"Cheating" by disabling atmo/shadows?
HeatSurge
Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
I know it can never really be ideal, but has anyone put thought into the issues with players getting an advantage by turning off certain settings, especially:
- atmospherics - fog can obscure things
- shadows - shadows can also obscure things, and even though the no shadows option has "burnt in" shadows, there are certain areas which are brightened by having no shadows it seems...
- atmospherics - fog can obscure things
- shadows - shadows can also obscure things, and even though the no shadows option has "burnt in" shadows, there are certain areas which are brightened by having no shadows it seems...
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Comments
Flashlight would be my biggest reason for turning atmospherics off in the first place, it is great at blinding your teammates and only marginal at helping you see in the dark.
It is, actually. Having better hardware is also cheating in a sense, as well as stickers on the screen (to assist aiming, etc.). But you can't really enforce people to run a low or set resolution, use the same mouse, have the same hardware, not put stickers on their screen, etc, etc., and have the same everything - unless you're at the same physical location in some kind of scrim/tournament environment.
So, you have to draw the line somewhere.
However, what you can do is force shadows and atmospherics on, or look into the differences a little closer IMO.
One thing, for example, is how the flashlights create a cone of fog right now. I think it's pretty and cool, so I keep atmo on, but I think the opacity of the "fog" can be toned down considerably; it should also not "stack" as much with other flashlights, e.g. it shouldn't get in the way of seeing as much as it does right now. I've learned how to "see through it" but it could be turned down a little. I haven't experimented with shadows that much.
get off your high horse. It isn't cheating because it isn't against the rules. If the rules of the game/server/tournament/league let you do it, it isn't cheating. The option is in the game, live with it or create a custom server that forces these options to be configured the way you want them to be.
In competitive play people are going to do whatever they can with in the rules to get an edge.
In public play people would prefer to be able to customize their game to remove things that bother them. In the end they are just trying to maximize the amount of fun they have with the game.
Are runners cheating when they wear shoes that fit? Seems to me that custom shoes would be an unfair advantage, lets go ahead and ban that.
-as an alien player, you will always see marines. they just can't hide in the dark, and even if they could there would still be alien vision.
-as a marine player, you will always see aliens in your LoS, unless in rooms without power, which is how it should be. if you can look into really dark corners with the flashlight. aliens can't hide in the shadows, they have to hide <i>behind objects</i> to be effectively hidden.
Oh well, at least make the flashlight fog less opaque and it'll be good enough I suppose -_- . A lot of other bigger things need to be handled before release too...
<!--quoteo(post=1987222:date=Oct 4 2012, 11:41 PM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Oct 4 2012, 11:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987222"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are runners cheating when they wear shoes that fit? Seems to me that custom shoes would be an unfair advantage, lets go ahead and ban that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since you like analogies, how about car racing - a much more appropriate analogy where the competition is as much about the driver's physical skill and endurance (as in your running analogy) as much as it is about mechanical superiority? Do you think someone running a stock car would be in a fair race against someone with a racing car?
Edit: Interesting article to keep with the running theme: <a href="http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/01/amputee-sprinte/" target="_blank">http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/01/amputee-sprinte/</a>
We should agree that both analogies don't really apply well though ;-) . This is hardly a problem where the game is 95% about reflexes than it is about hiding in the shadows (e.g. counter-strike), but there's a large "non-twitch/stealth" element to NS2 - and that's heavily tied into exactly how the game looks with different options.
i myself turned it off for the sake of some more fps. if you consider that cheating then i hereby demand that you artifically lower your fps to my level so you cannot be considered a cheater yourself :)
The only thing that actually (ever?) matters is what is enforced. I enjoy my FPS just as everyone else. And yes, I do have a tech advantage over some people. Am I a cheater, in a sense, because of that? Sure. Maybe not the same severity as a cheater with a wallhack, but my hardware/resolution does give me a distinct advantage over others, especially people who get low FPS even on low settings and can't do anything about it. And because of that, they lose even though they might personally be better than me.
It's the same as calling littering a crime. It is, but not as serious as murder :-) .
it was not a serious demand, i wanted you to notice how it feels to be labled a cheater due to technical/performance reasons.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Am I a cheater, in a sense, because of that? Sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, you are not imo: you are not breaking the rules of the game, it is designed to run with good fps.
the only way i could consider atmospherics as cheataing is if it was enforced by UWE, but that might make it unplayable for people with certain graphic cards or low fps. i really don't think that'd be worth it: the unfairness due to fps gaps seems higher to me than some people potentially overlooking something. maybe in a few years when the game runs smooth for the vast majority of people, but only if there are no graphic card issues.
Now please go back to xbox360.
Here's why...
Graphics Menu (FPS) - 56
Shadow Cost (FPS) - 17
Atmos Cost (FPS) - 9
GFX Menu now (FPS) - 30
Now, when I go in-game, that magical 56 FPS, turns into 40 FPS at round start. With new settings, 18FPS at game start.
Also, by disabling Shadows, I am at a dis-advantage. I used to play with shadows before performance went downhill, and I could see enemies coming because of their shadows. Turning off shadows now means I have lost that advantage. Trust me, being able to see an enemy coming round a corner is a much bigger advantage, than having a slightly brighter screen.
Just so you know, here are the other costs to my system from the GFX menu options..
AA - 6FPS
AO - 10/23FPS (Med/High)
Bloom - 10FPS
Reflections - 0FPS (so I leave them on)
I have no AA and no AO. I now have a jagged screen, so I can't make out enemies at distance, because the jaggies blur scenery and hiding enemies.
You sir have no clue.
Of course, if you buy me a computer that can run the game with all the bells and whistles, I would gratefully accept and run with all bells and whistles, I love the beauty of the game, but my PC can't handle it. Of course, I doubt you are so generous as to buy me a new gaming PC, so maybe you should just go away and think before you come up with completely stupid ignorant ideas.
<!--quoteo(post=1987331:date=Oct 5 2012, 12:16 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 5 2012, 12:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987331"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I despise consoles and everything they stand for, but maybe this is ONE area where having a fixed configuration is a benefit :-) .<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, you hate consoles, and you have no clue about PC gaming, maybe you should go outside and take up a real sport. Where the playing field is completely level. If you can find one of course....
Then coding a LUA aimbot pre 220 wasn't cheating either, since there was no defined rule saying aimbots weren't allowed.
as for the graphic settings: i don't think they plan on implementing a force-atmospherics "feature" after adding a checkbox for it.
as for the graphic settings: i don't think they plan on implementing a force-atmospherics "feature" after adding a checkbox for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whether it is cheating or not is irrelevant to me, I was just highlighting the flaw in his reasoning. Things like graphical settings, whether they be high, or low, gives an undeniable advantage in game. Can that advantage be feasibly negated somehow? Probably not. Is an unfair advantage the same as a cheat? Maybe, maybe not. Its definitely worth thinking about though.
Though with the massive discrepancies in frame rates, atmospheric settings really should be the least of your "cheating" worries.
Why the hell would you put stickers on the screen? Is it to make the cross hair more obvious?
<!--quoteo(post=1987456:date=Oct 5 2012, 11:17 AM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Oct 5 2012, 11:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987456"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why the hell would you put stickers on the screen? Is it to make the cross hair more obvious?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
people did this in CS 1.6 because you could not change your crosshair and the scout had 100% accuracy without needing to zoom in.