what would happen if we moved shotguns to the advanced armory, and moved flamethrowers down to standard armory?
In this case the best anti-skulk weapon is made more of a mid to late game tech. It gives skulks more early game power, but makes it so shotguns still tend to come out before fades do. This would also make the lerk much more practical. It adds in a good build order choice too, should we go shotguns or phase gates? The two are now much harder to get at the same time during the early game.
Flamethrowers being in the mix earlier, might also make them a more practical weapon, especially if the price was dropped to 15-20 res. If teams can move out early with the flame thrower, which is a reasonably good anti-structure weapon but is not super powerful against skulks, it is still possible to push down RTs, but it isn't like the current shotgun dominance.
this would make it viable for aliens to put off 2nd hive + leap in order to get more early rts because they would spend more time fight rifle marines instead of worrying about shotguns.
<!--quoteo(post=1986141:date=Oct 2 2012, 10:54 AM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Oct 2 2012, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986141"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Funnily enough we were talking with Charlie about this issue after the finals of blind's cup. He was listening in on our ts3. Our suggestion was to increase hivecost to 50 and increase the build time a bit. Maybe leap should be bumped up from 25 to 30 as well, just to make the fast leap strategy less viable. That would at least make expanding for harvesters just as viable, if not better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why not tie leap to having an upgrade? Meaning the aliens have to upgrade their base hive to a crag/shift/shade hive before they can research leap.
Some of the suggestions in this thread are just absolutely terrible...
There are two very simple things that UWE can change
1. Give skulks skill based movement ie. fix walljump 2. Make lerks either earlier accessible (25 pres) / stronger (projectile gas)
It will not solve the problem 100% but it gets us 80% of the way...
ps: to the people writing massive walls of text about changing so many different parts of the game.. get real. We are 2-3 weeks from launch, none of that will ever happen.
<!--quoteo(post=1986358:date=Oct 2 2012, 06:07 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Oct 2 2012, 06:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986358"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think the correct way to fix the "always fast 2nd hive 'problem'" is either of the following:
1) making early game harder via cost increases to strategies you're trying to disincentivize 2) moving leap to first hive
Leaps is far too powerful to be on first hive. That crap was terrible just a few patches ago. Leap would be finishing in the first minute. I've seen the suggestion that leap be given either an exorbitant tres cost (this is dumb and basically a cop out) or an extremely long research timer (another cop out because this would be the only ability with such a long research timer).
I think the correct avenue to fix this is to fix skulks vs marines. Good skulks get crushed too hard by good marines. Aliens go quick hive almost exlusively on veil because it's impossible for aliens to hold any RTs outside of their hive RTs. Why does this happen? Because marines are that much better than skulks.
Some steps to fix this early game imbalance and open up more strats for aliens (example: 2-3 RT before hive, similar to how marines build 3-5 RTs before starting upgrades): 1) a cheaper lerk. Lerk is improving, though I still fear it may be too weak in its current state. Instead of buffing it, I'd rather see the pres cost dropped to 25 in order to get the lerk out in half the time. 2) skulk movement needs love. The new wall jump still yields no speed and is mediocre for in combat maneuvering compared to what we had even in b219. In b219, people still went fast hive but celerity first was more of an option. Yeah, that's how bad current skulk play is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With the long(er) corridors of Veil, I doubt speed increases would cause any real advantage in skulk vs. marine gameplay, unless they are really substantial. If skulk movement gets buffed, on the other hand, aliens would be OP on the other, more close-quarters maps.
Personally, I don't think Lerks are an appropriate answer to marines either. If you make the Lerk effectively a flying "alien marine with an assault rifle," it'll still die just as much as marines do. And then the marine respawns for free while the lerk costs 25 :-) .
I also think increasing the TIME to research leap is a really bad solution, because evolving it would "lock" the hive in upgrade mode, and deny hive abilities such as making a crag/shift/shade hive, as well as creating drifters or evolving other alien abilities.
I really think moving leap/blink/spores/bile to first hive and stomp/umbra/vortex/bile to 2nd and then fiddling with the costs to adjust the timing of when those upgrades appear might be the answer to this problem, without locking the hives down in upgrade mode for too long. If leap needs to cost 50 or more so that the "timing is right," then so be it. Same with blink/bile/spores. I certainly do NOT advise moving leap to the first hive and keeping it at 25; that would make aliens effectively start with leap. If leap is chosen to be upgraded early, it needs to be at a COST - such as slowing down alien expansion almost to a halt.
It's a basic RTS principle (from supcom2 anyway). If you go tech (research stations) you expand slowly because of your early investment in the tech "edge" over your opponent, and you're often beaten by a rush or a rapid expansion strat followed by a rush. Expand too much or focus on rush and neglect tech, and you're often beaten by tech if the techer holds off your rush.
I have been seeing a counter-strategy to a fast hive drop. Marines will scout the maps as quick as they can to find where the aliens start and as soon as they find it, will focus on the aliens starting RT. If the marines are quick enough, the aliens get res locked with 2 hives. So all in all, the alien team needs to know about a quick hive drop and really step up their defense of their only RT.
When I Kamm, I make sure I have a close RT before dropping a 2nd hive. played a game about two hours ago where this was the case and I was able to rebuild our starting hive node from that one RT in comp lab and eventually won the game.
- marines don't need a second CC nearly as badly, and 3rd CC at all, so make marines need a second CC as much as aliens need a second hive, and then also need a 3rd CC like aliens do, or - marines don't need a second CC nearly as badly, and 3rd CC at all, so make aliens not need a second hive as badly, and a 3rd hive at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1986434:date=Oct 2 2012, 09:09 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 2 2012, 09:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986434"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Different ways to look at the "problem:"
- marines don't need a second CC nearly as badly, and 3rd CC at all, so make marines need a second CC as much as aliens need a second hive, and then also need a 3rd CC like aliens do, or - marines don't need a second CC nearly as badly, and 3rd CC at all, so make aliens not need a second hive as badly, and a 3rd hive at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't what the thread is about. the problem the thread is about is that the only build order aliens can use in competitive play is instant hive drop into leap. The reason this is the case is that skulks are not effective in high skill games until they have leap. That is boring. Needs more strategic variety.
As for the shotgun issue, I think the only thing required is a counter. At the moment the shotgun is weak against nothing. Non of the lifeforms have anything which makes the shotgun a detriment to whoever is using it.
My suggestion: Increase damage drop-off to make it near useless against anything more than about 15 feet away to emphasize the risk against skulks. Add a slowdown of around 20% to marines wielding shotguns. Make the Lerk the counter to shotgun marines. In theory it should be one Lerk = two shotguns, at the moment its one shotgun = two dead Lerks.
The shotgun is a detriment against the lerk, because it can (presumably) accurately spike a shotgun user from far away and not take much damage due to its small hitbox, making the shotgunner feel a need to close the distance.
<!--quoteo(post=1986452:date=Oct 3 2012, 06:57 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 3 2012, 06:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986452"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The shotgun is a detriment against the lerk, because it can (presumably) accurately spike a shotgun user from far away and not take much damage due to its small hitbox, making the shotgunner feel a need to close the distance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, if this were true, it would be a detriment. However, this is not true.
Skulk combat is currently unnecessarily hard without upgrades. Possible things to improve: skill based movement (-> skill scalability), collisions (-> less marines surfing on skulks, more skulk success), slight increase in base speed (-> a not so sluggish skulk). Also, would like to see a very slightly toned down bite cone (-> no more lawnmower mouths).
That being said, I think Celerity and Carapace are - in the early game - almost up on the level of leap. There are however other things to consider:
- RTs are really hard to hold. Hive provides protection for hive RT and the RT between 2 hives. This makes early hive drops much less risky than going for 2 extra harvesters (that need protection and can force the aliens to play even more defensibly). - Cost for cele or cara = 45. Cost for hive and leap 65. This difference is paid back pretty easily by the RT protection of the hive, and since you need a hive anyway, the price is a steal when compared to the chambers. - Chambers can be sniped, which especially in early game is a huge dent in alien economy. 30 res to replace. - Leap is available on spawn, while chamber upgrades are often unavailable in hive defences due to marines spawncamping. - 2nd hive unlocks later abilities. - 2nd hive unlocks 2nd set of chambers. - 2nd hive unlocks khammander-bought eggs for higher lifeforms.
So, all in all, even if the combat effects of various tech paths are somewhat on an equal footing, the quick hive strategy seems to provide several non-trivial advantages over any chamber upgrade path. These advantages are not, for the most part, directly related to skulk combat... So, I don't think this is a simple problem to be directly addressed by just skulk tweaks or price increases.
How is it not true? You certainly take a lot less damage over time from a shotgun over a long distance as a lerk, standing still, as opposed to being shot at with a pistol or an AR...
In reality, nobody stands still as a lerk unless they're hidden and not being shot at though, so the point is moot anyway, but I'm just saying - the shotgun "spread" makes it less effective over longer distances - and I'm talking really long distances like from one corner of cargo to the opposite corner of cargo.
Imbalanxed is right. The SG is a Lerk-Counter right now. It should be the other way around. Right now, the SG has more Damage per second than lerk spikes. Thats why you can't kill a SG marine in one attack. Creating a counter for the shotgun is the right way to go.
The same stands for fast second hive. There needs to be a more accessible counter than good scouting + res locking.
While I agree with gorgeous that skulks without leap are underpowered against SG marines, I don't think buffing the skulks without leap will result in a lower desire for leap. Leap will than just overpower the skulk, making the 2nd hive strategy equally desirable. Increasing the time for shotguns to appear on the battlefield may be a solution for one part. But without increasing the risk for the 2nd hive strategy (= creating a better counter) it will remain this popular. Because leap is a powerful default-alien-upgrade. The solution: Disconnecting it from hive 2 but increasing costs / time to create a "soonest point to appear in a round" while also having a "soonest point to appear and be economical" that lies equal to the shotgun appearance. Leap isn't even a choice to any other hive2-tech right now. It doesn't belong there if it destroys the available options, by being the most powerful of the options-group.
If a strategy is too good, don't nerf the strategy. Create a counter to increase the risk. Researching early shot gun is too little of a risk. Going 2nd hive is too little of a risk.
<!--quoteo(post=1986478:date=Oct 3 2012, 10:31 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 3 2012, 10:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986478"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How is it not true? You certainly take a lot less damage over time from a shotgun over a long distance as a lerk, standing still, as opposed to being shot at with a pistol or an AR...
In reality, nobody stands still as a lerk unless they're hidden and not being shot at though, so the point is moot anyway, but I'm just saying - the shotgun "spread" makes it less effective over longer distances - and I'm talking really long distances like from one corner of cargo to the opposite corner of cargo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The one time I happen to fight a shotgun marine as a lerk while he is crossing crevice, yes, it is true. In the other 99.9% of encounters, it is not true.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1986151:date=Oct 2 2012, 05:10 PM:name=Splicer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Splicer @ Oct 2 2012, 05:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986151"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How would you balance for the fact that Aliens are now being penalised an extra 10 tres on their later "legitimate" hives? And an extra 5 tres on their later "legitimate" leap research?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It would not call a 40 TRes hivedrop legit. But that just shows how well people on these forums understand the balance of the game.
Also I would like to point that we talked with flayra about other things as well. Such as alien earlygame. Skulks are too fat and clunky, and lerk comes too late for the party. Starting PRes 25 again, or decrease cost of lerk to 25.
If both problems was fixed it would mean that aliens have a much better earlygame. And that going fast 2nd hive and leap is still a viable strategy, without being the only viable strategy against decent marines. The suggested cost increase for leap was if increasing hivecost to 50 didn't cut it. That will need testing to say for sure.
<!--quoteo(post=1986491:date=Oct 3 2012, 04:03 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Oct 3 2012, 04:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986491"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Imbalanxed is right. The SG is a Lerk-Counter right now. It should be the other way around. Right now, the SG has more Damage per second than lerk spikes. Thats why you can't kill a SG marine in one attack. Creating a counter for the shotgun is the right way to go.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wrong, but ey, i hope its added , will be funny to see super strong spikes
shotgun counter is not getting hit, which doesnt help as aliens are so weak now.
as ive been saying for awhile now, lerks need ranged spores. and its getting painfully obvious
<!--quoteo(post=1986491:date=Oct 3 2012, 02:03 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Oct 3 2012, 02:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986491"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The SG is a Lerk-Counter right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The SG is a counter to any alienlifeform :>.
Thats one aspect of the game I dislike. There are way to less rts typical "counters" in this game. Thats one big reason why there are no much different tactics. Way to much "must have upgrades". Another reason is simply that there is no much stuff to upgrade/improve/build/ToDo .Fells like Starcraft with 1 1/2 race, no airunits, 1/2 restunits, only dmgupgrades, 1/2 mapsize. There are no much options now hmm?
The fact we are discussing this case shows that we arnt very happy with that game. Some people have to realize and accept that NS2 is muuuuuch more Shooter than RTS.
This game should need much more variables ----> more different tactics/Strategys. But well...its to late now . 2-3 weeks till release :/ .
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited October 2012
I still think the amount of pellets are too few and the spread is too small for the shotgun to make it useful for it's role. Currently i get shotgunned all the time at a room's length (across the length of subsector or stability monitoring etc) as a lerk, and can do the same when i have a shotgun in hand.
That's crazy, imo.. there should be a large spread with lots of pellets to encourage the role of the weapon and make it less of a hard counter / jack of all trades.
More on topic: I think increasing the build time for hives is an appropriate thing to try
So what are people saying, maybe shotguns don't have enough spread? IDK, maybe it'd be interesting to test an increase in the SG cone, so they're hardly useful unless the alien LF is very close...
Are shotguns the reason why leap is being prioritized though, back to topic? :-)
1. in high level play skulks are really bad. This is especially true after the marines get a few upgrades. (w1+a1) 2. Shotguns make skulks even worse. 3. Skulks can't move around the map fast enough to apply pressure and defend rts at the same time. (thanks to pg marines can do this, plus alien rts take a much longer time to build and more res to place because of cysts)
Leap gives a sort of band-aid to all these problems.
The tricky thing is, skulks are better than marines at low skill levels, so buff to skulks would reek havoc on the game in pub play.
Upping shotgun spread is one of the worst ideas thus far on this thread. Shotguns cost 20 pres each, they're not cheap. Shotguns are overcome with teamwork in competitive games, not by individual lifeforms.
Since people for some reason think shotguns can shoot well across rooms, I just tested out some things in sub-sector. On the inner circle with a lerk sitting on the inner wall and me directly across from it: 4-6 shots to kill. The shotgun loses about 2/3 of its damage against a lerk when shooting just across the inner side of sub-sector.
Now let's talk about outter wall across the techpoint area to the other outter wall. The shotgun can't even shot this far. The damage fully falls off before the outter wall. Around the max range that the shotgun can shoot (outter wall sub -> opposite inner wall sub), it takes 8-10 shotgun hits with the crosshair directly over the lerk to kill it.
I also tried out stability monitor. Shooting from the doorway to courtyard -> pillar just past the RT (the little jut out that covers the powernode). No carapace, weapon 0. It took 5-8 shots over a few different attempts to kill this lerk here.
tl;dr: Shotguns don't kill well at medium to long range. If you're dying to shotguns at these distances then it is because you let them shoot an entire clip at you or you were already low.
<!--quoteo(post=1986781:date=Oct 4 2012, 11:35 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Oct 4 2012, 11:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Upping shotgun spread is one of the worst ideas thus far on this thread. Shotguns cost 20 pres each, they're not cheap. Shotguns are overcome with teamwork in competitive games, not by individual lifeforms.
Since people for some reason think shotguns can shoot well across rooms, I just tested out some things in sub-sector. On the inner circle with a lerk sitting on the inner wall and me directly across from it: 4-6 shots to kill. The shotgun loses about 2/3 of its damage against a lerk when shooting just across the inner side of sub-sector.
Now let's talk about outter wall across the techpoint area to the other outter wall. The shotgun can't even shot this far. The damage fully falls off before the outter wall. Around the max range that the shotgun can shoot (outter wall sub -> opposite inner wall sub), it takes 8-10 shotgun hits with the crosshair directly over the lerk to kill it.
I also tried out stability monitor. Shooting from the doorway to courtyard -> pillar just past the RT (the little jut out that covers the powernode). No carapace, weapon 0. It took 5-8 shots over a few different attempts to kill this lerk here.
tl;dr: Shotguns don't kill well at medium to long range. If you're dying to shotguns at these distances then it is because you let them shoot an entire clip at you or you were already low.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But shotguns also have a pistol which does decent ranged damage so its still not a total ranged trade off.
How long do 4-6 shots take from a SG versus how long it takes spikes to kill an A1-3 marine? Thats really the question...no one said a SG can 1 shot a lerk across a room..just that rate of damage a SG can deliver makes trying to simply snipe from a distance dangerous and not in lerks favour.
<!--quoteo(post=1986799:date=Oct 3 2012, 10:12 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Oct 3 2012, 10:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986799"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But shotguns also have a pistol which does decent ranged damage so its still not a total ranged trade off.
How long do 4-6 shots take from a SG versus how long it takes spikes to kill an A1-3 marine? Thats really the question...no one said a SG can 1 shot a lerk across a room..just that rate of damage a SG can deliver makes trying to simply snipe from a distance dangerous and not in lerks favour.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's very rare that a shotgunner will pull out a pistol to shoot anything. It opens him up to a rush where the time to switch back to his shotgun will likely cause his death.
Also, the kill speed of the SG vs spikes is not the question at all. The lerks fly around at over double the speed of a marine. Where does that factor in? It's easier for a lerk to hit a marine than it is for a marine to hit a lerk. A lerk can disengage from any battle he is not winning, heal, and reengage. A shotgun cannot run; he dies. There's much more than seeing who simply wins a stand-still-shoot-out to consider who is more powerful in a 1v1 or in a given battle scenario.
<!--quoteo(post=1986809:date=Oct 4 2012, 02:37 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Oct 4 2012, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986809"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's very rare that a shotgunner will pull out a pistol to shoot anything. It opens him up to a rush where the time to switch back to his shotgun will likely cause his death.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Except when a lerk is trying to snipe him...most good marines will grab a pistol and start shooting at the lerk...prompting him to move and either attack or clear off. If he attacks then they have a SG ready to go and a lerk already with 1-2 hits on him. I have yet to see a lerk close faster than a marine can switch back to SG (assuming is loaded).
<!--quoteo(post=1986809:date=Oct 4 2012, 02:37 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Oct 4 2012, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986809"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, the kill speed of the SG vs spikes is not the question at all. The lerks fly around at over double the speed of a marine. Where does that factor in? It's easier for a lerk to hit a marine than it is for a marine to hit a lerk. A lerk can disengage from any battle he is not winning, heal, and reengage. A shotgun cannot run; he dies. There's much more than seeing who simply wins a stand-still-shoot-out to consider who is more powerful in a 1v1 or in a given battle scenario.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry but thats exactly what is being questioned here...the ability for a lerk to counter the SG. Whilst most lerks will get in a bite...and then spike this is not the question..but whether the SG has a weakness against the lerk at range(ie SG Marine will likely lose). So ranged attack who can place more damage in shortest period of time (speed hampers aiming as much as being targeted..especially when both parties are moving). How long will it take to get off 6 SG shots and how long to spike a marine at same distance?
The discussion about why 2nd hive is so important came down to counter for SG..the claim being that a lerk was the counter to a SG as could spike at range. Most good lerks I have seen would rarely do this as a form of ranged attack..instead they would risk swooping in and getting a bite whilst team mates also attack....the limitation currently for lerk is the need for team mates (in fact all aliens struggle with this...only exo's have this issue for marines) as 1v1 lerk v SG...lerks lose more than they win.
But I guess they are overlooking this wonderful counter to SG right and should just sit back and try spiking from a distance?
<!--quoteo(post=1986781:date=Oct 3 2012, 05:35 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Oct 3 2012, 05:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Upping shotgun spread is one of the worst ideas thus far on this thread. Shotguns cost 20 pres each, they're not cheap. Shotguns are overcome with teamwork in competitive games, not by individual lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Shotguns are cheaper than any lifeform upgrade besides the gorge, and can be (usually WILL be) picked up by a teammate near the original owner, dropping the cost to 10, 6.6, 5, 4, 3.3 per shotgun as that shotgun gets passed from owner to owner. A straight-up pres comparison shows that shotguns are cheap... albeit maybe not for the guy who actually has to buy it. Or, another way of looking at it, someone has to drop 20 res on a shotgun, but then a bunch of people have the opportunity to score a free shotgun afterwards, if they're at least travelling in groups.
The tight shotgun spread is a good thing; it lets players who can aim actually perform with the shotgun at ranges outside of point blank. I could go for the damage falloff being slightly higher, but that's about it.
<!--quoteo(post=1986781:date=Oct 4 2012, 02:35 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Oct 4 2012, 02:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Upping shotgun spread is one of the worst ideas thus far on this thread. Shotguns cost 20 pres each, they're not cheap. Shotguns are overcome with teamwork in competitive games, not by individual lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good thing nobody gives a ###### about competitive play, as the level of teamwork required is not feasible for random players in a pub game.
<!--quoteo(post=1987032:date=Oct 4 2012, 09:35 PM:name=Shrike3O)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrike3O @ Oct 4 2012, 09:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The tight shotgun spread is a good thing; it lets players who can aim actually perform with the shotgun at ranges outside of point blank. I could go for the damage falloff being slightly higher, but that's about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's like saying sniper rifles in games should be perfectly accurate while not scoped, so that it allows good players to be instant killers at both long and short range. Such mechanics will turn this game into more of a COD remake than it already is.
20 res is cheap when you take into account that your team can keep that shotgun in play until the end of the game. Imagine if aliens could pick up fallen lifeforms "DNA" which allowed them to evolve into that lifeform for free ?
also, weapons stay on the field for far too long, you can die > respawn > phase > sprint to the location you died and pick up your dropped weapon :/
raise marine extractor cost by 5 res, reduce alien upgrade building cost by 5 res and increase building time by 30s, reduce alien harvester build time by 10-20s.
marines have no reason not to go early shotty, since they can cap the whole map while teching and building. likewise, aliens cannot afford early upgrades because their cost/benefit is not nearly as good as that of 2nd hive abilities.
-force marines to be more defensive and play more cautiously, since losing extractors is a bigger deal and it takes longer for extractors to pay off -not allow marines to cap the entire map at the beginning of the match. seriously, when was the last time you saw even extractor counts between equal teams at the beginning of the game? usually marines shoot straight up to 4-6 extractors while the aliens are still on 2. -allow some serious choices on each team. -allow skulk harass to be more effective. -give aliens some breathing room; fast hive 2 is in response to skulks getting dominated by shotties. -scouting becomes important again, increases strategic depth - scouting early to reveal build orders a necessity.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
You're right to some degree, Wheeee, but your suggestion doesn't actually make early hive2 any less desireable for the aliens, it just makes it even easier for aliens to get back from their low-res slump once the second hive is up.
Comments
In this case the best anti-skulk weapon is made more of a mid to late game tech. It gives skulks more early game power, but makes it so shotguns still tend to come out before fades do. This would also make the lerk much more practical. It adds in a good build order choice too, should we go shotguns or phase gates? The two are now much harder to get at the same time during the early game.
Flamethrowers being in the mix earlier, might also make them a more practical weapon, especially if the price was dropped to 15-20 res. If teams can move out early with the flame thrower, which is a reasonably good anti-structure weapon but is not super powerful against skulks, it is still possible to push down RTs, but it isn't like the current shotgun dominance.
this would make it viable for aliens to put off 2nd hive + leap in order to get more early rts because they would spend more time fight rifle marines instead of worrying about shotguns.
just my two cents.
Our suggestion was to increase hivecost to 50 and increase the build time a bit.
Maybe leap should be bumped up from 25 to 30 as well, just to make the fast leap strategy less viable.
That would at least make expanding for harvesters just as viable, if not better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not tie leap to having an upgrade? Meaning the aliens have to upgrade their base hive to a crag/shift/shade hive before they can research leap.
There are two very simple things that UWE can change
1. Give skulks skill based movement ie. fix walljump
2. Make lerks either earlier accessible (25 pres) / stronger (projectile gas)
It will not solve the problem 100% but it gets us 80% of the way...
ps: to the people writing massive walls of text about changing so many different parts of the game.. get real. We are 2-3 weeks from launch, none of that will ever happen.
1) making early game harder via cost increases to strategies you're trying to disincentivize
2) moving leap to first hive
Leaps is far too powerful to be on first hive. That crap was terrible just a few patches ago. Leap would be finishing in the first minute. I've seen the suggestion that leap be given either an exorbitant tres cost (this is dumb and basically a cop out) or an extremely long research timer (another cop out because this would be the only ability with such a long research timer).
I think the correct avenue to fix this is to fix skulks vs marines. Good skulks get crushed too hard by good marines. Aliens go quick hive almost exlusively on veil because it's impossible for aliens to hold any RTs outside of their hive RTs. Why does this happen? Because marines are that much better than skulks.
Some steps to fix this early game imbalance and open up more strats for aliens (example: 2-3 RT before hive, similar to how marines build 3-5 RTs before starting upgrades):
1) a cheaper lerk. Lerk is improving, though I still fear it may be too weak in its current state. Instead of buffing it, I'd rather see the pres cost dropped to 25 in order to get the lerk out in half the time.
2) skulk movement needs love. The new wall jump still yields no speed and is mediocre for in combat maneuvering compared to what we had even in b219. In b219, people still went fast hive but celerity first was more of an option. Yeah, that's how bad current skulk play is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With the long(er) corridors of Veil, I doubt speed increases would cause any real advantage in skulk vs. marine gameplay, unless they are really substantial. If skulk movement gets buffed, on the other hand, aliens would be OP on the other, more close-quarters maps.
Personally, I don't think Lerks are an appropriate answer to marines either. If you make the Lerk effectively a flying "alien marine with an assault rifle," it'll still die just as much as marines do. And then the marine respawns for free while the lerk costs 25 :-) .
I also think increasing the TIME to research leap is a really bad solution, because evolving it would "lock" the hive in upgrade mode, and deny hive abilities such as making a crag/shift/shade hive, as well as creating drifters or evolving other alien abilities.
I really think moving leap/blink/spores/bile to first hive and stomp/umbra/vortex/bile to 2nd and then fiddling with the costs to adjust the timing of when those upgrades appear might be the answer to this problem, without locking the hives down in upgrade mode for too long. If leap needs to cost 50 or more so that the "timing is right," then so be it. Same with blink/bile/spores. I certainly do NOT advise moving leap to the first hive and keeping it at 25; that would make aliens effectively start with leap. If leap is chosen to be upgraded early, it needs to be at a COST - such as slowing down alien expansion almost to a halt.
It's a basic RTS principle (from supcom2 anyway). If you go tech (research stations) you expand slowly because of your early investment in the tech "edge" over your opponent, and you're often beaten by a rush or a rapid expansion strat followed by a rush. Expand too much or focus on rush and neglect tech, and you're often beaten by tech if the techer holds off your rush.
When I Kamm, I make sure I have a close RT before dropping a 2nd hive. played a game about two hours ago where this was the case and I was able to rebuild our starting hive node from that one RT in comp lab and eventually won the game.
It's all about back up plans.
- marines don't need a second CC nearly as badly, and 3rd CC at all, so make marines need a second CC as much as aliens need a second hive, and then also need a 3rd CC like aliens do, or
- marines don't need a second CC nearly as badly, and 3rd CC at all, so make aliens not need a second hive as badly, and a 3rd hive at all.
- marines don't need a second CC nearly as badly, and 3rd CC at all, so make marines need a second CC as much as aliens need a second hive, and then also need a 3rd CC like aliens do, or
- marines don't need a second CC nearly as badly, and 3rd CC at all, so make aliens not need a second hive as badly, and a 3rd hive at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't what the thread is about. the problem the thread is about is that the only build order aliens can use in competitive play is instant hive drop into leap. The reason this is the case is that skulks are not effective in high skill games until they have leap. That is boring. Needs more strategic variety.
My suggestion: Increase damage drop-off to make it near useless against anything more than about 15 feet away to emphasize the risk against skulks. Add a slowdown of around 20% to marines wielding shotguns. Make the Lerk the counter to shotgun marines. In theory it should be one Lerk = two shotguns, at the moment its one shotgun = two dead Lerks.
Yes, if this were true, it would be a detriment. However, this is not true.
That being said, I think Celerity and Carapace are - in the early game - almost up on the level of leap. There are however other things to consider:
- RTs are really hard to hold. Hive provides protection for hive RT and the RT between 2 hives. This makes early hive drops much less risky than going for 2 extra harvesters (that need protection and can force the aliens to play even more defensibly).
- Cost for cele or cara = 45. Cost for hive and leap 65. This difference is paid back pretty easily by the RT protection of the hive, and since you need a hive anyway, the price is a steal when compared to the chambers.
- Chambers can be sniped, which especially in early game is a huge dent in alien economy. 30 res to replace.
- Leap is available on spawn, while chamber upgrades are often unavailable in hive defences due to marines spawncamping.
- 2nd hive unlocks later abilities.
- 2nd hive unlocks 2nd set of chambers.
- 2nd hive unlocks khammander-bought eggs for higher lifeforms.
So, all in all, even if the combat effects of various tech paths are somewhat on an equal footing, the quick hive strategy seems to provide several non-trivial advantages over any chamber upgrade path. These advantages are not, for the most part, directly related to skulk combat... So, I don't think this is a simple problem to be directly addressed by just skulk tweaks or price increases.
In reality, nobody stands still as a lerk unless they're hidden and not being shot at though, so the point is moot anyway, but I'm just saying - the shotgun "spread" makes it less effective over longer distances - and I'm talking really long distances like from one corner of cargo to the opposite corner of cargo.
The same stands for fast second hive. There needs to be a more accessible counter than good scouting + res locking.
While I agree with gorgeous that skulks without leap are underpowered against SG marines, I don't think buffing the skulks without leap will result in a lower desire for leap. Leap will than just overpower the skulk, making the 2nd hive strategy equally desirable. Increasing the time for shotguns to appear on the battlefield may be a solution for one part. But without increasing the risk for the 2nd hive strategy (= creating a better counter) it will remain this popular. Because leap is a powerful default-alien-upgrade.
The solution: Disconnecting it from hive 2 but increasing costs / time to create a "soonest point to appear in a round" while also having a "soonest point to appear and be economical" that lies equal to the shotgun appearance. Leap isn't even a choice to any other hive2-tech right now. It doesn't belong there if it destroys the available options, by being the most powerful of the options-group.
If a strategy is too good, don't nerf the strategy. Create a counter to increase the risk. Researching early shot gun is too little of a risk. Going 2nd hive is too little of a risk.
In reality, nobody stands still as a lerk unless they're hidden and not being shot at though, so the point is moot anyway, but I'm just saying - the shotgun "spread" makes it less effective over longer distances - and I'm talking really long distances like from one corner of cargo to the opposite corner of cargo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The one time I happen to fight a shotgun marine as a lerk while he is crossing crevice, yes, it is true. In the other 99.9% of encounters, it is not true.
It would not call a 40 TRes hivedrop legit.
But that just shows how well people on these forums understand the balance of the game.
Also I would like to point that we talked with flayra about other things as well. Such as alien earlygame.
Skulks are too fat and clunky, and lerk comes too late for the party. Starting PRes 25 again, or decrease cost of lerk to 25.
If both problems was fixed it would mean that aliens have a much better earlygame.
And that going fast 2nd hive and leap is still a viable strategy, without being the only viable strategy against decent marines.
The suggested cost increase for leap was if increasing hivecost to 50 didn't cut it.
That will need testing to say for sure.
wrong, but ey, i hope its added , will be funny to see super strong spikes
shotgun counter is not getting hit, which doesnt help as aliens are so weak now.
as ive been saying for awhile now, lerks need ranged spores. and its getting painfully obvious
counters shotguns and makes lerks relevant again.
The SG is a counter to any alienlifeform :>.
Thats one aspect of the game I dislike. There are way to less rts typical "counters" in this game. Thats one big reason why there are no much different tactics. Way to much "must have upgrades". Another reason is simply that there is no much stuff to upgrade/improve/build/ToDo .Fells like Starcraft with 1 1/2 race, no airunits, 1/2 restunits, only dmgupgrades, 1/2 mapsize. There are no much options now hmm?
The fact we are discussing this case shows that we arnt very happy with that game. Some people have to realize and accept that NS2 is muuuuuch more Shooter than RTS.
This game should need much more variables ----> more different tactics/Strategys. But well...its to late now . 2-3 weeks till release :/ .
That's crazy, imo.. there should be a large spread with lots of pellets to encourage the role of the weapon and make it less of a hard counter / jack of all trades.
More on topic: I think increasing the build time for hives is an appropriate thing to try
Are shotguns the reason why leap is being prioritized though, back to topic? :-)
1. in high level play skulks are really bad. This is especially true after the marines get a few upgrades. (w1+a1)
2. Shotguns make skulks even worse.
3. Skulks can't move around the map fast enough to apply pressure and defend rts at the same time. (thanks to pg marines can do this, plus alien rts take a much longer time to build and more res to place because of cysts)
Leap gives a sort of band-aid to all these problems.
The tricky thing is, skulks are better than marines at low skill levels, so buff to skulks would reek havoc on the game in pub play.
Since people for some reason think shotguns can shoot well across rooms, I just tested out some things in sub-sector. On the inner circle with a lerk sitting on the inner wall and me directly across from it: 4-6 shots to kill. The shotgun loses about 2/3 of its damage against a lerk when shooting just across the inner side of sub-sector.
Now let's talk about outter wall across the techpoint area to the other outter wall. The shotgun can't even shot this far. The damage fully falls off before the outter wall. Around the max range that the shotgun can shoot (outter wall sub -> opposite inner wall sub), it takes 8-10 shotgun hits with the crosshair directly over the lerk to kill it.
I also tried out stability monitor. Shooting from the doorway to courtyard -> pillar just past the RT (the little jut out that covers the powernode). No carapace, weapon 0. It took 5-8 shots over a few different attempts to kill this lerk here.
tl;dr: Shotguns don't kill well at medium to long range. If you're dying to shotguns at these distances then it is because you let them shoot an entire clip at you or you were already low.
Since people for some reason think shotguns can shoot well across rooms, I just tested out some things in sub-sector. On the inner circle with a lerk sitting on the inner wall and me directly across from it: 4-6 shots to kill. The shotgun loses about 2/3 of its damage against a lerk when shooting just across the inner side of sub-sector.
Now let's talk about outter wall across the techpoint area to the other outter wall. The shotgun can't even shot this far. The damage fully falls off before the outter wall. Around the max range that the shotgun can shoot (outter wall sub -> opposite inner wall sub), it takes 8-10 shotgun hits with the crosshair directly over the lerk to kill it.
I also tried out stability monitor. Shooting from the doorway to courtyard -> pillar just past the RT (the little jut out that covers the powernode). No carapace, weapon 0. It took 5-8 shots over a few different attempts to kill this lerk here.
tl;dr: Shotguns don't kill well at medium to long range. If you're dying to shotguns at these distances then it is because you let them shoot an entire clip at you or you were already low.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But shotguns also have a pistol which does decent ranged damage so its still not a total ranged trade off.
How long do 4-6 shots take from a SG versus how long it takes spikes to kill an A1-3 marine? Thats really the question...no one said a SG can 1 shot a lerk across a room..just that rate of damage a SG can deliver makes trying to simply snipe from a distance dangerous and not in lerks favour.
How long do 4-6 shots take from a SG versus how long it takes spikes to kill an A1-3 marine? Thats really the question...no one said a SG can 1 shot a lerk across a room..just that rate of damage a SG can deliver makes trying to simply snipe from a distance dangerous and not in lerks favour.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's very rare that a shotgunner will pull out a pistol to shoot anything. It opens him up to a rush where the time to switch back to his shotgun will likely cause his death.
Also, the kill speed of the SG vs spikes is not the question at all. The lerks fly around at over double the speed of a marine. Where does that factor in? It's easier for a lerk to hit a marine than it is for a marine to hit a lerk. A lerk can disengage from any battle he is not winning, heal, and reengage. A shotgun cannot run; he dies. There's much more than seeing who simply wins a stand-still-shoot-out to consider who is more powerful in a 1v1 or in a given battle scenario.
Except when a lerk is trying to snipe him...most good marines will grab a pistol and start shooting at the lerk...prompting him to move and either attack or clear off. If he attacks then they have a SG ready to go and a lerk already with 1-2 hits on him.
I have yet to see a lerk close faster than a marine can switch back to SG (assuming is loaded).
<!--quoteo(post=1986809:date=Oct 4 2012, 02:37 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Oct 4 2012, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986809"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, the kill speed of the SG vs spikes is not the question at all. The lerks fly around at over double the speed of a marine. Where does that factor in? It's easier for a lerk to hit a marine than it is for a marine to hit a lerk. A lerk can disengage from any battle he is not winning, heal, and reengage. A shotgun cannot run; he dies. There's much more than seeing who simply wins a stand-still-shoot-out to consider who is more powerful in a 1v1 or in a given battle scenario.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry but thats exactly what is being questioned here...the ability for a lerk to counter the SG.
Whilst most lerks will get in a bite...and then spike this is not the question..but whether the SG has a weakness against the lerk at range(ie SG Marine will likely lose).
So ranged attack who can place more damage in shortest period of time (speed hampers aiming as much as being targeted..especially when both parties are moving). How long will it take to get off 6 SG shots and how long to spike a marine at same distance?
The discussion about why 2nd hive is so important came down to counter for SG..the claim being that a lerk was the counter to a SG as could spike at range.
Most good lerks I have seen would rarely do this as a form of ranged attack..instead they would risk swooping in and getting a bite whilst team mates also attack....the limitation currently for lerk is the need for team mates (in fact all aliens struggle with this...only exo's have this issue for marines) as 1v1 lerk v SG...lerks lose more than they win.
But I guess they are overlooking this wonderful counter to SG right and should just sit back and try spiking from a distance?
Shotguns are cheaper than any lifeform upgrade besides the gorge, and can be (usually WILL be) picked up by a teammate near the original owner, dropping the cost to 10, 6.6, 5, 4, 3.3 per shotgun as that shotgun gets passed from owner to owner. A straight-up pres comparison shows that shotguns are cheap... albeit maybe not for the guy who actually has to buy it. Or, another way of looking at it, someone has to drop 20 res on a shotgun, but then a bunch of people have the opportunity to score a free shotgun afterwards, if they're at least travelling in groups.
The tight shotgun spread is a good thing; it lets players who can aim actually perform with the shotgun at ranges outside of point blank. I could go for the damage falloff being slightly higher, but that's about it.
Good thing nobody gives a ###### about competitive play, as the level of teamwork required is not feasible for random players in a pub game.
<!--quoteo(post=1987032:date=Oct 4 2012, 09:35 PM:name=Shrike3O)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrike3O @ Oct 4 2012, 09:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The tight shotgun spread is a good thing; it lets players who can aim actually perform with the shotgun at ranges outside of point blank. I could go for the damage falloff being slightly higher, but that's about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's like saying sniper rifles in games should be perfectly accurate while not scoped, so that it allows good players to be instant killers at both long and short range. Such mechanics will turn this game into more of a COD remake than it already is.
also, weapons stay on the field for far too long, you can die > respawn > phase > sprint to the location you died and pick up your dropped weapon :/
raise marine extractor cost by 5 res, reduce alien upgrade building cost by 5 res and increase building time by 30s, reduce alien harvester build time by 10-20s.
marines have no reason not to go early shotty, since they can cap the whole map while teching and building. likewise, aliens cannot afford early upgrades because their cost/benefit is not nearly as good as that of 2nd hive abilities.
-force marines to be more defensive and play more cautiously, since losing extractors is a bigger deal and it takes longer for extractors to pay off
-not allow marines to cap the entire map at the beginning of the match. seriously, when was the last time you saw even extractor counts between equal teams at the beginning of the game? usually marines shoot straight up to 4-6 extractors while the aliens are still on 2.
-allow some serious choices on each team.
-allow skulk harass to be more effective.
-give aliens some breathing room; fast hive 2 is in response to skulks getting dominated by shotties.
-scouting becomes important again, increases strategic depth - scouting early to reveal build orders a necessity.