2.
Of course changing lua files or increasing your fov beyond an acceptable amount shouldn't be allowed, but if someone playing at 4:3 wants to see the same as someone on 16:9 then I think they should be able to without buying a new monitor.
<b>Cheating: Altering the game to a state that is not intended by the devs and gives you an advantage over other players.</b>
If you have a crosshair as onos and others don't, that is cheating.
If you can only see skulks that try to flank you because of your higher FOV, that is cheating.
If you have no disadvantage by muffled sound when low on health, that is cheating.
If you can see enemies where normally would be fog, that is cheating.
If you can see skulks in dark corners, because you made the model pink, that is cheating.
If you see enemy players through walls because you made them transparent, that is cheating.
You can turn it as you want, that doesn't change what it is. You got yourself an advantage over other players by altering the game. That has nothing to do with fair sportsmanship, where the skill should decide who is better.
Like hakenspit said, there is a reason why lifeforms have different FOV. If the devs add an option for everyone to change, in specific ranges and that keep the ratio between the life forms, than I'm fine with it.
But crying a few weeks before release because your cheated changes doesn't work anymore is wrong. It's your own fault. You are a beta tester! You are supposed to find and voice the problems the game has. But what you do is hiding them only for yourself, so you can feel good by having an advantage against other players? Wow... just wow.
NS2 absolutely required open sourcing the game code to get anywhere near the level of development it has. Your comments may be valid for UWE when they release their next game (and i'm 100% certain that won't have a 3 in the title), as they already now have a team etc set-up, but this game would be nowhere near ready if it wasn't for the open source code.
That is not conjecture, that is the way it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am aware that many fixes was suggested and implemented by the community, and those fixes came as mods initially but those are not mods as in changing the game to suit the modders idea but fixes to issue in the code.
Those were helping the developers to get to the goals the developers wanted, not changing the game to other peoples visions.
I am speaking about mods that want to change the core of the game to something other than NS2 , like NS1 HD ... or altering visuals in game (so what one player sees is different than another). These mods are good and fine, but something for when NS2 has been out a bit.
The mods could of been implemented so you needed the cheat option on to test and see if your mod fixed bugs, but not allowed the mods to run on a server (with cheats disabled).
If say for example ,FoV is such an issue then the feedback would of prompted Max and co to allow for a FoV slider, now instead its done via altering the script... and will most likely not be usable in release thanks to script consistancy checks... and on release there will be an outcry over the lack of FoV options ( probably not, I think Max and Dushan(sp ?!?) will add a lot more options for the release client ).
But my whole argument is moot, UWE did allow modding and we have to live with it... and obviously we need some form of checks to ensure the scripts doesnt allow for unfair play.
Every change that gives you an advantage over other players is to be considered as cheating and should therefor be forbidden.
I met someone that used three monitors with NS2, he saw like everything to his right and left. Even when you argue that his brain/eyes couldn't possibly use all the information of his three monitors, you can't deny the fact that he will notice changes to his sideviews and then check it out. He wouldn't do that with normal sight and therefore I strongly felt that things like this should be prevented.
I play Tribes: Ascend as well and I don't mind that you can adjust the FOV in a limited frame, cause everyone has the same option. That shouldn't be a problem, but everything beyond that is just ridiculous. <u>You</u> should adjust to the game and try to max out your possibilities to surpass other players. The game <u>should not</u> adjust to you. I say throw every player in the same room, give everyone a spiked club and see who is the strongest/luckiest. Everything else is just a confession to your own shortcoming.
And I don't understand the opposition. When you want all your little helpers or comforts, create a MOD, load it to a server and let everyone who joins use the same tricks. That should make you happy if you are not only aiming for an advantage for yourself. But I have seen many games with many crazy server modifications, most of them weren't attractive for the majority, so good luck with that.
If you can only see skulks that try to flank you because of your higher FOV, that is cheating.
If you have no disadvantage by muffled sound when low on health, that is cheating.
If you can see enemies where normally would be fog, that is cheating.
If you can see skulks in dark corners, because you made the model pink, that is cheating.
If you see enemy players through walls because you made them transparent, that is cheating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Thats ridiculous. Its the center of your screen. Everyone knows that. Whats the difference between a crosshair or a piece of tape?
2. If everyone has the same option then how is it cheating? In build 221 we have a FOV slider and you still think its cheating????
3. Duh
4. Yeah we already know that.
5. Really? Are you trolling? No one here would disagree that changing the color of a skulk is cheating.
6. Now you're just being a ######.
You are arguing about points that no one has an issue with. Also your vague accusation that good players all must be cheating is a little insulting and frankly not very smart. Do you really believe that?
The fact is that 98% of what the posters in this thread are arguing FOR are basic toggleable options that exist in MANY games already. i.e, FOV slider.
For example, if you are subscribed to Huze's alien vision mod (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=98879398) and you connect to a server that isn't checking consistency on shaders/DarkVision.fx, you will get his modded alien vision. If the server is checking consistency on that file (which it will by default), then you won't get it. It's totally up to the sever operators whether or not they want to allow people to use certain types of mods.
So crosshair mods, replacement model mods (like KoujiSan's nostalgia pack, which I've been using for testing), even code mods are possible if the server operators allow it. I would expect most server operators to enforce consistency on Lua files, since they opens up cheating possibilities. Post 1.0 we'll be developing ways that we can support client-side code mods that don't allow cheating, but this will take some work. This will be pretty cool if we get it working, since I don't know of any first-person shooter that has done that before.
Also if you guys do add a auto balance. Make sure it doesn't switch the commander over.
Is there any quick way of telling how random pub server XYZ is going to cooperate with my NS2? For example if I'm running 10 mods, how am I going to be able to tell which mods are functional on some random server I don't know? Am I able to filter out the servers that allow me to play with the mods I want?
Additionally, having a more powerful computer gives people a competitive advantage in NS2, but we don't restrict people to only playing on something like a C2D. People just have to accept that other players are able to do small tweaks and adjustment that give them a slight edge in-game, but that these effects are mostly minor.
Not at the moment, but we know this is something that people are interested in and will try to get it implemented shortly after 1.0.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->just have 120fov as the max for the slider.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i can second this. i've played ut2004 TAM for several years, they had elaborate community-based anti-cheat software all over the servers. the software had all kinds of other checks to limit the ridicolous possibilities of editing your .ini-settings. FOVSs were allowed from 80 to 120. 120 took a while to get used to it, but i used it as my standard for several years as it made everything look nicely fast-paced.