<!--quoteo(post=1986085:date=Oct 2 2012, 01:54 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Oct 2 2012, 01:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986085"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Maybe if aliens didn't start with extra eggs and they grew at a slower rate, so dying early as a skulk would actually mean something?</b> If beacons were silent for aliens or had less delay they wouldn't be a problem later in the game. Then it would just be a case of getting outplayed. Welders do seem to need a good buffing though, I haven't used one more than once since the patch where you didn't need them for power nodes anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Was thinking the same thing about having less eggs in the start so there would be some kind of delay when getting the whole team killed.
I think starting with 0 eggs could actually work really well. One of the frustrating parts of the egg system as a marine is trying to bleed it down low enough that it becomes meaningful. Aliens should have to build up spawn security by staying alive, not have it handed to them at game start.
<!--quoteo(post=1986172:date=Oct 2 2012, 04:36 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Oct 2 2012, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986172"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think starting with 0 eggs could actually work really well. One of the frustrating parts of the egg system as a marine is trying to bleed it down low enough that it becomes meaningful. Aliens should have to build up spawn security by staying alive, not have it handed to them at game start.
Someone go bug Charlie about this. =P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's definitely going to help in punishing the base rushes, but it's also going to highlight the problems that lead to aliens rushing the base in the first place. Skulks need to be more viable without leap.
The skill ceiling is so low for skulks that its really hard to advance your play and counter even half-decent marines, unless you just mob with skulks or get a good ambush. Honestly i feel like all the aliens are that way and it makes playing aliens really frustrating....
If you got rid of eggs at start it would mean that if the marines go for a quick push on the first hive with 4 players and the aliens fail to stop it, the game is over.
Not neccesarily. It would take time for the Marines to get to the hive, and during that time the Skulks are free to hit their base and win the game, making rushing very dangerous. Additionally, the hive would be generating eggs as the Marines are en-route to it, so they wouldn't arrive to find an eggless room ripe for the murdering.
Both Skulks and Marines should be able to all-in, and both forms of rushes should have their penalties. Skulks lose map security and take a while to spawn back in. Marines risk losing the game to a counter-rush and delaying their res. Seems balanced to me.
<!--quoteo(post=1985784:date=Oct 1 2012, 11:44 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 1 2012, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1985784"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It shouldn't be hard at all, but it will also ensure that competitive ns2 never gets any bigger than competitive ns1 was. Unfortunately, we need the main game to succeed and we need it to succeed for competitive play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree wholeheartedly.
Do you think a Beacon cancel would improve things? The beacon could cancel in ns1. Here it does not..
Beacon cancel is bad, mmkay. One of the reasons Bacon can be so powerful (and delicious) is that you have to commit to it. Plus, I just think it's more fun to play and watch when the alarm is a definitive "everyone is coming back NOW" signal.
Though beacon cancelling could lead to coms trying to fake out enemy teams with the alert, which could be fun...
<!--quoteo(post=1986200:date=Oct 2 2012, 10:19 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Oct 2 2012, 10:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986200"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Beacon cancel is bad, mmkay. One of the reasons Bacon can be so powerful (and delicious) is that you have to commit to it. Plus, I just think it's more fun to play and watch when the alarm is a definitive "everyone is coming back NOW" signal.
Though beacon cancelling could lead to coms trying to fake out enemy teams with the alert, which could be fun...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And not have to stunt yourself 10 res each time an enemy decides to fake out your Beacon if you start it as soon as you see 5 dots inbound.
I think an issue right now is that base trading is almost <b>ALWAYS </b>in the Aliens favor. You may bang their 2nd hive but if they get your base, you lose all upgrades and any way to spawn in. They keep their upgrades and can still spawn from the 1st hive without issue. Or even back at the 2nd hive location with Shift play.
A quick relocation can solve this issue, but that's only on certain maps. On Veil that typically isn't an option.
Faking out beacons is a legitimate strategy. It's an annoying one for Marines, but the ability for Marines to instantly appear to defend their base from anywhere on the map or in death is annoying for aliens. If they've got enough people near your base to force a beacon, they've left the rest of the map open, so either call some of your people back to base without beaconing, or pay the price for not having anyone near your base to defend it.
You can't send every unit you own far enough away that they can't protect you, then complain about how much it costs to stop the enemy from steamrolling your base. This applies whether or not the enemy is actually planning to murder your base; if you beaconed, it seemed to you like you were about to get swarmed. In any other RTS, you wouldn't have a magic teleport button to save yourself from your own overextension.
<!--quoteo(post=1986212:date=Oct 2 2012, 09:31 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Oct 2 2012, 09:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986212"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Faking out beacons is a legitimate strategy. It's an annoying one for Marines, but the ability for Marines to instantly appear to defend their base from anywhere on the map or in death is annoying for aliens. If they've got enough people near your base to force a beacon, they've left the rest of the map open, so either call some of your people back to base without beaconing, or pay the price for not having anyone near your base to defend it.
You can't send every unit you own far enough away that they can't protect you, then complain about how much it costs to stop the enemy from steamrolling your base. This applies whether or not the enemy is actually planning to murder your base; if you beaconed, it seemed to you like you were about to get swarmed. In any other RTS, you wouldn't have a magic teleport button to save yourself from your own overextension.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sadly, some RTS games like Dawn of War II, do have that button. That's besides the point though. But anyways, I agree that overextension should be a risk but I still think there's a ton to be gained from the Aliens base trading and not much lost.
Thanks to the magic and wonder of Phase Gates and Persistant Upgrades, Marines not only don't have to worry about defending just one base, they can also re-climb their tech tree for fractions of the price it originally took them. Meanwhile, aliens must re-research all abilities and upgrades from scratch after replacing their structures.
Mechanically speaking, base-trading favors marines if all other things are random. I think the issue here is that aliens are letting Marines take out a base that they don't mind losing as much, while also destroying the base the marines care the most about. That's not a base-trading imbalance, it's marines getting outplayed.
<!--quoteo(post=1986225:date=Oct 2 2012, 10:52 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Oct 2 2012, 10:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986225"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks to the magic and wonder of Phase Gates and Persistant Upgrades, Marines not only don't have to worry about defending just one base, they can also re-climb their tech tree for fractions of the price it originally took them. Meanwhile, aliens must re-research all abilities and upgrades from scratch after replacing their structures.
Mechanically speaking, base-trading favors marines if all other things are random. I think the issue here is that aliens are letting Marines take out a base that they don't mind losing as much, while also destroying the base the marines care the most about. That's not a base-trading imbalance, it's marines getting outplayed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're talking about upgrade chambers that require being researched again, abilities actually stay on the Aliens until they die or until you get the 2nd hive back up at no further cost. Upgrades also stay on the Aliens until they die. With power lost, Marines lose all abilities and upgrades instantly and would have to return to base (instantly die to upgraded aliens since w0/a0) to get the power back on.
I still don't think it's Marines getting outplayed entirely. If Marines snipe upgrades, the Aliens still have to DIE, come back again to be disadvantaged. Kill the Marine power while they are hitting your Hive, they go down to w0/a0 and are easy picks for Fades that may return or already be present in Hive defense.
Anyways, I think the solution is probably for Marines to buff up the 2nd expansion base with a 2nd arms lab and other structures. I have Commanded games against the base rush tactic in competitive games now and I think the relocate/2nd base beef up are good options but only if you have the spare resource.
Well that's another key point, that most forward alien bases will have at least as much chamber support as the home base, and often as many upgrade structures. Aliens are used to spreading their res around between their bases, but Marines generally like to pick one room and squat in it, which means any attempt to trade it for an alien base leaves them without many basic structures.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1986212:date=Oct 2 2012, 10:31 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Oct 2 2012, 10:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986212"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can't send every unit you own far enough away that they can't protect you, then complain about how much it costs to stop the enemy from steamrolling your base. This applies whether or not the enemy is actually planning to murder your base; if you beaconed, it seemed to you like you were about to get swarmed. In any other RTS, you wouldn't have a magic teleport button to save yourself from your own overextension.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I view it as a reasonable compromise for not being able to control your troops (since they are players too). Aliens have no 'magic teleport button' to save hives and I think it works out quite poorly. It forces aliens to be very offensive so marines don't have a chance to actually assault a hive.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1986270:date=Oct 2 2012, 01:03 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Oct 2 2012, 01:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986270"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Generally speaking, if a com can't control his troops, his team will have a lot bigger issues than popping beacon too often.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not sure how often you comm in pubs, but rest assured you don't have control of them. The best you can hope for is to give them general directions (e.g. attack cargo) or adjust your strategy to the players (e.g. they decide they want to attack pipeline instead). Typically, I find it useful to designate someone you know to be good/competent to carry out your specific orders and use things such as structure placement/tech path to cajole the rest of your players to help.
I also dont understand why there is talk about mid game or late game or about basetrading or about fake beacon or anything that I feel you are talking about now. It isnt about that one side looses upgrades and the other one does not. It is about baserushing the first few minutes where barely no tech is out. (and about onos beeing skilless). And about archaea playing offensively? Well, I can be the first one to say that there is vulnerabilities in the way I play, but this baserushing epidemic is getting ridiculous.
1. I want baserushes to be viable, but it should be punnished if failed. High risk / high reward kinda thing. 2. We can all see its not very risky atm. Its barely any risk at all. Actually, its even the best strat. 3. This is due to alot of things Fana wisely pointed out. 4. We dont want a mod to fix this issues, we want the game to be good in itself. 5. We dont want band-aid fixes.
Imagine we get like IGN or MLG to put up a big league for us. Or that we start to get sponsored tournaments or that we have a big official king of the beta tournament or whatever it might be called. Just imagine we starting to get attention. Becouse from all fantastic work Hugh has done, I think we might get there soon. Now think of this:
What do we actually have to show up for the world? A game where the <i>by far</i> best strategy is insta-dropping 2nd hive and then baserush over and over? Is this really how we want every game to look?
<!--quoteo(post=1986313:date=Oct 2 2012, 04:52 PM:name=Scrajm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scrajm @ Oct 2 2012, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986313"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also dont understand why there is talk about mid game or late game or about basetrading or about fake beacon or anything that I feel you are talking about now. It isnt about that one side looses upgrades and the other one does not. It is about baserushing the first few minutes where barely no tech is out. (and about onos beeing skilless). And about archaea playing offensively? Well, I can be the first one to say that there is vulnerabilities in the way I play, but this baserushing epidemic is getting ridiculous.
1. I want baserushes to be viable, but it should be punnished if failed. High risk / high reward kinda thing. 2. We can all see its not very risky atm. Its barely any risk at all. Actually, its even the best strat. 3. This is due to alot of things Fana wisely pointed out. 4. We dont want a mod to fix this issues, we want the game to be good in itself. 5. We dont want band-aid fixes.
Imagine we get like IGN or MLG to put up a big league for us. Or that we start to get sponsored tournaments or that we have a big official king of the beta tournament or whatever it might be called. Just imagine we starting to get attention. Becouse from all fantastic work Hugh has done, I think we might get there soon. Now think of this:
What do we actually have to show up for the world? A game where the <i>by far</i> best strategy is insta-dropping 2nd hive and then baserush over and over? Is this really how we want every game to look?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Sorry, I got a little off-track.
I don't know how prevalent base-rushes were in the BBC, since not all of the matches we're streamed/recorded, but I saw two instances of it for the Sunday stream on <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/blindns2/b/334011407" target="_blank">Blind's channel</a> at 4:30 and 2:40:00. I suspect we're mostly talking about Arc's 1min skulk rush victory against Duplex (at 2:40:00). I certainly think the CS could either use a little more health or some sort of DPS max so that you can't kill it that quickly (it took 8s by my count). However, it was a well-executed rush that benefited from a bit of luck. Specifically, - Arc took an unexpected route (the vent from elevator overlook rather than through north tunnels) - They waited till wiry and Eissfeldt passed into North Tunnels without giving away that it was all of the team rushing - They all went straight for the comm station - The comm had just jumped back into the CS right as the aliens entered warehouse (where it usually takes a second or two to reorient yourself) - The marine comm was distracted since he was dropping the Ore RT
Also, I think that rush was sufficiently risky. Had it not worked, wiry and Eissfeldt were pushing into the server hive and Johs and Tquila into the elevator one. Duplex just got caught with their pants down, which just happens sometimes.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1986369:date=Oct 3 2012, 01:35 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Oct 3 2012, 01:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986369"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know how prevalent base-rushes were in the BBC<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Three out of four matches on Sunday had one base rush lead to a direct win. You can probably add twice that number of unsuccessful baserushes over just those four matches. That should tell you how prevalent they were.
<!--quoteo(post=1986369:date=Oct 3 2012, 01:35 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Oct 3 2012, 01:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986369"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However, it was a well-executed rush that benefited from a bit of luck.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It wasn't particularly well executed (all we had to do was wait until they ran past us, which is something even a five year old could do if given some instructions) nor was it lucky (we knew exactly what was going to happen; either we kill the CS and instawin or the comm beacons in time -- in which case we rinse and repeat).
<!--quoteo(post=1986369:date=Oct 3 2012, 01:35 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Oct 3 2012, 01:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986369"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, I think that rush was sufficiently risky. Had it not worked, wiry and Eissfeldt were pushing into the server hive and Johs and Tquila into the elevator one. Duplex just got caught with their pants down, which just happens sometimes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The hypothetical events you describe are all but impossible, unless the skulks decided to just stop dead in their tracks and wait for the comm to shoot them, reload, then shoot them some more... The only way to stop five skulk base rushes that early in the game, is to beacon. The funny thing about beacon, is that it brings all your marines back to base...
not to mention even beaconing doesn't stop a rush sometimes. 5 skulks can run right through 1-2 marines and then to the marine base. In that case "Beacon" in skulk language would mean "instant lunch" as the already outnumbered marines are teleported on top of 5 hungry skulks. Even if it fails, the alien team loses nothing, but the marine team has the potential to lose weapons and map control if phase gates have not been set up yet. Remove sprint to give more map control? Have marines start with 2 ips so that their spawn rate isn't the same as the basically "free" skulks? There are many solutions.
What if the power node in tech point locations had triple or some big amount of the health of other powernodes, something like a "tech-power node" - and what if the infantry portals were tied to the command chair's health so they can't be destroyed without the com chair, which was also considerably buffed in health?
That would give the marines a lot more time to respawn and react, and make fights for a marine tech point last a lot longer, even with 5 skulks attacking - comparable to the length of a fight which can be expected from attacking a hive with 5 marines.
Or what if alien eggs' spawn rate increases exponentially or linearly or something, e.g. aliens start with the team number of eggs so they can do ONE early base rush, which if it fails only 50% of the team respawns instantly, but then the hive(s) remake eggs very slowly resulting in very slow respawn timers, but the rate grows over time as the game progresses escalating to what it was without the 25% nerf by about minute 7:00-8:00 and then stays flat? A "progressive" respawn rate would mean limiting crippling alien attacks on the marine base early game, while still giving aliens instant (12-sec) respawns late-game. Shifts should be unaffected because those eggs and the shift itself have to be paid for, and the shift is a very fragile structure which requires expensive cysting anyway (easily "snipe-able" by marines if too close to their base).
Or how about this: What if the commander can adjust a "recall percentage" of the beacon which is tied to the beacon cost? E.G. what if the commander, at the start of a match, or by clicking on the beacon, had three or four different options instead of just one "distress beacon" button? Like, "recall one marine for 2 res, recall 3 marines for 5 res, recall 5 marines for 7 res, recall the entire team for 10 res" and marines were recalled either randomly or through some kind of prioritization system (maybe marines or the commander should be able to select which marines should be beaconed at a higher or lower priority at the start of the match).
P.S. This thread is about comp. play, but I feel reducing the egg respawn rate even further and making it "flat" throughout the entire game would be quite punishing to alien teams on pub play though :-( . Sometimes, the egg respawn isn't fast enough AS IS when there's a lot of dying even currently, nevermind it being made even slower. It could work though, I can't tell without trying :-) .
P.P.S. As I'm thinking more about this, this seems to be primarily an early game problem (first 5 minutes or so). If I'm right about this, whatever solution is implemented it needs to affect the early game ONLY. It would not be very good to implement a solution which "fixes" the early game marine base rushes, but then put aliens at a severe disadvantage late-game.
BTW to add to my post, the arguments of seeing the aliens too late can be solved by maybe doubling or even tripling the observatory range when it's in the range of a CC so you can see the adjacent rooms as well but still not making it a wallhack in other areas of the map?
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Doubling the range of the CC'd Obs might be a good idea, particularly against the early base rush, but does it become too powerful late game? I have no idea if it does, I'm just asking the question.
Overall it is understood that base-rushing is the only way for aliens to win the game, but the effectiveness/cost needs to be reworked to fine tune the balance. I don't think the spawn timers/wave need adjusting, I feel there are probably one or two simple things that could eliminate this problem.
Marines spawning with 2 IP's would be OP in my opinion, as you can see from late games when they die on a hive, how quickly they are back through the PG when they have 2IP's.
An earlier warning system through extended Obs range, and maybe the option to cancel the beacon, at a cost of 20-30% of the beacon cost, so a cancelled beacon costs 2-3res, rather than the full 10. This would work to reduce the 'Fake rushes' pulled off just to force a beacon with no intention to attack the base.
I think those kinds of small changes are what is needed to bring balance, I don't think we need to mess with spawn times too much, after the tragedies that were previous spawn time/wave fixes, I think we have a kind of sweet spot at the moment, which I don't want to see ruined completely by an over zealous change.
Better Detection: Have we really worked out the optimal scouting/attacking/expanding pattern to keep map control while being able to detect rushes? What ways can the game change to increase detection ability?
Better defenses: Have we worked ideal building locations to lower ability to base rush key structures? Is there a good defensive position which allows marines to delay/take down multiple skulks? What other defensive mechanisms can the game have?
Increasing Risk of Bashrush Failing:
Increasing loss of income after a fail attempt: Currently as has been explained, Aliens best upgrade path is fast hive and live off 1 res tower. This makes it very hard to reduce their economy unless you can break their turtled one and only res tower (which is also where they spawn from). May need to adjust the economy first before you can increase change of making them lose income.
Increasing recovery time after a failed attempt: This is mostly to do with the egg respawning mechanism and how the game can change it
Reducing map control after a failed attempt: Aliens currently don't have much map control already, which makes it hard to lose it. Again for this to be viable, aliens need to be default have better map control.
Increased map control for marines after a failed attempt: The exact opposite is usually the case. For marines to defend (usually a beacon) they've just lost all map control. What can we do about this?
Increased marine income after a failed attempt: Again, hard to figure out a way. From a game changing point of view, RFK would be a good start.
Comments
Was thinking the same thing about having less eggs in the start so there would be some kind of delay when getting the whole team killed.
Someone go bug Charlie about this. =P
Someone go bug Charlie about this. =P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's definitely going to help in punishing the base rushes, but it's also going to highlight the problems that lead to aliens rushing the base in the first place. Skulks need to be more viable without leap.
Both Skulks and Marines should be able to all-in, and both forms of rushes should have their penalties. Skulks lose map security and take a while to spawn back in. Marines risk losing the game to a counter-rush and delaying their res. Seems balanced to me.
I agree wholeheartedly.
Do you think a Beacon cancel would improve things? The beacon could cancel in ns1. Here it does not..
Though beacon cancelling could lead to coms trying to fake out enemy teams with the alert, which could be fun...
Though beacon cancelling could lead to coms trying to fake out enemy teams with the alert, which could be fun...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And not have to stunt yourself 10 res each time an enemy decides to fake out your Beacon if you start it as soon as you see 5 dots inbound.
I think an issue right now is that base trading is almost <b>ALWAYS </b>in the Aliens favor. You may bang their 2nd hive but if they get your base, you lose all upgrades and any way to spawn in. They keep their upgrades and can still spawn from the 1st hive without issue. Or even back at the 2nd hive location with Shift play.
A quick relocation can solve this issue, but that's only on certain maps. On Veil that typically isn't an option.
You can't send every unit you own far enough away that they can't protect you, then complain about how much it costs to stop the enemy from steamrolling your base. This applies whether or not the enemy is actually planning to murder your base; if you beaconed, it seemed to you like you were about to get swarmed. In any other RTS, you wouldn't have a magic teleport button to save yourself from your own overextension.
You can't send every unit you own far enough away that they can't protect you, then complain about how much it costs to stop the enemy from steamrolling your base. This applies whether or not the enemy is actually planning to murder your base; if you beaconed, it seemed to you like you were about to get swarmed. In any other RTS, you wouldn't have a magic teleport button to save yourself from your own overextension.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sadly, some RTS games like Dawn of War II, do have that button. That's besides the point though. But anyways, I agree that overextension should be a risk but I still think there's a ton to be gained from the Aliens base trading and not much lost.
Mechanically speaking, base-trading favors marines if all other things are random. I think the issue here is that aliens are letting Marines take out a base that they don't mind losing as much, while also destroying the base the marines care the most about. That's not a base-trading imbalance, it's marines getting outplayed.
Mechanically speaking, base-trading favors marines if all other things are random. I think the issue here is that aliens are letting Marines take out a base that they don't mind losing as much, while also destroying the base the marines care the most about. That's not a base-trading imbalance, it's marines getting outplayed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're talking about upgrade chambers that require being researched again, abilities actually stay on the Aliens until they die or until you get the 2nd hive back up at no further cost. Upgrades also stay on the Aliens until they die. With power lost, Marines lose all abilities and upgrades instantly and would have to return to base (instantly die to upgraded aliens since w0/a0) to get the power back on.
I still don't think it's Marines getting outplayed entirely. If Marines snipe upgrades, the Aliens still have to DIE, come back again to be disadvantaged. Kill the Marine power while they are hitting your Hive, they go down to w0/a0 and are easy picks for Fades that may return or already be present in Hive defense.
Anyways, I think the solution is probably for Marines to buff up the 2nd expansion base with a 2nd arms lab and other structures. I have Commanded games against the base rush tactic in competitive games now and I think the relocate/2nd base beef up are good options but only if you have the spare resource.
I view it as a reasonable compromise for not being able to control your troops (since they are players too). Aliens have no 'magic teleport button' to save hives and I think it works out quite poorly. It forces aliens to be very offensive so marines don't have a chance to actually assault a hive.
Not sure how often you comm in pubs, but rest assured you don't have control of them. The best you can hope for is to give them general directions (e.g. attack cargo) or adjust your strategy to the players (e.g. they decide they want to attack pipeline instead). Typically, I find it useful to designate someone you know to be good/competent to carry out your specific orders and use things such as structure placement/tech path to cajole the rest of your players to help.
Guess this thread is past its expiry date already...
1. I want baserushes to be viable, but it should be punnished if failed. High risk / high reward kinda thing.
2. We can all see its not very risky atm. Its barely any risk at all. Actually, its even the best strat.
3. This is due to alot of things Fana wisely pointed out.
4. We dont want a mod to fix this issues, we want the game to be good in itself.
5. We dont want band-aid fixes.
Imagine we get like IGN or MLG to put up a big league for us. Or that we start to get sponsored tournaments or that we have a big official king of the beta tournament or whatever it might be called. Just imagine we starting to get attention. Becouse from all fantastic work Hugh has done, I think we might get there soon. Now think of this:
What do we actually have to show up for the world? A game where the <i>by far</i> best strategy is insta-dropping 2nd hive and then baserush over and over? Is this really how we want every game to look?
1. I want baserushes to be viable, but it should be punnished if failed. High risk / high reward kinda thing.
2. We can all see its not very risky atm. Its barely any risk at all. Actually, its even the best strat.
3. This is due to alot of things Fana wisely pointed out.
4. We dont want a mod to fix this issues, we want the game to be good in itself.
5. We dont want band-aid fixes.
Imagine we get like IGN or MLG to put up a big league for us. Or that we start to get sponsored tournaments or that we have a big official king of the beta tournament or whatever it might be called. Just imagine we starting to get attention. Becouse from all fantastic work Hugh has done, I think we might get there soon. Now think of this:
What do we actually have to show up for the world? A game where the <i>by far</i> best strategy is insta-dropping 2nd hive and then baserush over and over? Is this really how we want every game to look?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
I don't know how prevalent base-rushes were in the BBC, since not all of the matches we're streamed/recorded, but I saw two instances of it for the Sunday stream on <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/blindns2/b/334011407" target="_blank">Blind's channel</a> at 4:30 and 2:40:00. I suspect we're mostly talking about Arc's 1min skulk rush victory against Duplex (at 2:40:00). I certainly think the CS could either use a little more health or some sort of DPS max so that you can't kill it that quickly (it took 8s by my count). However, it was a well-executed rush that benefited from a bit of luck. Specifically,
- Arc took an unexpected route (the vent from elevator overlook rather than through north tunnels)
- They waited till wiry and Eissfeldt passed into North Tunnels without giving away that it was all of the team rushing
- They all went straight for the comm station
- The comm had just jumped back into the CS right as the aliens entered warehouse (where it usually takes a second or two to reorient yourself)
- The marine comm was distracted since he was dropping the Ore RT
Also, I think that rush was sufficiently risky. Had it not worked, wiry and Eissfeldt were pushing into the server hive and Johs and Tquila into the elevator one. Duplex just got caught with their pants down, which just happens sometimes.
Three out of four matches on Sunday had one base rush lead to a direct win. You can probably add twice that number of unsuccessful baserushes over just those four matches. That should tell you how prevalent they were.
<!--quoteo(post=1986369:date=Oct 3 2012, 01:35 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Oct 3 2012, 01:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986369"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However, it was a well-executed rush that benefited from a bit of luck.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It wasn't particularly well executed (all we had to do was wait until they ran past us, which is something even a five year old could do if given some instructions) nor was it lucky (we knew exactly what was going to happen; either we kill the CS and instawin or the comm beacons in time -- in which case we rinse and repeat).
<!--quoteo(post=1986369:date=Oct 3 2012, 01:35 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Oct 3 2012, 01:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986369"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, I think that rush was sufficiently risky. Had it not worked, wiry and Eissfeldt were pushing into the server hive and Johs and Tquila into the elevator one. Duplex just got caught with their pants down, which just happens sometimes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The hypothetical events you describe are all but impossible, unless the skulks decided to just stop dead in their tracks and wait for the comm to shoot them, reload, then shoot them some more... The only way to stop five skulk base rushes that early in the game, is to beacon. The funny thing about beacon, is that it brings all your marines back to base...
That would give the marines a lot more time to respawn and react, and make fights for a marine tech point last a lot longer, even with 5 skulks attacking - comparable to the length of a fight which can be expected from attacking a hive with 5 marines.
Or what if alien eggs' spawn rate increases exponentially or linearly or something, e.g. aliens start with the team number of eggs so they can do ONE early base rush, which if it fails only 50% of the team respawns instantly, but then the hive(s) remake eggs very slowly resulting in very slow respawn timers, but the rate grows over time as the game progresses escalating to what it was without the 25% nerf by about minute 7:00-8:00 and then stays flat? A "progressive" respawn rate would mean limiting crippling alien attacks on the marine base early game, while still giving aliens instant (12-sec) respawns late-game. Shifts should be unaffected because those eggs and the shift itself have to be paid for, and the shift is a very fragile structure which requires expensive cysting anyway (easily "snipe-able" by marines if too close to their base).
Or how about this: What if the commander can adjust a "recall percentage" of the beacon which is tied to the beacon cost? E.G. what if the commander, at the start of a match, or by clicking on the beacon, had three or four different options instead of just one "distress beacon" button? Like, "recall one marine for 2 res, recall 3 marines for 5 res, recall 5 marines for 7 res, recall the entire team for 10 res" and marines were recalled either randomly or through some kind of prioritization system (maybe marines or the commander should be able to select which marines should be beaconed at a higher or lower priority at the start of the match).
P.S. This thread is about comp. play, but I feel reducing the egg respawn rate even further and making it "flat" throughout the entire game would be quite punishing to alien teams on pub play though :-( . Sometimes, the egg respawn isn't fast enough AS IS when there's a lot of dying even currently, nevermind it being made even slower. It could work though, I can't tell without trying :-) .
P.P.S. As I'm thinking more about this, this seems to be primarily an early game problem (first 5 minutes or so). If I'm right about this, whatever solution is implemented it needs to affect the early game ONLY. It would not be very good to implement a solution which "fixes" the early game marine base rushes, but then put aliens at a severe disadvantage late-game.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116546" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=116546</a>
Granted, the situation has changed since then and even more factors than merely cc hp are to blame now.
Overall it is understood that base-rushing is the only way for aliens to win the game, but the effectiveness/cost needs to be reworked to fine tune the balance. I don't think the spawn timers/wave need adjusting, I feel there are probably one or two simple things that could eliminate this problem.
Marines spawning with 2 IP's would be OP in my opinion, as you can see from late games when they die on a hive, how quickly they are back through the PG when they have 2IP's.
An earlier warning system through extended Obs range, and maybe the option to cancel the beacon, at a cost of 20-30% of the beacon cost, so a cancelled beacon costs 2-3res, rather than the full 10. This would work to reduce the 'Fake rushes' pulled off just to force a beacon with no intention to attack the base.
I think those kinds of small changes are what is needed to bring balance, I don't think we need to mess with spawn times too much, after the tragedies that were previous spawn time/wave fixes, I think we have a kind of sweet spot at the moment, which I don't want to see ruined completely by an over zealous change.
Better Detection:
Have we really worked out the optimal scouting/attacking/expanding pattern to keep map control while being able to detect rushes?
What ways can the game change to increase detection ability?
Better defenses:
Have we worked ideal building locations to lower ability to base rush key structures?
Is there a good defensive position which allows marines to delay/take down multiple skulks?
What other defensive mechanisms can the game have?
Increasing Risk of Bashrush Failing:
Increasing loss of income after a fail attempt:
Currently as has been explained, Aliens best upgrade path is fast hive and live off 1 res tower. This makes it very hard to reduce their economy unless you can break their turtled one and only res tower (which is also where they spawn from). May need to adjust the economy first before you can increase change of making them lose income.
Increasing recovery time after a failed attempt:
This is mostly to do with the egg respawning mechanism and how the game can change it
Reducing map control after a failed attempt:
Aliens currently don't have much map control already, which makes it hard to lose it. Again for this to be viable, aliens need to be default have better map control.
Increased map control for marines after a failed attempt:
The exact opposite is usually the case. For marines to defend (usually a beacon) they've just lost all map control. What can we do about this?
Increased marine income after a failed attempt:
Again, hard to figure out a way. From a game changing point of view, RFK would be a good start.