fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2012
I wish you hadn't quoted that; I guess I was too slow to edit my original post. I have to test if there actually was diminishing returns in NS1, or if my memory is just fuzzy. The marine spawn machine of doom, or impression of a spawn machine of doom, might be caused by other things entirely.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
A system like <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121694" target="_blank">this</a> would help reduce the effectiveness of the constant marine onslaught.
<!--quoteo(post=1988159:date=Oct 7 2012, 06:23 PM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Oct 7 2012, 06:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988159"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A system like <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121694" target="_blank">this</a> would help reduce the effectiveness of the constant marine onslaught.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whenever someone puts a link to another thread, somehow I always know who the author of that thread is. Weird, I must be psychic or something.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1988172:date=Oct 7 2012, 01:15 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 7 2012, 01:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988172"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whenever someone puts a link to another thread, somehow I always know who the author of that thread is. Weird, I must be psychic or something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be fair, I don't see how powernodes have anything to do with this... I think you're kind of stretching it there. Slow the IP spawn rates and fix alien spawning. (It's horrendous early on in the game)
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1988189:date=Oct 7 2012, 01:48 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Oct 7 2012, 01:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988189"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be fair, I don't see how powernodes have anything to do with this... I think you're kind of stretching it there. Slow the IP spawn rates and fix alien spawning. (It's horrendous early on in the game)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not trying to hijack the thread here, but what I was suggesting was more along the lines of the current Armory system, having it slow down after constant deployment.
The respawn rate should be commensurate with the speed and ease of death. In that respect, the current asymmetry is pretty good. Still, I think probably too much balance is being dictated by spawn rates & mechanics. It could be evened out a bit with corresponding balance changes made elsewhere.
One byproduct of fast marine respawns that I do like is it casually reminds aliens that you don't win by just racking up kills. The aliens have a rough deal at the moment though, it's too easy for marines to shoot all the eggs which creates a lot of incentive to drop a second hive straight away...
<!--quoteo(post=1988140:date=Oct 8 2012, 01:13 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 8 2012, 01:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988140"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Both alien and marine spawn systems are broken; and wavespawn is an especially horrendous feature. For an example of why, look at 50 seconds of this cast in the Wasabi Cup final between archaea and pokemasters (02:10-03:00): <a href="http://youtu.be/Gss3Kdq-R14?t=2m10s" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/Gss3Kdq-R14?t=2m10s</a>
Here, me and eagleye pull off something amazing; we kill five skulks rushing us at the same time with just our machineguns and pistols, outnumbered 2 against 5, while we are right outside their growing second hive. That's not something that happens every day in a tournament final -- even the very best players would be lucky to see it happen once in their "career" (I'll probably never see it happen again). So what's our reward for pulling off this amazing feat? Just enough time to run in and kill one hydra, before they all wavespawn and swarm us again.
The wavespawn/eggspawn system has a terrible duality of not rewarding great actions by the marines, while at the same time instantly ending the game should the marines mange to egglock. Compare it to the old spawn system in NS1, which received a lot of critique for the ease of spawncamping -- at least with that you had a chance to end the spawncamp, since you could still spawn. With the egg system, you won't even get to spawn if the marines have you egglocked.
The marine spawn system, on the other hand, spawns marines like rabbits on crack once you have 2+ IPs. I don't know if the spawn time from an individual marine from one IP is a problem -- it could be -- but the biggest problem is the enormous boost in spawn times from building more IPs. Each IP gives you an immediate +1 spawn, for a very cheap cost. When you combine this with the sprint feature, suddenly marines are almost as mobile as the aliens. An alien that kills a marine on the far side of the map, then runs to heal and then back again, will have to expect that the marine he just killed will be waiting for him, essentially meaning nothing was gained from killing the marine (other than a symbolic +1 on the scoreboard, yay...).
Edited a bit out: Checking some facts to make sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Perfect example of why games (pub especially) are suffering heavily from dry and pointless midgame. There is just way too much spawn pressure from both teams that the actions of individuals have very little impact on the moment. The opportunity to attack more often than not now comes from surprise! cheese in its various forms including egg lock.
Oh, and everytime i see a lone marine trying to do something sneaky in a hive and get instantly mobbed by 7 spawning skulks, i have to trololol.
<!--quoteo(post=1988140:date=Oct 7 2012, 08:13 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 7 2012, 08:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988140"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... An alien that kills a marine on the far side of the map, then runs to heal and then back again, will have to expect that the marine he just killed will be waiting for him, essentially meaning nothing was gained from killing the marine (other than a symbolic +1 on the scoreboard, yay...) ....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is also a problem with the game right now IMO. In a 1v1 situation, if you succeed at killing a marine with a weapon or a jetpack as a skulk, or even a fade, you will be hurting pretty bad in most situations. So you have two choices: - camp his weapon with the already reduced health that you have, and risk dying as a higher life form and losing res, or die in 4-5 shots as a skulk. - run back to the hive or the nearest crag/gorge to heal, in which case when you go back to where the marine was like fana said he will already be waiting with his weapon(shotgun?) picked right back up by himself - or one of his teammates. In a worse case, he may actually be advancing. The net res loss from dying to a fade is 10 res for marines assuming JP and the weapon is picked up, whereas from dying as a fade it's 50 permanent no matter what.
The spawn system also rewards players for NOT engaging the enemy. To me that doesn't make sense. Killing the enemy players is worse in many cases than just waiting for them to run far away from you and then damaging their structures. IMO killing the enemy should always give you more of an advantage.
The spawn times need to vary based on player count. It's impossible to balance a game with the same spawn times for a 6v6 and a 12v12. The spawn times should be slower the more players there are to allow time to capitalize after killing enough of the enemies. Certainly if you are going to use wave spawns then the timer should be longer the more players there are in the team.
^ true. It's a MUCH better idea to wait for equipped marines to leave the area around the phase gate for example, because you have a better chance of separating them from their weapons and then repeatedly killing the ones trying to pick them back up ^.^ . Pretty lame, but that's the byproduct of droppable weapons.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
<!--quoteo(post=1988195:date=Oct 8 2012, 05:14 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Oct 8 2012, 05:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988195"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The respawn rate should be commensurate with the speed and ease of death. In that respect, the current asymmetry is pretty good. Still, I think probably too much balance is being dictated by spawn rates & mechanics. It could be evened out a bit with corresponding balance changes made elsewhere.
One byproduct of fast marine respawns that I do like is it casually reminds aliens that you don't win by just racking up kills. The aliens have a rough deal at the moment though, it's too easy for marines to shoot all the eggs which creates a lot of incentive to drop a second hive straight away...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Also encourages, a bit too much, the shift hive. (as its the only one which can build eggs, i think that should be a hive ability, not a shift one. shift should be primarily echoing eggs to further attack points, not building them. :/)
<!--quoteo(post=1988140:date=Oct 7 2012, 03:13 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 7 2012, 03:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988140"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Both alien and marine spawn systems are broken; and wavespawn is an especially horrendous feature. For an example of why, look at 50 seconds of this cast in the Wasabi Cup final between archaea and pokemasters (02:10-03:00): <a href="http://youtu.be/Gss3Kdq-R14?t=2m10s" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/Gss3Kdq-R14?t=2m10s</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wow, i dont know whats more amazing, the fact you 2 pulled that off or the fact it turned out to be so lack luster lol
Dont forget, marines can also sprint, so why they're beaconing to defend bases or phase gating to push and to top it off the 3 second respawn time, they can still move around the map pretty quickly with sprint....They cover more ground then aliens can.
But i agree with the comment on the first page about it being a temporary fix, we cant just keep bandaiding and expecting it to go away. Marines need work or aliens need to be brought in line with marines.
Comments
Whenever someone puts a link to another thread, somehow I always know who the author of that thread is. Weird, I must be psychic or something.
At least I don't copy paste the thread in here.
Not trying to hijack the thread here, but what I was suggesting was more along the lines of the current Armory system, having it slow down after constant deployment.
One byproduct of fast marine respawns that I do like is it casually reminds aliens that you don't win by just racking up kills. The aliens have a rough deal at the moment though, it's too easy for marines to shoot all the eggs which creates a lot of incentive to drop a second hive straight away...
Here, me and eagleye pull off something amazing; we kill five skulks rushing us at the same time with just our machineguns and pistols, outnumbered 2 against 5, while we are right outside their growing second hive. That's not something that happens every day in a tournament final -- even the very best players would be lucky to see it happen once in their "career" (I'll probably never see it happen again). So what's our reward for pulling off this amazing feat? Just enough time to run in and kill one hydra, before they all wavespawn and swarm us again.
The wavespawn/eggspawn system has a terrible duality of not rewarding great actions by the marines, while at the same time instantly ending the game should the marines mange to egglock. Compare it to the old spawn system in NS1, which received a lot of critique for the ease of spawncamping -- at least with that you had a chance to end the spawncamp, since you could still spawn. With the egg system, you won't even get to spawn if the marines have you egglocked.
The marine spawn system, on the other hand, spawns marines like rabbits on crack once you have 2+ IPs. I don't know if the spawn time from an individual marine from one IP is a problem -- it could be -- but the biggest problem is the enormous boost in spawn times from building more IPs. Each IP gives you an immediate +1 spawn, for a very cheap cost. When you combine this with the sprint feature, suddenly marines are almost as mobile as the aliens. An alien that kills a marine on the far side of the map, then runs to heal and then back again, will have to expect that the marine he just killed will be waiting for him, essentially meaning nothing was gained from killing the marine (other than a symbolic +1 on the scoreboard, yay...).
Edited a bit out: Checking some facts to make sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perfect example of why games (pub especially) are suffering heavily from dry and pointless midgame. There is just way too much spawn pressure from both teams that the actions of individuals have very little impact on the moment. The opportunity to attack more often than not now comes from surprise! cheese in its various forms including egg lock.
Oh, and everytime i see a lone marine trying to do something sneaky in a hive and get instantly mobbed by 7 spawning skulks, i have to trololol.
An alien that kills a marine on the far side of the map, then runs to heal and then back again, will have to expect that the marine he just killed will be waiting for him, essentially meaning nothing was gained from killing the marine (other than a symbolic +1 on the scoreboard, yay...)
....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is also a problem with the game right now IMO. In a 1v1 situation, if you succeed at killing a marine with a weapon or a jetpack as a skulk, or even a fade, you will be hurting pretty bad in most situations. So you have two choices:
- camp his weapon with the already reduced health that you have, and risk dying as a higher life form and losing res, or die in 4-5 shots as a skulk.
- run back to the hive or the nearest crag/gorge to heal, in which case when you go back to where the marine was like fana said he will already be waiting with his weapon(shotgun?) picked right back up by himself - or one of his teammates. In a worse case, he may actually be advancing. The net res loss from dying to a fade is 10 res for marines assuming JP and the weapon is picked up, whereas from dying as a fade it's 50 permanent no matter what.
The spawn times need to vary based on player count. It's impossible to balance a game with the same spawn times for a 6v6 and a 12v12. The spawn times should be slower the more players there are to allow time to capitalize after killing enough of the enemies. Certainly if you are going to use wave spawns then the timer should be longer the more players there are in the team.
One byproduct of fast marine respawns that I do like is it casually reminds aliens that you don't win by just racking up kills. The aliens have a rough deal at the moment though, it's too easy for marines to shoot all the eggs which creates a lot of incentive to drop a second hive straight away...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also encourages, a bit too much, the shift hive. (as its the only one which can build eggs, i think that should be a hive ability, not a shift one. shift should be primarily echoing eggs to further attack points, not building them. :/)
wow, i dont know whats more amazing, the fact you 2 pulled that off or the fact it turned out to be so lack luster lol
But i agree with the comment on the first page about it being a temporary fix, we cant just keep bandaiding and expecting it to go away. Marines need work or aliens need to be brought in line with marines.