Alien Disparity
Lastdon
Join Date: 2012-06-29 Member: 153767Members
Join Date: 2012-06-29 Member: 153767Members
So I am creating this post to point out some areas of game play that I find to be a bit of a problem, which is mainly on the alien side of game play.
- (Movement) Aliens are suppose to be far Superior to marines on this front to help gain map control as well as closing the distance gap on their prey. Vanilla skulks move at the same speed as sprinting marines so they receive no benefit to help with map control in this area.
- (Securing resource nodes) In order for aliens to build their resource nodes they must spend 10 Pres. Or wait a fairly decent amount of time for their nodes to mature, while they are maturing they are far more susceptible to attacks.
-(Cyst's) Aliens have to spend even more res in order to cap resource points. So in all actuality alien resource nodes cost a minimum of 13 resources. In actual game play that real number is around 17 if you have legit marines running around taking out your cyst chains.
- (Moving between hives) This point correlates with my first point that marines move just as fast as aliens. 99% of the time aliens are forced to drop or secure the tech point directly next to their starting tech point in order to defend the dropped hive. Marines on the other hand have phase tech which allows them to secure tech points completely on the opposite side of the map which can completely cut aliens off. Veil is a good example of this if marines take cargo aliens pretty much are done for.
- (Upgrades not persisting through combat) Celerity, regeneration these should give me constant combat efficiency not situational especially since alien upgrades are limited.
-(The Ease of ninjaing alien upgrade chambers) This is Huge B.S that a single marine can sneak into a hive and take out even 2 chamber 60 res in like 10 secs. I don't see aliens walking into marine bases drooping their arms lab or even advanced armory nearly as quickly. Even if the marines base is being hit they have beacon to counter it or mines.
-(Alien Spawn camping) Really is self explanatory. Marines walk into the alien base start killing off your eggs which are giant spawn targets. Then you spend any where from 30 secs to 1 min not in combat. I even had one game when I died at the same time as a majority of my team and one marine worked his way into our hive and I literally spent 2 mins in queue and then spawned stuck had to kill myself off then spawned into another marine invasion that killed me upon respawning. I spent a total of 3 mins just staring at my monitor. That is great game play. Marines can not be spawned camped due to the knock back from their IP's. Same goes for phase gates.
-(Ninja Gaden Marine)- Have to love a marine who does a somersault over your head after you finally managed to get into melee range and is a full leap away from you.
-(Hyper mutation, Cloaking) Completely useless upgrades never ever researched in a legitimate game. Yes marines have turrets but that is the only useless marine function.
-(The only way to win as aliens POWER NODE RUSH!!!!) Seriously, when is the last time you won an alien match that wasn't won by power node rush. I never hear anyone say hey aim for advance armory or protolab, which really needs to be addressed so there're possibly other ways to set marines back besides power node rushing.
These are just a few of the disparities i noticed if you have encountered some I haven't brought up feel free to mention them.
<!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->*snip*
Must you ask for trouble?
- Mouse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
- (Movement) Aliens are suppose to be far Superior to marines on this front to help gain map control as well as closing the distance gap on their prey. Vanilla skulks move at the same speed as sprinting marines so they receive no benefit to help with map control in this area.
- (Securing resource nodes) In order for aliens to build their resource nodes they must spend 10 Pres. Or wait a fairly decent amount of time for their nodes to mature, while they are maturing they are far more susceptible to attacks.
-(Cyst's) Aliens have to spend even more res in order to cap resource points. So in all actuality alien resource nodes cost a minimum of 13 resources. In actual game play that real number is around 17 if you have legit marines running around taking out your cyst chains.
- (Moving between hives) This point correlates with my first point that marines move just as fast as aliens. 99% of the time aliens are forced to drop or secure the tech point directly next to their starting tech point in order to defend the dropped hive. Marines on the other hand have phase tech which allows them to secure tech points completely on the opposite side of the map which can completely cut aliens off. Veil is a good example of this if marines take cargo aliens pretty much are done for.
- (Upgrades not persisting through combat) Celerity, regeneration these should give me constant combat efficiency not situational especially since alien upgrades are limited.
-(The Ease of ninjaing alien upgrade chambers) This is Huge B.S that a single marine can sneak into a hive and take out even 2 chamber 60 res in like 10 secs. I don't see aliens walking into marine bases drooping their arms lab or even advanced armory nearly as quickly. Even if the marines base is being hit they have beacon to counter it or mines.
-(Alien Spawn camping) Really is self explanatory. Marines walk into the alien base start killing off your eggs which are giant spawn targets. Then you spend any where from 30 secs to 1 min not in combat. I even had one game when I died at the same time as a majority of my team and one marine worked his way into our hive and I literally spent 2 mins in queue and then spawned stuck had to kill myself off then spawned into another marine invasion that killed me upon respawning. I spent a total of 3 mins just staring at my monitor. That is great game play. Marines can not be spawned camped due to the knock back from their IP's. Same goes for phase gates.
-(Ninja Gaden Marine)- Have to love a marine who does a somersault over your head after you finally managed to get into melee range and is a full leap away from you.
-(Hyper mutation, Cloaking) Completely useless upgrades never ever researched in a legitimate game. Yes marines have turrets but that is the only useless marine function.
-(The only way to win as aliens POWER NODE RUSH!!!!) Seriously, when is the last time you won an alien match that wasn't won by power node rush. I never hear anyone say hey aim for advance armory or protolab, which really needs to be addressed so there're possibly other ways to set marines back besides power node rushing.
These are just a few of the disparities i noticed if you have encountered some I haven't brought up feel free to mention them.
<!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->*snip*
Must you ask for trouble?
- Mouse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Comments
Must you ask for trouble?
- Mouse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ouch!
Must you ask for trouble?
- Mouse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->The NS forums are not an image-board. Use your words. -Talesin<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<snip>
-(The only way to win as aliens POWER NODE RUSH!!!!) Seriously, when is the last time you won an alien match that wasn't won by power node rush. I never hear anyone say hey aim for advance armory or protolab, which really needs to be addressed so there're possibly other ways to set marines back besides power node rushing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Many of the points I snipped out amount to "I dislike asymmetry". Oh well. Some of the problems you addressed are real problems though and a part of those will get fixed within next few patches. Not going to comment on those right now. I don't really see much use in this list anyway. "I see asymmetries in the game, so I will list it out!"... Oh well, maybe we will get good conversation out of it, though I think this thread will just re-iterate some of the more popular topics on the forum.
About the power node: Many of the games are ended by either taking out a power node or taking out a CC. That doesn't mean that these games have been won with that. Games are often won with map control, resource advantage and exploiting opponents weaknesses. That the ending strike happens to target a power node or CC doesn't mean that was the real game winner. Then again, removing power nodes from the game is a popular suggestion and there is a lot of merit in it.
<!--quoteo(post=1991588:date=Oct 15 2012, 11:05 AM:name=Lastdon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lastdon @ Oct 15 2012, 11:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991588"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->*snip*
Must you ask for trouble?
- Mouse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice flame-bait... Oh well, since I'm not using any mods I'll bite: LRN2PLAY! ;)
These so called "pros" won't last a second without there 3rd party mods. The 1st tournament prove they can't live without them. I agree, they should limit the mods that give you a huge advantage in the game. Or not have them at all. I love to hear someone who thinks they are pro at this game and yet they depend on 3rd party mobs.
This is my biggest fear. I sincerely hope they don't lose this and turn aliens into quick melee marines.
There was no reason to remove what he said. It is true that many come here thinking they are pro but they use mods to there advantage. I also agreed with his other points.
<!--quoteo(post=1991599:date=Oct 15 2012, 11:51 AM:name=Mango)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mango @ Oct 15 2012, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991599"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There was no reason to remove what he said. It is true that many come here thinking they are pro but they use mods to there advantage. I also agreed with his other points.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More flame-bait? You come here with vague accusations that many or most competitive players use some unknown mods to give them an unfair advantage. Could you please be more specific? You and OP have already derailed the main point of this thread, so lets make use of it. Back up your trolling with arguments please.
I just agree with the OP. I didn't want to write a whole page like he did. And, what is flame bait? is that a new online word?
- (Movement) Aliens are suppose to be far Superior to marines on this front to help gain map control as well as closing the distance gap on their prey. Vanilla skulks move at the same speed as sprinting marines so they receive no benefit to help with map control in this area.
- (Securing resource nodes) In order for aliens to build their resource nodes they must spend 10 Pres. Or wait a fairly decent amount of time for their nodes to mature, while they are maturing they are far more susceptible to attacks.
-(Cyst's) Aliens have to spend even more res in order to cap resource points. So in all actuality alien resource nodes cost a minimum of 13 resources. In actual game play that real number is around 17 if you have legit marines running around taking out your cyst chains.
- (Moving between hives) This point correlates with my first point that marines move just as fast as aliens. 99% of the time aliens are forced to drop or secure the tech point directly next to their starting tech point in order to defend the dropped hive. Marines on the other hand have phase tech which allows them to secure tech points completely on the opposite side of the map which can completely cut aliens off. Veil is a good example of this if marines take cargo aliens pretty much are done for.
- (Upgrades not persisting through combat) Celerity, regeneration these should give me constant combat efficiency not situational especially since alien upgrades are limited.
-(The Ease of ninjaing alien upgrade chambers) This is Huge B.S that a single marine can sneak into a hive and take out even 2 chamber 60 res in like 10 secs. I don't see aliens walking into marine bases drooping their arms lab or even advanced armory nearly as quickly. Even if the marines base is being hit they have beacon to counter it or mines.
-(Alien Spawn camping) Really is self explanatory. Marines walk into the alien base start killing off your eggs which are giant spawn targets. Then you spend any where from 30 secs to 1 min not in combat. I even had one game when I died at the same time as a majority of my team and one marine worked his way into our hive and I literally spent 2 mins in queue and then spawned stuck had to kill myself off then spawned into another marine invasion that killed me upon respawning. I spent a total of 3 mins just staring at my monitor. That is great game play. Marines can not be spawned camped due to the knock back from their IP's. Same goes for phase gates.
-(Ninja Gaden Marine)- Have to love a marine who does a somersault over your head after you finally managed to get into melee range and is a full leap away from you.
-(Hyper mutation, Cloaking) Completely useless upgrades never ever researched in a legitimate game. Yes marines have turrets but that is the only useless marine function.
-(The only way to win as aliens POWER NODE RUSH!!!!) Seriously, when is the last time you won an alien match that wasn't won by power node rush. I never hear anyone say hey aim for advance armory or protolab, which really needs to be addressed so there're possibly other ways to set marines back besides power node rushing.
These are just a few of the disparities i noticed if you have encountered some I haven't brought up feel free to mention them.
<!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->*snip*
Must you ask for trouble?
- Mouse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also, eggs should have enough HP that marine will just ignore. Many times I notice marines would focus on eggs and have our rez timer reset since it only takes 1 clip to finish a egg. Making eggs have a lot of HP will prevent them from egg killing and causing any chances to clear them out of the hive
I disagree - there are fundamental problems with the alien game that you can't just dismiss under the guise of "asymmetry".
Movement is the key issue, particularly with the bigger maps like mineshaft and veil. Aliens just can't get across the map fast enough to save RTs, upgrades or hive eggs, which is why the most effective marine tactics are to target these.
What is the defence against ninja marines killing the upgrades? Upgrades are weak, obvious and there's few hiding places for them. Burying them in clogs just draws attention to them and covering them effectively with hyras is nigh-on impossible, and means the gorge cant use his clogs & hydras for what they should be used for - blocking marine movement.
You also see the movement issue in the bigger maps with hive drops. ns_veil is a prime exmaple. Cargo hive is a liability for aliens. If the marines get it, defending a second hive drop at sub or pipe is a nightmare, 'cos you have to traverse the whole areas of the map to get there. Even if aliens secure Cargo, it's an open target for jetpackers.
It also makes the games predictable. On docking, if the aliens spawn in locker, next hive is pretty much always generator. Tram is too far away to defend,and cafeteria too close to marine spawn.
The NS1 hive teleport was a great feature for aliens. Teleporting to a fully built hive or one taking damage was a counter to hive rushes but didn't stop them from being successful.
Rather old, actually. Here is some <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaming_%28Internet%29" target="_blank">wikipedia</a> on it.
Hypermutation is still up for debate in my opinion. I've had a reasonable amount of success pulling suicide bile bomb rushes, and then skulking before I die and leaping away, only to come back as gorge or onos. Feign death makes this incredibly viable due to feign death kicking in on the egg. Marines often wont check if an egg has feigned death.
Cloaking, however, is f%cking sh!t. Needs to be 100% cloak at all times while you're in shade, and 100% cloak with the cloaking upgrade as long as you're walking and not running. Shades should also be able to be built off infestation (or at least remove infestation footsteps in cloaked areas - you shouldn't immediately be able to tell you're in a shade area if you can hear yourself stepping in infestation you cant see). I can understand that without motion tracking, 100% cloaking is an issue. But perhaps we just need to encourage building observatories. Or have powernoded rooms disable cloak (this would also give extra incentive for aliens to destroy the powernode in non-techpoint locations).
<!--quoteo(post=1991588:date=Oct 15 2012, 03:05 AM:name=Lastdon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lastdon @ Oct 15 2012, 03:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991588"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-(The only way to win as aliens POWER NODE RUSH!!!!) Seriously, when is the last time you won an alien match that wasn't won by power node rush. I never hear anyone say hey aim for advance armory or protolab, which really needs to be addressed so there're possibly other ways to set marines back besides power node rushing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see why this is a problem. In ns1 it was "go for the obs, then go for the ip" or for a forward base "go for the phase gate". It's exactly the same - go for the structure that will keep marines from appearing (be it by spawning, or phasing in, or beaconing). For ns2 it's the same, it's "go for the power node". Unless there's no obs/cc (in which case, go for the phase gate or ips), or it's their last tech point (go for the cc - it's my understanding they have less health than powernode - correct me if i'm wrong). It creates exactly the same effect as removing the ips/phase/obs in ns1 - stops marines from coming back and lets you take that location and kill the structures inside as a result. Power nodes don't have to be taken down in a rush, it's just the most effective way. And what's wrong with that? Having the entire team work together, and being rewarded for it?
Although you're right about advanced armories - it was still a legit ns1 tactic to take out their advanced armory to set them back a lot. Perhaps the hp needs to be nerfed to encourage this. I'd also like to see you have to reevolve upgrades if you lose the arms lab. Would be a nightmare if you lose your main base, but that's a penalty you have to pay. Aliens have to pay the same penalty if they put their upgrades in a tech point that ends up going down. Why shouldn't marines?
-(Upgrade resource Spending) Aliens: 15 craig hive, 60 for upgrades, 40 second hive, 15 shift, 90 upgrades, 40 hive, 15 shade, 80 upgrades, 25 leap, 20 spores, 20 bile bomb, 30 blink, 30 stomp, 40 umbra, 40 vortex, 30 xeno. total - 590
Marines: Obs- 15 phase tech 15, armory 10, shotgun 20, mines 15, welders 10, advance armory 20, gl 20, flame thrower 25, arms lab 20, 150 all upgrades level 3, proto 40, jetpacks 25, exo 30, dual exo 35. 2nd comm chair 15. total- 465
I might be off slightly I did not feel like logging into the game to verify the costs.
Alien upgrades shouldn't be as easy to snipe though. Either that or make it a serious setback to lose your arms lab as the marines. I'm talking needing to reresearch an upgrade.