The competitive NS2 good vibes thread!
fanatic
This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
As there was a bit of negative fallout and rage after the last match of the blind tournament, which I personally thought got really overblown, I thought I'd put up a thread where we can talk about more positive things. That doesn't mean that we should stop giving feedback or anything like that -- I certainly won't, but I think it would be nice to also have a place to talk about what we enjoy about the competitive scene right now.
This is a bit silly obviously, but I'm a bit tired of all the "competitive ns2" discussions being about new tournaments, balance or feedback. Not exactly sure what we'll see in this thread, but hopefully it will incite some discussions about other subjects. I'd prefer it if this didn't turn into another balance debate, but there's nothing I can say or do to control that, so here goes...
Putting this in the general discussion forum since I'd like non-competitive players to post here as well, questions about comp play would be great.
This is a bit silly obviously, but I'm a bit tired of all the "competitive ns2" discussions being about new tournaments, balance or feedback. Not exactly sure what we'll see in this thread, but hopefully it will incite some discussions about other subjects. I'd prefer it if this didn't turn into another balance debate, but there's nothing I can say or do to control that, so here goes...
Putting this in the general discussion forum since I'd like non-competitive players to post here as well, questions about comp play would be great.
Comments
I'm very happy to see that duplex are properly back in action. They were having some problems a couple of months back, but now they're looking very good. They've recruited a lot of good players and have improved their play a lot lately. Look forward to seeing where they're going in the future. I was particularly impressed that they were able to beat exertus in the tie breaker in tournament today. Exertus had a pretty bad weekend though and I suspect we'll see them back in force in the next tournament.
Hg also did really well and came very close to even sneaking into the final. For a while I even thought they might make it, but they made a few mistakes that let exertus get back into the game. In any case I'm very happy to see a relatively new team do so well. Daedal is another new team I look forward to seeing play. I've seen some of their individual players play, and they definitely have potential.
In general I think the EU scene has been growing steadily the last month, which is very nice to see. We still have a long way to go before we have enough teams to say that it's truly competitive, but the progress is nice. The US scene seems to have taken a bit of a downturn lately, though. It's very nice to see nexzil doing well, but other than that there's a lot of inactive teams and no new teams forming, at least not that I've noticed. I heard Inversion may have fixed their commander problem, so hopefully we'll see them participating in a tournament soon.
In the players department, I think eagleye (archaea) doesn't get enough credit. He's both an amazing marine and skulk and has been instrumental in our success as a team so far. Some players from other teams who have really impressed me the last few months include elmo (exertus), gorgeous and rantology (inversion), wiry (duplex) and nsidia (nexzil). Definitely players to watch out for.
Blow's (eod) marine round against cyd in the blind tournament was crazy enough to be worth mentioning. Some of the people watching the blind tournament may also have noticed Tane (archaea) playing, one of the truly legendary NS1 players, and you will definitely be seeing some crazy stuff from him in the future. Light (duplex) is another interesting player; a good example of duplex recruiting new talent and building a solid team.
I haven't watched the games yet but to hear tane playing is quite exciting :) It's always a good idea to highlight good players and acknowledge them, gives others a reason to try hard and put the effort in to reach the top 1% of the game.
Edit:
Damn blow had a great game! - 86/16 BOOM HEADSHOT
I too agree that it's very nice to see how the EU scene is growing. Just before summer I think there were only exertus, archaea and duplex that was playing at all. I hope that there will be loads of new teams forming thanks to all the good casters that are delivering the game to a broader audience.
Thanks to all teams participating, all the casters, referees, viewers and developers.
<3
#gorge
Kudos to all the participating teams and the awesome casters who are making this possible.
Not only is the action reasonably fast paced, it is also full of surprises with rushes possible at any moment. It also holds the potential for knife-edge situations, that could go either way- like the Arc v duplex G3, that are incredibly fun to watch (but exhausting to play!).
I really enjoyed watching the cup this weekend!
I'll also reaffirm what Fana has said about the NA scene. It's near dead and we need some work to revive it. Right now, nxzl is the most active NA team. Inversion is becoming more active, but suffers from a very inactive community. It's hard to play when our only opponents are nxzl. It's also very hard for us to play with euros because we have 2-3 players who ping 200+ to the euro servers. We've recruited more players and you guys (viewers and euros) can expect to see us more active in the coming tournaments. That puts NA up to 2 active teams.
A third is coming up, though! NC (the norcal guys) have been recruiting and scrimming. While they haven't played in any tournaments lately, I have seen them practicing hard with nxzl. They're improving their roster and their teamwork. I hope to see them in the upcoming tournaments.
We still need more NA teams.
I'd also like to shoutout RWD. I've merced for and against them a few times in the past couple weeks. They're another up and coming euro team who have been quickly fleshing out their roster and improving their teamwork.
We still need more NA teams.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, we have been practicing with nxzl almost every night.
Arc, well you guys I'm running out of things to say :p really enjoyed seeing some new players come in an out of the roster too!
NA teams are around but as Scardy said they aren't ready for the limelight bit I believe you'll see them more in the near future.
Everyone keep up the amazing work an keep having fun! You are amazing to watch and even more fun to cast!
My transition to NS2 from NS1 and L4D2 has been easy as possible thanks to my team mates and clans I have merced. It’s quite refreshing to be â€just†another player in squad and even if I can use my experience to my advantage, there are new things to learn. I have been impressed how high Fana has already taken marine skill level: simple the best marine right now (we will see how long :D). Archae indeed have advantage over other clans because we have so many former high level NS1 players, for example it doesn’t surprise me that eagleye is a monster as skulk. Insane was famous from their humor and skulk play and I hope we can see more Insane players making comeback to NS2 (what NS is without tutu?!). But in overall every player in Archae has impressed me greatly.
Same goes to Exertus, Dublex and HG. It’s strange and fantastic to see Finnish clan rising to high level, the last Finnish clan to do that was Levitacus. I can sense same kind of mentality in Exertus: improving fast from every game. I think HG surprised us all in BBC. Really fast improvement in every area of the game; great job guys. Dublex was worthy rival in finals. Unfortunately this was my first game against you guys, so I don’t really know you, but nevertheless you made us fight for the title.
In overall competitive EU scene is in better health than I expected.
The skills of the players obviously helps, but seeing an FPS from the overhead perspective really makes it possible to watch and enjoy these amazing players and get a sense of the whole flow of the game.
My knowledge and understanding of NS2 gets better with every game I watch, even if my skills don't, lol.
I'd like to mention my own favorite NS2 player at the moment - Scrajm. The best commander in NS2 currently? Certainly the best I've seen comm. I really need to learn how he does it!
Anyway, great work guys. I'm working hard to get my friends at Mint-Clan into NS2. Currently no1 ranked UK CS:GO clan. Former top CS, CS:S and they are looking for a new game... I have got their clan leader very interested in NS2, and given him my free copy, so hopefully at least one more comp team will be coming on board after release!
Looking forward to seeing the Competitive scene explode after launch, and who knows, I may even get good enough to be involved with someone's 'D' Team, hahaha..
You can never have enough Quaxy. Even internal Quaxy gathers had too little Quaxy in them.
(great games, by the way! It was really exciting to watch.)
That would be a topic for another thread. I'm sure there is one, just can't find one right now. Please provide a link and we can discuss this there?
There are a lot of past NS1 players, b1 and wltrs amongst them, who bought the alpha and have been following the development of NS2 ever since it was first announced. Unfortunately, many them have been very disappointed with the development and direction of the game, and while they try it every once in a while, they don't find it enjoyable enough to play it seriously. I talked to b1 about it only a few weeks ago, and that was still his impression of NS2.
Hopefully that will change as further improvements are made and the game tightens up before release!
#gorge<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I demand a frag movie starring those who mastered the art of gorging!
There is a threshold to playing clans aforementioned where it is not a learning experience and detrimental to both teams. #156 and 420 scrim each other almost every weekend and it is a blast. We have been doing 7v7 a lot of times when our rosters can accommodate it (not because this is how we think it should be, but we enjoy playing with one another so much we add the extra players so no one is left out.). Bottom line is we will never get better unless we break this barrier.
So for a more direct question what in your opinion is required to win for teams such as Duplex, Exert, or Arc and what did it take to get where you are? Are there any straight forward strats emerging like in NS1 (hive gorge, rt/fade ect ect) like you have a hive gorge with hydras, a designated RT muncher, or do you even split the map into areas of responsibility? I'm not asking for clans to give up their secrets or anything, just help us struggling clans out.
Now with all that said i know in 156 we could practice a lot more and maybe that is all it takes, but can you ease the transition for us?
<i>Though i am a low level player something that improved my gameplay was lowering my resolution from 1920x1080 to 1280x720. From what i am told it improves my fill rate and in combat i can actually track skulks! No slide show. Even with settings at low i was have a horrid time in close combat.</i>
<!--quoteo(post=1985644:date=Oct 1 2012, 05:00 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Oct 1 2012, 05:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1985644"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As others have stated there are two NA clans that come to mind out there and scrimming but not ready for top tier teams. I personally would love some pointers to improve my gameplay personally. This brings up an interesting point on whether or not you top level players are willing to divulge your secrets and tactics in the hopes or raising the skills of clans that arent quite there yet. Nothing top secret of course but i would love to see a Live Stream (twitch.tv) from Fana or Tane (or both, Fanta) so i can ingrain some of the things you guys do naturally.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't mind giving general pointers, which is something I did on a regular basis in NS1 as well. Live stream is out of the question for me though; recording murders my fps. Hopefully the demo recording system will be working properly at some point, in which case everybody will be forced to record their officials and I'm sure many will post them online.
<!--quoteo(post=1985644:date=Oct 1 2012, 05:00 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Oct 1 2012, 05:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1985644"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is a threshold to playing clans aforementioned where it is not a learning experience and detrimental to both teams. #156 and 420 scrim each other almost every weekend and it is a blast. We have been doing 7v7 a lot of times when our rosters can accommodate it (not because this is how we think it should be, but we enjoy playing with one another so much we add the extra players so no one is left out.). Bottom line is we will never get better unless we break this barrier.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can tell you right now that scrimming "every weekend" isn't going to cut it. If you're aiming to be the best, or to improve to the point where you can compete with the best, you need to be scrimming almost every day, preferably several scrims. You also need to do it in the accepted competitive format (6v6), anything else is a waste of time. Finding enough opponents for that right now is a problem, however, so public play is a "better than nothing" substitute.
If you're just aiming to have a little fun every now and then, that's perfectly respectable of course, but you'll never get good doing it like that.
To quote cArn, a former CS 1.6 professional: "Practise is fundamentally important and the reason why you will reach consistency in your game. Of course there will be people requiring less practise than others, but generally the ones that can struggle through the most practice will be a stronger contender for the medals, simple as that."
Malcolm Gladwell posits in his book Outliers, that to excel in an art, whatever it may be, you need at least 10,000 hours of practice at it early in life. While that may be taking it to the extreme; it gets the point across. Becoming good at something doesn't magically just happen if you believe in it hard enough, it actually takes a lot of effort and it isn't always fun.
<!--quoteo(post=1985644:date=Oct 1 2012, 05:00 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Oct 1 2012, 05:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1985644"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So for a more direct question what in your opinion is required to win for teams such as Duplex, Exert, or Arc and what did it take to get where you are? Are there any straight forward strats emerging like in NS1 (hive gorge, rt/fade ect ect) like you have a hive gorge with hydras, a designated RT muncher, or do you even split the map into areas of responsibility? I'm not asking for clans to give up their secrets or anything, just help us struggling clans out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Strategies and tactics are a very fiddly bit of course, since different teams have different ways of doing things. In general though, it isn't possible to do specific "areas of responsibility", since gameplay evolves dynamically, the players also have to adapt dynamically to the changing requirements. While having a commander barking orders whenever needed can help, and is necessary to a point, it's both impossible and ineffective to micromanage the players, meaning it's up to the players to know what to do and what to not do under any given circumstances.
As for specific strategies, the obvious one at the moment is instant hive drop with one or two gorges dropping hydras at the building hive and/or starting hive resnode, then leap research, then one res node at the second hive, then carapace research, then one comm-dropped onos, and finally, if you survive this long, more resnodes, blink research, comm-dropped fades, celerity research, and whatever else you may need to end the game.
There is a threshold to playing clans aforementioned where it is not a learning experience and detrimental to both teams. #156 and 420 scrim each other almost every weekend and it is a blast. We have been doing 7v7 a lot of times when our rosters can accommodate it (not because this is how we think it should be, but we enjoy playing with one another so much we add the extra players so no one is left out.). Bottom line is we will never get better unless we break this barrier.
So for a more direct question what in your opinion is required to win for teams such as Duplex, Exert, or Arc and what did it take to get where you are? Are there any straight forward strats emerging like in NS1 (hive gorge, rt/fade ect ect) like you have a hive gorge with hydras, a designated RT muncher, or do you even split the map into areas of responsibility? I'm not asking for clans to give up their secrets or anything, just help us struggling clans out.
Now with all that said i know in 156 we could practice a lot more and maybe that is all it takes, but can you ease the transition for us?
<i>Though i am a low level player something that improved my gameplay was lowering my resolution from 1920x1080 to 1280x720. From what i am told it improves my fill rate and in combat i can actually track skulks! No slide show. Even with settings at low i was have a horrid time in close combat.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Scrimming with better opponents will make you get better also :)
I don't mind giving general pointers, which is something I did on a regular basis in NS1 as well. Live stream is out of the question for me though; recording murders my fps. Hopefully the demo recording system will be working properly at some point, in which case everybody will be forced to record their officials and I'm sure many will post them online.
I can tell you right now that scrimming "every weekend" isn't going to cut it. If you're aiming to be the best, or to improve to the point where you can compete with the best, you need to be scrimming almost every day, preferably several scrims. You also need to do it in the accepted competitive format (6v6), anything else is a waste of time. Finding enough opponents for that right now is a problem, however, so public play is a "better than nothing" substitute.
If you're just aiming to have a little fun every now and then, that's perfectly respectable of course, but you'll never get good doing it like that.
To quote cArn, a former CS 1.6 professional: "Practise is fundamentally important and the reason why you will reach consistency in your game. Of course there will be people requiring less practise than others, but generally the ones that can struggle through the most practice will be a stronger contender for the medals, simple as that."
Malcolm Gladwell posits in his book Outliers, that to excel in an art, whatever it may be, you need at least 10,000 hours of practice at it early in life. While that may be taking it to the extreme; it gets the point across. Becoming good at something doesn't magically just happen if you believe in it hard enough, it actually takes a lot of effort and it isn't always fun.
Strategies and tactics are a very fiddly bit of course, since different teams have different ways of doing things. In general though, it isn't possible to do specific "areas of responsibility", since gameplay evolves dynamically, the players also have to adapt dynamically to the changing requirements. While having a commander barking orders whenever needed can help, and is necessary to a point, it's both impossible and ineffective to micromanage the players, meaning it's up to the players to know what to do and what to not do under any given circumstances.
As for specific strategies, the obvious one at the moment is instant hive drop with one or two gorges dropping hydras at the building hive and/or starting hive resnode, then leap research, then one res node at the second hive, then carapace research, then one comm-dropped onos, and finally, if you survive this long, more resnodes, blink research, comm-dropped fades, celerity research, and whatever else you may need to end the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you bring up an excellent point that i have been overlooking or glazing over with ideas of Tactics > Skill. Individual responsibility when it comes to improving at the game. I refuse to be a part of a team where we are "Carried" by one player and get wins that way, just as i refuse to be a team that wins only by catching the better team off guard for a cheap win. As your post kindly states, i need to improve as a player, put the time in, and stop thinking there is a magical strat or method that will allow me to excel. This game is like everything else in life, practice makes perfect.
A couple things people could look at in a step by step process to improve (correct me if i order these incorrectly or dont add a needed element.)
1. Hardware/software - If you cant track a skulk because you get 10 fps it will hinder your play no matter how good you get.
2. Game Mechanics - Learn what is good in what situation. You cant expect a gorge to go 50-1 just as you cant expect the flame thrower to be the solo onos killer.
3. Strategic Targets/Experience - Bite that RT or chew the power node? Axe down that cyst or push into the hive alone? Know when doing one is reckless and one is conservative play.
4. Patience - Meet the enemy where it is an advantage to you.
Past these it comes down to teamwork and strats/build orders.
I have changed #1 - #3 for myself. I try to learn as much as i can each patch and what is viable. #4 still kicks my butt and is something i would love to learn from the top marines/aliens. I can get kills now but through my decisions i also usually build up the most deaths. Taking corners wide, reloading instead of switching to my axe (very bad habit...), wasting ammo on targets trying to make me do just that, and engaging aliens down hallways maximizing my range vs melee (and vice verse with aliens). I have a lot of bad habits i am trying to change. What in your opinion Fana would be some good habits to adopt that you might take as "no brainers" =)
edit*
<!--quoteo(post=1985690:date=Oct 1 2012, 05:18 PM:name=bLink`)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bLink` @ Oct 1 2012, 05:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1985690"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Scrimming with better opponents will make you get better also :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply the opposite. You are completely right. What I meant was, say #156 scrimming Arc. We would get stomped and stomped hard. They would get rusty playing us all the time from lack of a challenge and we would just get demoralized through repeated beatings. Just like in NS with the division of skill with two different ladders. I am not explaining this well enough for my taste so ignore my babblings lol.
2. Game Mechanics - Learn what is good in what situation. You cant expect a gorge to go 50-1 just as you cant expect the flame thrower to be the solo onos killer.
3. Strategic Targets/Experience - Bite that RT or chew the power node? Axe down that cyst or push into the hive alone? Know when doing one is reckless and one is conservative play.
4. Patience - Meet the enemy where it is an advantage to you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All good points.
<!--quoteo(post=1985663:date=Oct 2 2012, 02:36 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 2 2012, 02:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1985663"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't mind giving general pointers, which is something I did on a regular basis in NS1 as well. Live stream is out of the question for me though; recording murders my fps. Hopefully the demo recording system will be working properly at some point, in which case everybody will be forced to record their officials and I'm sure many will post them online.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An idea crossed my mind after I saw this thread (thanks for making it btw fana, it's awesome to see some smiley faces from the competitive community):
I'd love to see a semi-regular column or podcast that idly discusses the state of the competitive scene and the pros/cons of popular tactics & strategies. What would also be nice is (as opposed to just complaining about changes) some discussion on the tactical & strategic implications of changes.