Question about dying, and issues with it...
Dysto
Join Date: 2007-10-05 Member: 62545Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2007-10-05 Member: 62545Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Not sure where this belongs in the forums, on account of the fact that I'm not sure if it's my computer, the server, or the game.
But the thing is:
When I die, I rubberband to the place where someone killed me. I can be FAR on the other side of a wall, and when they kill me, it will rubberband me to the beginning of a corner, or something to that extent...
I have a I7 3.33 Ghz, Nvidia 580, with 12 gigs of RAM...this is not an issue of hardware...
Is it a server issue? I always play on a server that has >120 latency. Is this just a game issue that needs to be worked through? Will someone explain or direct me to a link to explain any of this? I am extremely frustrated with dying when I am clearing not near the area that I died in.
But the thing is:
When I die, I rubberband to the place where someone killed me. I can be FAR on the other side of a wall, and when they kill me, it will rubberband me to the beginning of a corner, or something to that extent...
I have a I7 3.33 Ghz, Nvidia 580, with 12 gigs of RAM...this is not an issue of hardware...
Is it a server issue? I always play on a server that has >120 latency. Is this just a game issue that needs to be worked through? Will someone explain or direct me to a link to explain any of this? I am extremely frustrated with dying when I am clearing not near the area that I died in.
Comments
My speed: <a href="http://www.speedtest.net" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.speedtest.net/result/2209098569.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
Is it that people kill you around corners even if you are way behind them already? That is due to every single player having his own version of reality. If you shoot something on your screen it will hit, even if the player is actually somewhere completely different on his screen. This is just the networking model that NS2 uses which prevents having to lead targets depending on your ping, but heavily favors the person attacking first regardless of ping.
Is it that you just rubberband and get stuck on corners? Haven't really experienced that unless the server was bugged (32 tickrate) or just can't keep up with the game (<20 tickrate) or I have above 200 ping. You can check the server tickrate with net_stats in console.
Actually you should be rubberbanding all the time with this, not only on death.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is it that people kill you around corners even if you are way behind them already? That is due to every single player having his own version of reality. If you shoot something on your screen it will hit, even if the player is actually somewhere completely different on his screen. This is just the networking model that NS2 uses which prevents having to lead targets depending on your ping, but heavily favors the person attacking first regardless of ping.
Is it that you just rubberband and get stuck on corners? Haven't really experienced that unless the server was bugged (32 tickrate) or just can't keep up with the game (<20 tickrate) or I have above 200 ping. You can check the server tickrate with net_stats in console.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So that's what NS2 decides to do? Favor the person firing, over the person with the better connection to the server? That seems kind of insane? I don't mean to be difficult, but could you explain how this is a good thing?
Max' goal was to make an engine that doesn't favor people with better pings as far as I remember from some interview. While it is good in terms of fairness (The person that <i>actually </i>shot first should have the first hit, shouldn't it?), I personally never had problems getting low ping servers in any game, so I don't quite know what his intention was. At least in Quake, Goldsrc or Source I never felt to have a disandvantage when the other player had a 20 ping and I had 50 or so. In UT games I never got the feeling for the netcode really, so I couldn't comment those.
Well, I never had to play with a ping higher than 70 in the last 6 years I think. Are there still many people who have to (other than Southafrica)?
EDIT: Quick answer: No, it isn't insane, why should it be? It's fair.
You are penalizing the player with better ping, how is that fair?
Maybe next time try and avoid hanging your life on a tenth of a second in your corner-turning.
Maybe next time try and avoid hanging your life on a tenth of a second in your corner-turning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you are saying is that I need to adjust play even though it's not my fault.... someone earlier said that's fair...how and why? Why is this better then having the person with better ping the disadvantage?
There is problem with lags, that's for sure. <strike>But how do you come to the conclusion that a lower ping equals disandvantage? The goal is to treat both equally.</strike>
EDIT: Now i've got your point. Yeah, good question. I'll shut up and watch the conversation :D
EDIT: Now i've got your point. Yeah, good question. I'll shut up and watch the conversation :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completely understand the "I live in X place and I don't have many servers around me," or I even, "I live on the west coast, and it's X time and no one plays at this time so I need to play on an east coast server." Still, why punish the person with the lower ping? I'm not sure I understand the reasoning...
Man, this conversation reminds me of playing Half-Life 1, when the dreaded "netcode" got added back in the late 90s. It was nice to not have to lead targets by your ping time, at least.
It's also rather stupid if you have to shoot thin air to hit a fast moving target on your screen. Especially because of the extreme speeds attainable in NS2 and the rapidly changing directions while dodging it would be impossible to hit anything. Even with very low ping you would encounter a lot of issues without this kind of lag compensation.
You shoot what is on your screen and you hit it. That is the goal of this networking model and it has been working pretty well for the past few years in many many games.
You have to realize that there is no perfect way to simulate a consistent world across the globe without any issues.
Man, this conversation reminds me of playing Half-Life 1, when the dreaded "netcode" got added back in the late 90s. It was nice to not have to lead targets by your ping time, at least.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess this is coming from a completely ignorant stance, as far as coding goes...but why can't the server decide who's right? As oppose to client side? So the server says "Player W is in X position, and Player Y is in Z position... is that too much? If so, why does low ping still have to have a disadvantage? I still don't understand it, if you have high ping, shouldn't you be expect to lead targets? Because that's your choice if you want to join a high ping server?
Easy solution to this problem is simply to have a limit on latency, by kicking high pingers. Oh so many MP games in my life have done just this, on a per server basis.
This is coming from someone who cant get less than 100 ms latency on any of his servers, for the record. :)
You can aim directly at players and hit, like every other first person shooter made after 1999. If you have 50 ms latency and 100 ms interpolation and the enemy is running at 5 m/s, you will have to aim 0.75 meters out in front of them. If they turn unpredictably it's even worse, now you have to predict where they're going to be in 150 ms.
I challenge you to find a modern FPS without lag compensation.
If you have the original half-life on steam you can play valve's "deathmatch classic" mod, it doesn't have lag compensation. Please try it. Without lag compensation NS2 is only playable on LAN.
It's symmetric.
If they have 200 ms latency, you have 50 ms latency, the server takes 50 ms average betwen ticks and you have 100 ms interp you will both see each other 400 ms in the past.
If you peek around a corner you have 400 ms to shoot them in the face before they are even able to see or hit you. If they peek around a corner they have 400 ms to shoot you in the face before you even see them.
If they round a corner you have 400 ms to shoot them before they round the corner on your screen. If you round a corner they have 400 ms to shoot you before you round the corner on their screen.
If you run and they run after you, they see you were you were 400 ms ago so the distance between you appears much shorter than on your screen. If they run and you run after, you see them where they were 400 ms ago, they appear much closer on your screen than you do on theirs.
Latency is not an advantage. HPBs are annoying, but are clearly at a disadvantage(poor reg, lag compensation is less than perfect due to variance in latency)
I especially would like everyone to imagine having to lead targets with <b>melee attacks</b>. I'm not sure how that would even be remotely possible.
At this point I'll just take your word for it...although it still doesn't make much sense to me. If it is symmetric I guess that's just the way it is. Just doesn't feel symmetric. Now that I think about it, my favorite Alien is the lerk, and up until 221, celerity + lerk = crazy fast... I suppose I could have been noticing it more?
The server can't just make stuff up, it can't extrapolate way into the future. In order to send you a current, updated position the server has to have processed all movement commands sent to the server by that player up to that time. Information has to travel from that player, to the server and from the server to you. The latency from you to him is exactly the same as the latency from him to you; you're both seeing a "ghost from the past".
If you go lerk and fly through a room with a high ping ######. You stay in the room 2 seconds, he sees you stay in the room 2 seconds. The only difference is that he sees you enter the room half a second later than you did and he sees you leave the room half a second later than you really did. If he kills you, he did not really kill you around the corner; you were already dead, you just didn't know it yet.
he did not really kill you around the corner; you were already dead, you just didn't know it yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This!
...to keep both sides happy :)
...to keep both sides happy :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure there are no both sides to this. There is(was?) a command to turn off lag compensation in goldsrc and src(sv_unlag). Nobody ever turns that off unless they're on a lan.
Hopefully the developers find a way to optimize the netcode and allow for MUCH lower interp and lag compensation. Counter-strike source is not a good game to base interp off of either... since its god awful in that game.
Counter-strike 1.6 is probably the best game in terms of interpolation settings. You pretty much can only get hit if the other person shoots at where you actually are... that is if the server has its rates set up... and all clients are using a .01 interp setting.
Any game using the half-life engine has excellent netcode and registry, when the servers are set up correctly.
I know this game is sending a lot more data than HL but still isn't much of an excuse to have interp up in the 100-200 ms range. That is the exact reason why you are getting hit around corners. It happens a lot in BF3 too... both this game and BF3 have a lot of network traffic and calculations to make, but that doesn't mean it can't be made better.
I get it too, being killed around corners getting shot when im behind my target.
It's just a matter of knowledge. There are some physical restrictions in playing games over the Internet. It's a little math-miracle that it even works in "seems-to-be-realtime". Problem is, because of this simulation most people don't understand that it is physically impossible to have real realtime.
A solution? Just adapt to it. If you know, that there is half a second difference between you and your enemy, you need to round this corner with more health. You need to retreat half a second earlier. You need to step aside this leaping skulk a half second before he is in bite range. If you know this, it is easy to change your behavior.