Base rush should not be end-game tactic.
MisterYoon
Join Date: 2012-08-18 Member: 155747Members
Join Date: 2012-08-18 Member: 155747Members
Powernode, low health CC.. Regardless of another imba things for both aliens and marines, it's obvious that base rush is itself too op and has ruined too many games too much.
To give example of pub game, i don't think it's only me, who joined alien in the middle of the game, which marines dominate, and gather discouraged skulks, just rush powernode and then win.
Rushing base itself is fairly okay. However, what is not okay is that they can win directly by rushing base. That means, it's okay that aliens can distract marines and let them lose some resources and time by rushing base, but not more than that.
Of course i remember some lame turtling of marines at ns1. And therefore i was pretty happy to see power node system, which can punch out lame turtling marines. But problem is that it ruins furthurmore some good matches with good marines with good teamwork. Think about how much marines lose because of base rush. To care of it, they won't be able to get map control practically, to not care of it, they lose even one-sided match caused by lame rushes.
Again, i mention no imbalances anymore except this. There are of course still lots of lame or overpowered tactics, agianst which opponents have almost no chance. But it's still true that base rush is the one of the biggest imbalances. So I hope none of you reply like this "As in some cases(GL+Jetpack or something) aliens are weak than marines, they need to keep being able to base rush and end the game"
Anyway, i want it be handled. Increasing health of powernode or CC up? or giving specific upgrade for that? Dunno, but it must be fixed.
To give example of pub game, i don't think it's only me, who joined alien in the middle of the game, which marines dominate, and gather discouraged skulks, just rush powernode and then win.
Rushing base itself is fairly okay. However, what is not okay is that they can win directly by rushing base. That means, it's okay that aliens can distract marines and let them lose some resources and time by rushing base, but not more than that.
Of course i remember some lame turtling of marines at ns1. And therefore i was pretty happy to see power node system, which can punch out lame turtling marines. But problem is that it ruins furthurmore some good matches with good marines with good teamwork. Think about how much marines lose because of base rush. To care of it, they won't be able to get map control practically, to not care of it, they lose even one-sided match caused by lame rushes.
Again, i mention no imbalances anymore except this. There are of course still lots of lame or overpowered tactics, agianst which opponents have almost no chance. But it's still true that base rush is the one of the biggest imbalances. So I hope none of you reply like this "As in some cases(GL+Jetpack or something) aliens are weak than marines, they need to keep being able to base rush and end the game"
Anyway, i want it be handled. Increasing health of powernode or CC up? or giving specific upgrade for that? Dunno, but it must be fixed.
Comments
There are far too many mechanics built into the game to prevent these base rushes that are "too op." The most painfully obvious one is the marine beacon. The other one is making at least one infantry portal at your second commander chair.
If marines are "distracting" you and the commander doesn't see a rush SO LARGE that they kill the power before he can even beacon (that has got to be the ENTIRE team with perfect coordination) then he's simply a bad commander. The game will and should punish bad commanding.
Regardless HeatSurge, you should go read the Competitive Play forum and see what Archaea and the entire competitive community thinks about it.
I don't think you've seen how fast cc's, obs, and even to an extent powernodes go down to 6 skulks.
If they get the sneak on and your nearest marine is 10 seconds out(1 rt away), its gg. No matter what, the obs will die under 4 seconds and beacon will most likely not go off. The best case scenario is you lose the obs, map control, but save the CC.
Basically, the threat magnitude of base rush is out of whack and is messing with marine meta game. For example, powerbuilding obs shouldnt be the best strategy over and over and over again, nor should there be overwhelming pressure to play in the dark and have 3 marines stay in base.
*edit*
The same applies to aliens. Fast hive is the only viable alien strat, which makes the most effective marine strat a counter rush on their main hive harvester.
There are far too many mechanics built into the game to prevent these base rushes that are "too op." The most painfully obvious one is the marine beacon. The other one is making at least one infantry portal at your second commander chair.
If marines are "distracting" you and the commander doesn't see a rush SO LARGE that they kill the power before he can even beacon (that has got to be the ENTIRE team with perfect coordination) then he's simply a bad commander. The game will and should punish bad commanding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
According to NS2stats, I've won 3/4ths of my commanding matches, but every now and then, I still miss the power rush. There's almost nothing to alert you to this. I wish the observatory had more health, or the Commander Chair Console would say "Phase Gate/Power Node/Observatory" under attack. Or better yet, allow the commander to customize his own warnings.
1. No MotionTracking: Means, you have no chance seeing a bulk of skulks rushing your base until they are in the range of your obs.
2. Teammates in your base get killed by the skulks rush, but don't inform the commander about it
3. The MOST important reason why you can easily miss a under attack power node: You get spammed with ammo and healthpack requests/have to support troops with armory and stuff as comm so you don't even recognize that the node is under attack. And if you recognize it, it may be too late for a distress beacon.
To avoid point 3... power nodes which power a CC or let's say 3 or 4 buildings have a prioritized WARNING/ATTENTION message for the commander. All other requests get suppressed. So if the commanders presses SPACE his view will be focused on the power node instead of the last marine who (accidentally) pressed the medpack request button.
The same is for kahmmander if upgrade buildings are under attack.
This would help a little bit against unforseen rushes. Ehm...
To the topic: ;)
You can always use NANO SHIELD which heavily reduces the damage done and distress beacon to save the node.
I understand that, and it's a problem. In pub play, it's hardly been that much of an issue for me though.
Oh sorry they get to spawn at a hive under attack with 0 upgrades no matter what stage of the game....
Bring back MC mechanic on spurs and allow hive teleporting like NS1.
Asymmetry still maintained as marines have 2 options...aliens have 1.
Beacon costs money (energy was better!)
Beacon can not be canceled and you can not beacon single marines
Low HP Powernodes
Absence of powerpacks (dropping powerpack to power IP in case of emergency)
Useless turrets
But besides that, sometimes it's just failure of the own com. For example, dropping mines and have people spread them out in the base helps a lot against skulks and they are rather cheap aswell.
Noticing that power or upgrades are under attack can be a bit hard at time, but at times you feel like you are struggling with the interface itself anyway (for example, I don't know why, but grouping buildings/units is a pain in the ass and doesn't work very well..)
But seriously. Being able to electrify nodes with a CC attached would be good at preventing skulks from taking out the power unless it was a hugely concentrated effort
Not only are both those responses to alien's mobility and speed, but there is also a lack of a weak "win button" (powernodes) in hive rooms. There's also effective defensive structures like whips, hydras, and then the passive upgrades like cloaking, extra andren, and healing, whereas marines only have mines that can easily be avoided with alien vision.
imo, the solution has always been to remove power nodes from TP rooms, and allow CCs to power those rooms since they don't require power to run anyways. Now aliens have to actually destroy bases properly instead as well as worry about spawning marines (just like eggs, hey!) This makes even more sense to me these days since the only reason not to do things this way was "powernodes allow you to easily take down sentry farms" ... and since no one in their right mind would use sentries anymore..
Hmm, having CCs replace powernodes in techpoint rooms? I like it.
I've never been much of a fan of the "win" button in marine base. When it is more effective to counter-rush marine base instead of defend a hive when its attacked, i think there is a problem (this either forces a beacon, or the marines lose their main base, practically ending the game in one swoop)
The tooltip for the CC would have to be changed to read along the lines of "Primary marine structure, supplies power to all sockets on the map, accessed through building powernodes" for immersion reasons
Well.. I would say alien weak "win button" is the eggs. Lack of eggs in NS1 kept hives alive whereas eggs in ns2 mean marines can kill all the eggs and its almost the same thing.. only aliens from outside the hive can save it compared to only marines outside of the power node being taken down can save the marine base.. thats just my point of view though..
That would make the "win button" the infantry portal instead. Even lower health than a power node...
I posted some suggestions here: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121566&view=findpost&p=1986494" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1986494</a>
And this entire thread (from the "competitive play" forum) is pretty much about the same thing anyway: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121566" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=121566</a>
I posted some suggestions here: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121566&view=findpost&p=1986494" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1986494</a>
And this entire thread (from the "competitive play" forum) is pretty much about the same thing anyway: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121566" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=121566</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If CC's health becomes as high as previous ns1's, i think it's damn good idea. Powernode is kinda far away to defend, but CC is not, as everyone beacons back nearby CC and even spawn right next to there.
Anyway, don't call those who lost cos' of lame 8+ skulks 5- secs powernode or CC rush as a 'bad commander'. I am pretty sure there are lots of people who are far better, professional than anybody and have lost by base rush pretty lot. For example, i watched pretty damn lots of competitive matches which marines were a bit winning but suddenly lost by one rush. Would you call them still 'too bad'?? And sorry to say, but i am actually not bad commander as i've played RTS games for an age, and got ranked on front page of several games(Company of Heroes etc.), however i got punched several matches caused by 'that' rush, even i was as usual dominating game with good marine players. I don't think it's fun or something to see immediate 8 skulks at one tiny blue glowing thing or behind hugh CC and then room being dark or round being lost with signal right in the middle of the screen.
+edit : I've played NS1 since late 2003, and i've commanded most of matches that i played since then. And my worst experiences(of course ns2 is beta and i have nothing against imba, but just to say.) are to lose some recent(between august and early september) ns2 pub matches in 5 secs by base rushes. Worse than anything like competitive play of ns1.
Keep people at base to defend or have a commander who will not hesitate to beacon. (if you dont have the 10res for beacon then you are being greedy with your money and this is one of the games many tradeoffs).
If aliens see that marines are attacking and spread out (or have slow exos on the field) it is a smart, tactical decision to divert all forces to hit marines where it hurts the most.
It's true, but ending the game which marines as opponents are neither turtling nor losing, even dominating in less than 10 secs is in my opinion never relevant.
And again, i have nothing against base rush, it's the most decent tactic to distract marines and hurt them, but it should not be more than that. I wrote it clearly at the first topic. Have you seen 5 secs zergling rush at Starcraft II? Or 5 secs Panther rush at COH? Again and again, base CC or powernode rush itself should mostly be a tactic to distract marines and make turning point for aliens, or in some cases to beat turtling marines. But the fact is it ends the game in 5 secs, and that's just not good.
Ave Brother!
We may lose the comms
We may lose our obs, but we will always have energy in our hearts and minds!
ooh you just made me think of something!
1. BRING BACK ENERGY
2. MAKE TURRETS POWERFUL AGAIN
3. MAKE TURRETS USE ENERGY TO FIRE
So this way, you can have turrets defend the entire map if you want. however the more turrets firing, the faster the energy gets drained. And once that energy is gone, the no turret can fire.
Or you can put 1 or 2 turrets in a key location for which would be able to sustain fire, as the energy would regen as fast as it would drain for a few turrets.
Turrets will still be awesome at deterring 1-3 skulk ambushes, however a sustained ambushes or alien turret trickery would drain the comms energy.
Solves turtling (comm can still turret spam, but the turrets won't fire for long since it would put a big strain on the energy). ANd makes turrets awesome.
Do i get a cookie? :)
The marine equivalent is GL-JP rush, and you don't need many to do it. Now you can argue that this is far more expensive than aliens rush, and requires 2 CC so isn't really an act of desperation. Personally I think marines just need sentries back in a defensive role, so at least alien rushes are delayed sufficiently for the beacon.
The marine equivalent is GL-JP rush, and you don't need many to do it. Now you can argue that this is far more expensive than aliens rush, and requires 2 CC so isn't really an act of desperation. Personally I think marines just need sentries back in a defensive role, so at least alien rushes are delayed sufficiently for the beacon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah penalty for lame 90% marines being exo, that's what i find cool, but problem is it ruins even good teamworking marines.
Sentries seem currently the only choice, but it will cause another problems...
The marine equivalent is GL-JP rush, and you don't need many to do it. Now you can argue that this is far more expensive than aliens rush, and requires 2 CC so isn't really an act of desperation. Personally I think marines just need sentries back in a defensive role, so at least alien rushes are delayed sufficiently for the beacon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yea.. you really don't need to have the cc/powernode/obs die in 4 seconds to make this possible.
Also, exo should be beaconable. Its far too exploitable for marine teams that know what their doing (jp/exo mix) where beacon no longer loses you forward pressure at the forward phasegate - aliens can no longer force beacon. On the other side, its far too unintuitive for new players who all go exo and lose the game in some cheesy way.