Hypermutation

Laosh'RaLaosh'Ra Join Date: 2011-12-09 Member: 137232Members
edited October 2012 in NS2 General Discussion
<div class="IPBDescription">it IS viable!</div>now before you stop reading right away, ask yourself honestly: when is the last time you have actually tried it out <b>properly</b>?

few commanders research it and people who suggest that usually do so as a joke. i think this is because it seemed not very viable at the beginning when it was introduced, but things have changed. since people don't even give it a try, many seem to misunderstand it's mechanics (people ingame are often surprised when i tell them what it does), let alone find out all the possible benefits.

so before posting some personal positive experiences, <b>here are the mechanics</b> for people who don't know them:
-you can change your evolution-traits as often as you want (except the shift-slot which is stuck with hypermutation until you die)
-you get a 100% refund whenever chosing a different lifeform (e.g. fade->gorge will leave you with 40 pres more than before)
-this refund is taken into account when upgrading to a higher lifeform (e.g. you can go fade->onos when having 25 pres)
-you evolve a lot faster
<i>edit:
-hypermutation costs only 5 tres to upgrade (15 including the spur), compared to 15 for adrenaline or celerity (25 including the spur)</i>

so what are the possible benefits? here are <b>some examples</b> from personal experience:
whenever you die and are left without enough pres for your desired lifeform (lets say fade) you can go gorge or lerk which usually keeps you alive much easier than as a skulk. not only can you be more useful while waiting for your pres, you also gather them faster by staying alive.
if hypermutation was chosen early on (never seen this happening yet) you could probably benefit from this as well, doing your task as gorge or lerk while still not falling behind your desired timing of going fade or onos later on.
when your hive is damaged and needs healing, you don't lose any pres by switching to gorge and then back to fade or whichever lifeform you were before.
you can also temporarily go gorge somewhere inbetween to quickly drop 3 hydras. there is little risk involved: if you are surprised and killed as gorge, you only lose 10 pres and not more.
you can simply adapt more to the situation of the game by changing lifeform and evolution trait whenever you want. unless your refund pushes you to 100 pres, you will not lose anything (and please note: whenever you gain pres above 100 it is distributed among your team so its not really lost). adapting means responding to the enemies tech/strategy/playstyle as well as the consistency of your own team e.g. bile bomb was just researched but there is no gorge for an upcoming siege, or there is no lerk in the team to provide cover for spores or umbra -> you can almost instantly fill that position without losing pres.

hypermutation is obviously more viable <b>when you have multiple evolution-traits</b> at your disposal:
when wounded, you can switch your carapace with regeneration. once healed, you can switch it back. because your maximum armor is lower and because your evolution speed is very high, this procedure is usually done quite fast. if you need to regenerate from severe injury, you can switch to camouflage for the duration.
you can pick camouflage to cloak your egg for a longer mutation (e.g. skulk->onos) and change it back for something like feign death quickly afterwards.
you can change your playstyle without dying inbetween. e.g. you can go carapace, feign death to defend a hive against a GL rush or regeneration and silence to lurk around the rest of the map.



well, i have not used hypermutation a lot yet (these experiences are from top of my head, i'm sure there are many more benefits i don't know or think about right now), because it is very very rarely seen in any game and i usually have to request it from the commander, meaning i usually experienced it in an environment in which aliens had more or less the upper hand already. so i cannot claim it is more powerful than adrenaline or celerity, all i want to say is that it might not be as bad as you think, especially lategame.
so i would really like to see this given more of a chance since it is a very fun mechanic to use: gradually upgrading your way through all lifeforms feels very rewarding and switching evolutions around adds a bit more depth than most of the other traits have.
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Comments

  • Mr.GreedyMr.Greedy Join Date: 2012-07-21 Member: 154270Members
    edited October 2012
    No way! To use hypermutation usefull like u said, it required minimum two hives, two upgrades bye one shade or crag hive and enough p-res. Any other upgrade u can use instant (exept adrenalin @ first hive is less effective). Not to say that u lose a passive effect (celerity/adren)that helps in fight. And its also a very risky gameplay if u plan to go fade and die with a Lerk + hypermutation. Way to much disadvantages.
  • DarkBlueArtDarkBlueArt Join Date: 2012-09-16 Member: 159584Members
    Hi there,

    I have to admit, I am one of the players thinking of hypermutation as a joke, when the comm researched it earlier than for example carapce.

    I don't think, your arguments are invalid, but for me, there are just too many reasons against hypermutation.

    First of all, the "rivals" celerity and adrenaline are very usefull in combat and out of combat (for example faster traveling),
    while hypermutation is only viable out of combat. It does not help you to kill things faster or die more seldom.
    Second, as a not very skilled player, I am rather dead, than get into a situation when I could change from fade to gorge and then to an onos.
    Because beforehand marines kill me as a fade or gorge before the advantage of hypermutation would kick in.
    Third, most of the time it doesn't matter if you are evolving 10 seconds or 50. The only time would be when marines rush your hive where you are evolving as an onos. (Moments, when I could bite parts out of my desk.) And you have to evolve the hypermutation before you evolve to an higher lifeform, which slows down the benefit a bit.

    Your argument of adapting to your situation sounds quite interesting, never thought of this. Carapace in battle, regenaration out of combat sounds nice.
    But most lifeforms (besides the slow onos) are much faster running to a hive or gorge or crag and heal there, than evolving regenaration...

    So, I admit, on paper, hypermutation sounds sweet. And with a slightly other gameplay, it would be more useful. (e.g. bigger maps, longer alien span of life, longer games).
    But at the moment, the game is too fast-paced, to let this ability shine.
    So the other two are more suitable to this gameplay.
    Maybe I would use it more often, if it where a shade-ability rather than shift. But right now it isn't able to hold a candle to them.

    so long
  • DaeicaDaeica Join Date: 2012-10-05 Member: 161595Members
    I like hypermutation as well, on paper, but when it comes to in-game action Adrenaline is so important for almost everyone except a skulk and maybe Onos.

    I would love if Hypermutation was moved away from the celerity tree, and maybe a over-all upgrade from a hive, because what you say is very true; You can gain a great benefiet from micromanaging it properly, and you'd regenerate the lost energy while evolving, but it is highly situational. I'd love it as a non-celerity tool though.

    As DarkBlueArt also mentions, the maps are simply too small, with the rare exception of middle points such as Nano and Crossroads, but even so having a Khammander throw down a couple of crags solves that issue.

    Proper tutorialization could help clear up the confusion about hypermutation because you're right, most don't know what it does. The wording on the tooltip doesn't help much either.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited October 2012
    Yea would be cool if hypermutation was like a special 'structure' that you could build for your team entirely unrelated to the type of hive. (Players should then just all get it) It would make for some interesting strategy and general build variety. The ability in itself has merit, but it's just not good enough compared to the other upgrades and certainly not at 1 hive when your upgrade slots are limited.

    Bring back focus on the shade instead of hypermutation.
  • jergodzjergodz Join Date: 2011-05-20 Member: 99745Members
    The only thing I ever use it for is the gorge, place your 3 hydras at a total cost of 9 instead of 19, other than that it's not very usefull.. The evolve menu needs hotkeys though, so you can do a quick skulk getaway
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Members
    You can also turn into a gorge to heal. The thing is imo that the shift slot is by far the most useful.
  • TimMcTimMc Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143945Members
    edited October 2012
    Going lerk without celerity, going gorge without adrenaline.


    lol.


    <!--quoteo(post=1987854:date=Oct 6 2012, 09:52 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Oct 6 2012, 09:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987854"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yea would be cool if hypermutation was like a special 'structure' that you could build for your team entirely unrelated to the type of hive. (Players should then just all get it) It would make for some interesting strategy and general build variety. The ability in itself has merit, but it's just not good enough compared to the other upgrades and certainly not at 1 hive when your upgrade slots are limited.

    Bring back focus on the shade instead of hypermutation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I would like this. Hypermutation chambers where people nearby could recoup their pres investment in a lifeform, or swap around their upgrades would be very nice.
  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    edited October 2012
    This may sound absurd, but while reading about how resources are refunded when changing life forms with hyper mutation... well... I felt that that is how it should always work, even without the upgrade.
  • HeatSurgeHeatSurge Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    I think having hypermutation on all the time would be kind of op.

    It's actually not a "bad" or "useless" ability because you can go lerk>fade>onos much more cheaply and quickly (and if the team needs it) and if you survive. However, I just feel like the downsides of having no adrenaline or celerity are too annoying. I still like adrenaline for lerk and fade, and celerity is nice for onos, so I'd always be "missing" those upgrades pretty badly if I went hypermutation instead.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    How would it be OP if you had to research it as a khammander? I think it's perfectly balance-able. It'd just be another tech path, the more strategic depth we give to the game the better tbh. (The alien side certainly could use a little more)
  • KhyronKhyron Join Date: 2012-02-02 Member: 143308Members
    @Laosh'Ra
    I respect what you're trying to do, educating the community and promoting alternative strategies to enrich the gameplay. I even agree with all of the ways you listed how hypermutation can be useful. Unfortunately the benefits of hypermutation are akin to the benefits of rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic. They are simply inconsequential compared to the iceberg that is celerity.

    Celerity in particular is the new carapace. A universal upgrade that you're underpowered without, overpowered with. Even if base speeds were buffed and the celerity bonus was reduced, the case for hypermutation is still weak.

    <u>Compared to the alternative traits</u>
    Selecting hypermutation precludes celerity and adrenaline until you die. All lifeforms rely on mobility for survival. Celerity is a direct mobility advantage for all lifeforms while adrenaline is indirectly through blink, charge and leap. Without that mobility advantage, a lifeform must play more cautiously or die more often. The main benefit of hypermutation is lost as soon as you die. Therefore a lifeform with hypermutation is less combat effective than any of the alternatives.

    <u>In a strategic context</u>
    The advantages of hypermutation become less relevant as the game progresses. For gorging, hydras becomes less relevant because hydras don't scale with marine tech. In the late game, the Khamm can drop lifeform eggs for those that need it. Temporarily swapping cara for regen becomes less relevant as forward crag bases appear. Most importantly, researching hypermutation at 25 tRes is done at the expense of something else whereas getting a second hive up and unlocking abilities like leap, spores and blink provides immediate, tangible benefits.
  • ogzogz Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9765Members
    hypermutation is obviously more viable when you have multiple evolution-traits at your disposal:

    I think thats a good starting point to why hyper is not the choice of first upgrade :p
  • OutlawDrOutlawDr Join Date: 2009-06-21 Member: 67887Members
    edited October 2012
    Make hypermutation be the shifts passive ability rather than the current energy regen (which is very blah..)
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Upgrades are just too important to the Alien team to use a slot on one that does not contribute to combat in any way.
  • AurOn2AurOn2 COOKIES&#33; FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS&#33; Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
    Why its evan an upgrade in the first place, makes me giggle.
    Remove it or make it a normal upgrade that happens without having to select it. kthx.
  • HeatSurgeHeatSurge Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited October 2012
    It might be interesting if it was moved to a researchable, all-lifeform, permanent 3-hive upgrade like stomp. If that were the case, it might always be researched first before anything else though (i.e. "too good")... unless the price was prohibitive (50 res?).
  • Laosh'RaLaosh'Ra Join Date: 2011-12-09 Member: 137232Members
    edited October 2012
    first of all thanks for all the feedback, even if it's quite negative as expected.
    so from what i read the major issue people see with it is it's lack of combat viability. again: have you really tried it properly, as in several matches and multiple times per match? what it comes down to that you can invest your pres as early as possible instead keeping it idle in your pool. it's like a commander spending his ressources for upgrades instead of waiting until he has enough to research all of them in a row: the earlier you have it on the field, the better (because the enemy marines become deadlier by the minute).
    since you can stay alive much easier, you can effectively reach state of fade or w/e faster than without hypermutation (if you skip the gorge hydras). how is being a faster fade instead of a skulk not combat viable? how is being a lerk inbetween (instead of a skulk) not combat viable? how is having carapace instead of regen when you really need it (massive rush) not combat viable?
    as for celerity (which is not as combat viable since you lose the bonus in combat): lerk and fade can travel faster than a skulk, even if he has leap. you also save many seconds from the mutation, even if you switch back and forth all the time (it's really really fast). traveling the map faster is nice to adapt to the enemies strategic attack plans, but so is the ability to adapt to the nature of their attacks. heck, if you are a gorge who wants to quickly move from hive A to hive B then why not go lerk just to travel that distance? should not be that hard to stay alive if you avoid combat. as for adrenaline: it is not as powerful as it used to be in combat. without it, you often have to retreat a bit earlier, yes, but this also reduces your risk of losing your invested pres.
    i'd also like to point out that it is very common to research multiple upgrades for every tech path throughout the game (at least in non-competitive games commanders usually provide both, adrenaline and celerity to satisfy the team's various needes, same goes for carapace and regeneration, silence and feign death). researching hypermutation later on is what i'd personally do, i never asked people to pick it first (and i've never ever seen that happen so i have no idea if it would even make sense). so i'm not saying you should totally skip adrenaline and celerity, i'm just saying it that hypermutation can be a nice addition to make your team a bit more flexible in mid/lategame.
  • SanCoSanCo Join Date: 2012-08-18 Member: 155744Members
    edited October 2012
    I could see this being a "4th" upgrade for all life forms at 3 hive tech. Celerity atm is way to vital for all life forms except maybe Fades. If chosen for fade you can easily upgrade to Onos very fast, which I guess is pretty damn good, however an onos without Celerity... I dunno about, I guess you can die as a skulk / gorge first.
  • Laosh'RaLaosh'Ra Join Date: 2011-12-09 Member: 137232Members
    edited October 2012
    are you sure out-of-combat speed is always so crucial? i remember when carapace slowed people down, few people gave a damn and most commanders chose it as first upgrade anyway. and that was in AND out-of-combat speed. i think most people started to hate it for the in-combat-slow, not for the out-of-combat-slow. celerity is certainly nice to have in order to quickly respond to the enemy, but i think the RIGHT way (adapted) to respond to the enemy is also very important. and a kham could always place some drifteres to make up for the slightly slower team. i usually place them regardless of having celerity or not as they easily make up for their cost by saving harvesters and upgrade structures.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited October 2012
    I think out of combat speed is super important, simply because skulks have no other movement mechanic in place to gain and maintain higher speeds, which means they can not effectively close the gap with marines. Sure you could argue that they should just 'lay in wait' for an ambush, but that isn't always the desirable course of action. (For example when they are setting up a PG somewhere)

    Furthermore, the importance of out of combat speed is only confirmed by leap and celerity usually being chosen above any other tech. Hopefully, if they finally manage to get a skill based movement mechanic like wall jump working properly, there won't be such a big need for celerity and leap at the start of the game. Only with speed and some skill mechanic can you actually make skulks competitive AND fun as a melee class to be honest.

    Also they should really make the skulk model smaller
  • SanCoSanCo Join Date: 2012-08-18 Member: 155744Members
    edited October 2012
    Yes, and Celerity isn't out of combat for Skulk, Lerk or Onos.

    Skulks with celerity are great map controllers (RT ######s) and harder to hit in combat,
    Lerks with celerity and Spores are very hard to kill,
    Onos.... That ###### is almost impossible to kill.

    Aka, Celerity is vital for most harassment forms.

    There are probably situations where Hyper is good, but Celerity works almost everywhere. With that said, the real problem is that Celerity is too vital atm. Not Hyper itself I guess.
  • OutlawDrOutlawDr Join Date: 2009-06-21 Member: 67887Members
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1988092:date=Oct 7 2012, 03:51 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Oct 7 2012, 03:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988092"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also they should really make the skulk model smaller<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    yep the netcode and performance slowly improves each build, which makes the over sized skulk easier to kill. Its a passive nerf each time (since it affects the skulks surviability the most),and decreasing its size could counter at least that part of the skulks problem.
  • FrankerZFrankerZ Join Date: 2012-05-06 Member: 151627Members
    you dont need to sacrifice any upg when using hypermutating

    you can be a lerk with adren and cara wanting to go fade, so you go to skulk with hyper, type kill, go fade with your favorite upgs.
  • KhyronKhyron Join Date: 2012-02-02 Member: 143308Members
    @Laosh'Ra
    I've responded to your last comments first because I think it gives some context to the different ways we're approaching this issue...

    <!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->>i'd also like to point out that it is very common to research multiple upgrades for every tech path throughout the game (at least in non-competitive games commanders usually provide both, adrenaline and celerity to satisfy the team's various needes, same goes for carapace and regeneration, silence and feign death). researching hypermutation later on is what i'd personally do, i never asked people to pick it first (and i've never ever seen that happen so i have no idea if it would even make sense). so i'm not saying you should totally skip adrenaline and celerity, i'm just saying it that hypermutation can be a nice addition to make your team a bit more flexible in mid/lategame.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
    I'm completely fine with that. I think when you first mentioned 'viable' I interpreted it as meaning "an alternative strategic decision which yields comparable results". The strategic decisions are the choices made in the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Build_order" target="_blank">build order</a>. Obviously from what I've said, I think hypermutation isn't a 'viable' strategic choice. Sure, you can unlock it at the end of the game when there's nothing better to spend tRes on. I was hoping for more strategic variety in NS2.

    <!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->>so from what i read the major issue people see with it is it's lack of combat viability. again: have you really tried it properly, as in several matches and multiple times per match?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
    Nope, haven't tried for months. I also haven't tried playing without a mouse. Sometimes it's entirely appropriate to try out new things. Other times we understand enough to extrapolate outcomes. The day I see a viable strategy for getting hypermutation in the early game I will gladly try it out. This thread has helped me critically think through why I have so far not been able to do so.

    <!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->>what it comes down to that you can invest your pres as early as possible instead keeping it idle in your pool. it's like a commander spending his ressources for upgrades instead of waiting until he has enough to research all of them in a row: the earlier you have it on the field, the better (because the enemy marines become deadlier by the minute). since you can stay alive much easier, you can effectively reach state of fade or w/e faster than without hypermutation (if you skip the gorge hydras).<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
    There are some assumptions here I can't agree with and some significant tradeoffs not mentioned.
    <ul><li>Evolving to a more expensive lifeform is not universally better. Lifeforms have unique abilities and roles. Sometimes you can do more as a skulk. Especially if Leap has been researched but BB/spores has not.</li><li>Evolving to an intermediate lifeform exposes your pRes to risk. If your goal is to fade but you evolve to Gorge or Lerk you might die and lose that pRes. In terms of risk analysis, you'd have to weigh up the costs of that intermediate lifeform, say 30 for the Lerk, with the extra resources earned because of the improved survivability. To me, that risk is huge for a tiny payoff.</li><li>Choosing to play cautiously with an intermediate lifeform (in order to mitigate the above risk) influences your effectiveness. Staying alive has obvious benefits, but by that logic you could just hide in a vent somewhere to maximise those benefits. A greater truth is that the team which makes better calculated risks will have a greater chance at success.</li><li>The most important point I see is that your advice might be relevant to an individual but it does not work for an entire team. Obviously an entire team of Gorges or Lerks has some huge drawbacks. So my assumption is that for the first 15 minutes of a round, the aliens will invariably have a lot of skulks and that skulks can't make use of hypermutation. Even the fringe scenario where they can swap between cara and regen takes a long time (150 tRes minimum, >5 mins of unchallenged growth). So because of that, any time hypermutation has been researched, most of the rest of the team will want to capitalise on some other shift upgrade. And because of <i>that</i> an evolution that only benefits one or two players has to be significantly better than an evolution that benefits four or more players. This is why it's advantageous to deprioritise hypermutation. And as I said earlier, pRes doesn't matter too much in the late game (>15 mins) because the Khamm can buy eggs with tRes.</li></ul>

    <!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->>how is being a faster fade instead of a skulk not combat viable? how is being a lerk inbetween (instead of a skulk) not combat viable? how is having carapace instead of regen when you really need it (massive rush) not combat viable?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
    It's not black and white like that at all. There are pros and cons both ways. Ultimately people will usually take the shortest path to success. Hypermutation is by design on the long path. It's like a long term investment. The problem is in a closed loop like NS2, short term investments compound. If you can create a tech/economy difference between your two teams, it becomes easier to grow that difference. Eg: aliens cripple marine economy and get fades before they can get shotguns. It's then much easier to make further progress because of the difference between the tech/economies.

    <!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->>as for celerity (which is not as combat viable since you lose the bonus in combat): <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
    That's not at all true. Aliens use celerity to close to melee range <i>faster</i>. It also allows aliens to evade fire <i>easier</i>. That's what we mean by combat effectiveness. You can think of it as a direct effect on KDR.

    <!--coloro:#808080--><span style="color:#808080"><!--/coloro-->>you also save many seconds from the mutation, even if you switch back and forth all the time (it's really really fast).<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
    Again, you've identified an advantage but not put it in context. Over the course of the game, without hypermutation, you'll spend only a tiny fraction evolving; easily less than 1%. It's frivolous to argue the merits of shaving time off that 1%. And then you're ignoring the fact that by using hypermutation to switch between lifeforms means you spend more total time as an egg.
  • Laosh'RaLaosh'Ra Join Date: 2011-12-09 Member: 137232Members
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure, you can unlock it at the end of the game when there's nothing better to spend tRes on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    this would already be enough for me. at the moment, it is usually not researched at all...
    one thing i'd also like to point out: hypermutation costs only 5 tres to upgrade (15 including the spur), compared to 15 (25 including the spur) for adrenaline or celerity.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also haven't tried playing without a mouse. Sometimes it's entirely appropriate to try out new things. Other times we understand enough to extrapolate outcomes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    hypermutation is probably the most complex of all the traits, because it depends on all life forms and other possible traits. i never bothered to use it because of the very same reasons posted here, but i found it to work fine in practise when i actually gave it a try. ofc it might not work out for everyone, but i'd still like to motivate people to at least give it a chance.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Evolving to a more expensive lifeform is not universally better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    well, this is exactly the point hypermutation addresses, isn't it? chosing whatever fits the situation. e.g. as soon as leap comes up, you can go back to skulk and get your 30 pres back.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In terms of risk analysis, you'd have to weigh up the costs of that intermediate lifeform, say 30 for the Lerk, with the extra resources earned because of the improved survivability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Choosing to play cautiously with an intermediate lifeform (in order to mitigate the above risk) influences your effectiveness<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    i don't think you should perceive it as "intermediate life form" because the lerk is viable even as a final choice. and if you die as a lerk, you lose 30 pres - hypermutation or not. just because you have the option to upgrade yourself if things go well means the risk-to-gain for the lerk itself is different? if you don't like playing lerk e.g. for the reason that you absolutely want to play fade, no matter what, then i guess you are right and hypermutation is not a good choice.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So because of that, any time hypermutation has been researched, most of the rest of the team will want to capitalise on some other shift upgrade. And because of that an evolution that only benefits one or two players has to be significantly better than an evolution that benefits four or more players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    with hypermutation being so very unpopular, i can only agree and i'd personally never research it previously to celerity or adrenaline. but this is ultimately not a valid argument against hypermutation imo as an upgrade itself, as the popularity of an upgrade is usually only a symptom of it's quality. in case of hypermutation, i belive it is because of the non-intuitive mechanics and the fact that it used to be unviable when it was first introduced (e.g. back then, evolution traits were allowed to be switched at any given time).

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hypermutation is by design on the long path. It's like a long term investment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    i get your point here, but having all your life forms earlier on the field (e.g. lerk before fade before onos instead of skulk all the time and then onos) seems like a very fast payoff. if you like playing lerk and chose it either way for early game, then, without hypermutation, you can end up as lerk with 50 pres and even more without being able to invest it except by dying first. with hypermutation you can make your short-term investment at 20 pres.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens use celerity to close to melee range faster. It also allows aliens to evade fire easier.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    yes i know it has some combat benefits, especially if catch your enemy off guard. but it's main purpose, as UWE themselves said, is out-of-combat-movement.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And then you're ignoring the fact that by using hypermutation to switch between lifeforms means you spend more total time as an egg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    i don't have numbers for this right now since it cannot be properly tested in explore mode, my memory is hazy (i will keep you updated when i get this upgrade in multiplayer again, just bear with me for a few years :D), but i think the overall time is lower even if you evolve 10 times as often.
  • HeatSurgeHeatSurge Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    <!--quoteo(post=1988154:date=Oct 7 2012, 09:58 AM:name=FrankerZ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FrankerZ @ Oct 7 2012, 09:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988154"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you dont need to sacrifice any upg when using hypermutating

    you can be a lerk with adren and cara wanting to go fade, so you go to skulk with hyper, type kill, go fade with your favorite upgs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Ahahah, I never thought about going skulk for a refund and then killing myself to reset the upgrades. Ridiculous exploits FTW!
  • KhyronKhyron Join Date: 2012-02-02 Member: 143308Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1988260:date=Oct 8 2012, 09:09 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 8 2012, 09:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988260"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ahahah, I never thought about going skulk for a refund and then killing myself to reset the upgrades. Ridiculous exploits FTW!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I wouldn't really call it an exploit. Metagaming maybe. There's still not much likelyhood of hypermutation being unlocked early. Whatever you call it, I'm pretty sure it was known and discussed when hypermutation was first introduced. The downside is you put yourself through the spawn queue, ruin your KDR stats (lol) and your new lifeform obviously doesn't benefit from hypermutation.

    I find metagaming like that to be a silly thing and I interpret it as a weakness in the design of hypermutation.

    A better design might be to just offer a discount on the lifeform in exchange for no ability in that slot. Would you rather a cheap fade with no celerity? At some price point people would make use of it. "Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it"
  • KiaiKiai Join Date: 2012-01-16 Member: 140856Members
    edited October 2012
    I think hypermutation is definitely a late game upgrade in pubs because teamwork is not as tight as competitive games. It can be useful (and fun) to change your upgrades and lifeforms.

    In comp games, i think hypermutation is more viable early on because of tight teamwork. I hope to see clans opening with hypermutation instead of fast hive. In 6v6 the whole team goes hypermutation, evolve to gorge, drop 3 hydras at hive and evolve back to skulk. Everyone loses only 9 pres (instead of 19) but the hive will have 18 hydras (and possibly a ton of clogs). At the same time, fast cyst to grab 2nd harvester. This 2nd harvester would go up faster than the usual opening of fast hive <i>then</i> harvester. By grabbing the 2nd harvester earlier the team's early pres investment in hydras can be recuperated.

    18 Hydras are more than enough to protect the hive against 0/0 weap/armor marines. This means skulks can focus on taking out resource towers and force beacons. Additionally 1 skulk can always hypermutate into a gorge on the front lines to quickly heal other skulks if needed.

    Hypermutation is extremely cheap at only 15 tres. After capping 2nd harvester Khamm can go for celerity too to compensate for no leap.
  • HeatSurgeHeatSurge Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited October 2012
    I disagree with what was said in the Q&A today.

    Yes, Hypermutation is "cool and useful" on paper - but seriously, they're hoping players will go gorge to heal each other or something and then go something else afterwards? -__-

    In practice, most players run back to a hive if they need healing and it's nearby. It's faster and safer than going gorge and risk getting rushed as you're evolving back into fade/lerk.

    Also, the biggest problem with hypermutation is not that it's not "cool and useful." It's extremely cool and useful. The problem is that you give up celerity or adrenaline - both of which are arguably the most popular alien upgrades right now, except maybe carapace - for a reason.
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Make it refund 50-75% of lifeform PRes cost upon death and it'd be useful enough to be a viable alternative to adrenaline or celerity.
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