Carapace is not good

2

Comments

  • DeadzoneDeadzone Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17911Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    lol "cara is worthless" Well, keep in mind it only gives 20 armor on a Skulk. 50 armor on my fade seems to do wonders, but maybe I'm just imagining things? :P
  • HeatSurgeHeatSurge Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    It doesn't do wonders, but I definitely prefer cara over regen on fades. It seems to give you that extra shotgun shot that you need to survive sometimes. Regen might be useful if you're one of those fades that likes to be "behind enemy lines" i.e. on the other side of a marine base (not the side with the hive on)... but in my experience those get JPShotted pretty easily.
  • Vladimir Van VodkaVladimir Van Vodka Sexy Beast Join Date: 2010-07-30 Member: 73364Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited October 2012
    I think this guy has a pretty good concept going on, Hive maturity, I don't agree with everything he suggests, mainly the stuff about there being not enough gorges, I see plenty, and his take on lifeform costs etc:

    <a href="http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121984" target="_blank">Hive Maturity Mechanic?</a> by yehawmcgraw

    But you have to admit, the idea of hives growing more mature and stronger over time like the rest of the structures is pretty awesome, maybe something of the like could give aliens a form of scaling? extra armor or damage % as time passes? extra hydras and clogs per gorge?
    I like the idea of aliens evolving and adapting as time passes, he kinda says himself.


    <!--quoteo(post=1993023:date=Oct 18 2012, 03:05 AM:name=yehawmcgraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yehawmcgraw @ Oct 18 2012, 03:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993023"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, it would provide a natural reason for marines NOT to late-game turtle. Or at least go out and kill hives that are at risk of being too mature. This addresses #2 and 6.

    Finally, I believe it it fits in with the flavor of NS. More asymmetric gameplay. An alien threat growing and evolving stronger by the minute. That kind of thing."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->I just realised I'm turning this into a suggestion, sorry about that.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I think cara is pretty much perfect right now. It gives a modest, but noticeable, survivability for all lifeforms, such that I usually go cara over regen in most cases.
  • middlemanmiddleman Join Date: 2005-07-18 Member: 56200Members
    edited October 2012
    I would love to see compound evolutions skills again, that was really enjoyable.

    Example would be, using cara and regen together. Most excellent : )

    Also enjoyedd being able to change evolution traits after one is choosen.

    Not sure why this was changed, it made the game fun.
  • middlemanmiddleman Join Date: 2005-07-18 Member: 56200Members
    edited October 2012
    Also, there are times when i wish skulks had more health.

    like 115base hp. Actually since NS1 i always thought aliens required more health, especially after marines are all leveled up late game, and all your hives are gone. No chance to claw your way back, enless you take there base out.

    One idea would be for each hive, +15hp, 70 stock, 85 2nd, 100 3rd, 115 4th.

    If you get to a point where you had all 4hives but down to 1, keep hp at 115 due to "evolved status"

    Also, gorge should have no limit on towers if they cost money, because putting 3 up is useless, they die fast and dont protect anything.


    oh goodness : >
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1993078:date=Oct 18 2012, 12:52 PM:name=middleman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (middleman @ Oct 18 2012, 12:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would love to see compound evolutions skills again, that was really enjoyable.

    Example would be, using cara and regen together. Most excellent : )<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That'd be quite interesting. Particularly if the number of upgrades you could have at one time was still linked to the number of active hives.
  • BensonBenson Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1993083:date=Oct 17 2012, 08:17 PM:name=Mouse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mouse @ Oct 17 2012, 08:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993083"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That'd be quite interesting. Particularly if the number of upgrades you could have at one time was still linked to the number of active hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Thats how it used to be, and there were much less people saying aliens were underpowered.


    Afterall, if you wanted stealth you COULD have camo and silence

    If you wanted Endurance, Cara + Regen + Adren

    many more choices make aliens not only more fun, but alows the "unscalabe" upgrades to be used in any combonation for a much greater effect, making aliens more viable as a whole

    P.S. if people didnt have to give up cele or adren anymore, we would see A LOT more use out of hypermutation
  • HeatSurgeHeatSurge Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Sounds like an interesting idea, but it might make aliens OP. Cara+regen onos and fades for example...
  • GirTurkeyGirTurkey Join Date: 2005-03-03 Member: 43040Members
    CRAG:
    cara
    regen
    feign death

    Shift:
    adren
    celerity
    silence

    Shade:
    camo
    silence
    focus

    /gg
    /thread
    /silly devs.
  • flyjumflyjum Join Date: 2012-01-07 Member: 139849Members
    I think silence is the best
    Hardest to deal when playing marines IMO I use sound pretty much only to locate aliens.
    Silence also helps a ton when you are playing vs marines
  • AurOn2AurOn2 COOKIES&#33; FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS&#33; Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
    <!--quoteo(post=1993115:date=Oct 18 2012, 04:36 PM:name=GirTurkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GirTurkey @ Oct 18 2012, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993115"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shift:
    adren
    celerity
    silence

    Shade:
    camo
    silence
    focus

    /gg
    /thread
    /silly devs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    How that even makes sense to you is beyond me.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    I would like to add that I don't think anyone is saying cara is bad on anything but the skulk. It is only a problem with the skulk. I do not think bringing back compound evolutions is a good idea. Is fun but way way op.
  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited October 2012
    I think the skulk upgrades should be a tech-tree for them-selfs.

    This would solve the problem of early 2nd hive to get leap.
    It would take leap out of the ability-tech-tree where the other abilities can't compete with upgrades for the default alien.
    It would allow additional upgrades for only the skulk to make him scale into late-game.

    There would be an own upgrade building for the skulks with a long building time. Leap would be delayed by this so it doesn't appear in the early game. You could also add new upgrades into that building like more damage or more health (only) for skulks to scale with the marine upgrades.

    This also would introduce a lot more strategical options for the commander. (Should I go for skulk upgrades first? Or a second hive for more eggs, more upgrades and higher life form abilities?)

    Sadly this would be very equal to the arms lab and not asymmetrical. But I think it would greatly improve alien strategy options and increase the options for solving balance / scalability-problems.
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    The whip attack and armor upgrade you mean, like we had a year ago ?

    It wasn't so bad, although everybody was rushing attack level one because it reduced the number of bites by one.
  • unkindunkind Join Date: 2012-02-04 Member: 143563Members
    how are compound evolutions OP? A guy flying around with a jetpack shotgun with a3 and w3 for 30 res is OP.

    OH NO the skulk with 20 armor and 13 hp every 3 seconds or whatever it is lol. He sure is screwed now.

    What's that? The skulk is free w/the upgrades? Grab a lerk, grab 2 similar upgrades, and the marine still rapes him on equal res, and i mean ###### 1-2 shot easily.. That same marine can still rape even a fade, though his chances are reduced to around 30-40% if his comm isn't paying attention.

    Compound evolutions were FUN. I loved using cara and regen.

    But seriously the lower alien lifeforms just suck ass and it makes carapace seem even worse.
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    I also fail to comprehend how cara+regen could be problematic and cara+celerity be fine at the same time. The only combination that could be problematic could be silence+cloak (if cloak was done properly).
  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    edited October 2012
    Its overpowered because skulks aren't the only lifeforms. Carapace + Regen Onos, by itself, is overpowered enough to swing it in aliens favor.

    Also, <b>individual upgrades like carapace should not scale</b>. Does level 1 armor scale as the game progresses? No, it doesn't matter where the marines are in the tech tree, level 1 armors contribution is always the same, its level 2 and 3 armor that increases it, additional upgrades. Similarly, carapace must remain the same throughout the game, the addition of celerity and silence should further the skulks survivability.

    The current problem is not the lack of scaling, because skulks scale just fine. A minute or two in, they get their first upgrade. A few minutes after that they get leap. 4 or so minutes after that they get their second upgrade. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that sounds like pretty good scaling to me. The problem is the relative scaling of marines. Their upgrades require no additional tech points, which causes the second hive to be a complete necessity, and works to eventually imbalance the game as 2v2 techpoint games prevail, with the marines teching fully. They also upgrade far too quickly. Resource flow is far too high on the marine team, and the cost of armour and weapon upgrades are relatively far too low. Weapons and armor 3 was like a super weapon in NS1, now its expected by the 9th minute.

    Solution:
    Tie weapon and armor upgrades to tech points. Want three upgrade chambers? Get three hives. Want level 3 weapons? Get three command stations.
    Move some of the power in weapon upgrades into armour. Attempt (if its possible) to increase the number of skulk bites required to kill a marine per armour level slower than the number of fade swipes. In other words, keep the necessity of upgrades for late game lifeforms constant, but reduce their power against skulks slightly.
  • VeNeMVeNeM Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 928Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1993184:date=Oct 18 2012, 06:00 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 18 2012, 06:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993184"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Solution:
    Tie weapon and armor upgrades to tech points. Want three upgrade chambers? Get three hives. Want level 3 weapons? Get three command stations.
    Move some of the power in weapon upgrades into armour. Attempt (if its possible) to increase the number of skulk bites required to kill a marine per armour level slower than the number of fade swipes. In other words, keep the necessity of upgrades for late game lifeforms constant, but reduce their power against skulks slightly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    no


    the solution is not to look at skulk vs marine gameplay because late game youre not supposed to be attacking with just skulks. mid/later game with fades/lerks etc marines cant hold 3 bases and level 2 armor = steamrolled marines. so yea "fix" one thing and break another. must be a dev
  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1993205:date=Oct 18 2012, 02:37 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Oct 18 2012, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993205"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no


    the solution is not to look at skulk vs marine gameplay because late game youre not supposed to be attacking with just skulks. mid/later game with fades/lerks etc marines cant hold 3 bases and level 2 armor = steamrolled marines. so yea "fix" one thing and break another. must be a dev<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Well what is the consensus here? I thought it was that aliens in general do not scale well and marines are overpowering them, skulks and onos alike. If the only perceived issue is that skulks are not scaling, then yes, as you say, you're not meant to be primarily attacking with skulks mid to late game, and there is no problem.

    It is my opinion that level 3 weapon and armour upgrades are too powerful, against any lifeform, and should not be so easily obtained.
  • middlemanmiddleman Join Date: 2005-07-18 Member: 56200Members
    "Its overpowered because skulks aren't the only lifeforms. Carapace + Regen Onos, by itself, is overpowered enough to swing it in aliens favor."

    Yeah and a marine with dual chain machine guns is not over powered? are you kidding me?
  • middlemanmiddleman Join Date: 2005-07-18 Member: 56200Members
    Thing is, higher evolution life forms are rare. Skulk is the predominant class. And in my opinion is the most fun to play, however it is also the weakest. So you gotta play sneaky. And you need speed.

    Second, I always felt that fades were too expensive in the fact that they can die pretty fast. If they had acid rocket it would level things out. But in NS1 you had to wait till you had 3 hives and was a uphill battle to get there. Any if you had 3 hives, you were basically gonna win and didn't really need that acid rocket unless you were facing a heavy train.

    Thats why compound evolutions isnt bad for the fade. Because Cara would negate the loss of life, and you could run back to heal. Because dying 2mins after spending 50res is not fun. Look at the Exo suits, they can get repaired by Macs, which is almost a form of regen, plus they get armor / weapon upgrades, which is a compound bonus.
  • VeNeMVeNeM Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 928Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1993218:date=Oct 18 2012, 08:27 AM:name=middleman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (middleman @ Oct 18 2012, 08:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993218"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thing is, higher evolution life forms are rare. Skulk is the predominant class. And in my opinion is the most fun to play, however it is also the weakest. So you gotta play sneaky. And you need speed.

    Second, I always felt that fades were too expensive in the fact that they can die pretty fast. If they had acid rocket it would level things out. But in NS1 you had to wait till you had 3 hives and was a uphill battle to get there. Any if you had 3 hives, you were basically gonna win and didn't really need that acid rocket unless you were facing a heavy train.

    Thats why compound evolutions isnt bad for the fade. Because Cara would negate the loss of life, and you could run back to heal. Because dying 2mins after spending 50res is not fun. Look at the Exo suits, they can get repaired by Macs, which is almost a form of regen, plus they get armor / weapon upgrades, which is a compound bonus.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    then like you said, the issue isnt marine armor/tech points , its that higher level alien abilities were yanked out of the game creating the disparity (which is what ive been saying for awhile).

    things like acid rocket and range spore would GREATLY help alien teams.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1993218:date=Oct 18 2012, 06:27 AM:name=middleman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (middleman @ Oct 18 2012, 06:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993218"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thing is, higher evolution life forms are rare. Skulk is the predominant class. And in my opinion is the most fun to play, however it is also the weakest. So you gotta play sneaky. And you need speed.

    Second, I always felt that fades were too expensive in the fact that they can die pretty fast. If they had acid rocket it would level things out. But in NS1 you had to wait till you had 3 hives and was a uphill battle to get there. Any if you had 3 hives, you were basically gonna win and didn't really need that acid rocket unless you were facing a heavy train.

    Thats why compound evolutions isnt bad for the fade. Because Cara would negate the loss of life, and you could run back to heal. Because dying 2mins after spending 50res is not fun. Look at the Exo suits, they can get repaired by Macs, which is almost a form of regen, plus they get armor / weapon upgrades, which is a compound bonus.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    Towards to first statement. Thank you. That is why the problem is skulks don't scale. You can't always play sneaky waiting for the marine to move away from the harvester or something.

    Fades in my experience don't die very easily but maybe thats because I run away pretty fast.
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=1993085:date=Oct 18 2012, 05:29 AM:name=Benson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Benson @ Oct 18 2012, 05:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993085"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->P.S. if people didnt have to give up cele or adren anymore, we would see A LOT more use out of hypermutation<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Hypermutation is very OP for onos, to say the least.
    All you need to do to get full health is to evolve into skulk, evolve back.
    Takes only a few seconds, and you're back with full health. Instead of waiting around/retreating for healing of any sort.
    You need you keep your HP% when you change lifeforms with hypermutation.
    It feels like an exploit/bug.
    The original purpose of letting, for example, a fade with 25PRes go onos with hypermutation is more than enough benefit.
  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    <!--quoteo(post=1993278:date=Oct 18 2012, 09:20 AM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Oct 18 2012, 09:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993278"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hypermutation is very OP for onos, to say the least.
    All you need to do to get full health is to evolve into skulk, evolve back.
    Takes only a few seconds, and you're back with full health. Instead of waiting around/retreating for healing of any sort.
    You need you keep your HP% when you change lifeforms with hypermutation.
    It feels like an exploit/bug.
    The original purpose of letting, for example, a fade with 25PRes go onos with hypermutation is more than enough benefit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    It is a bug that has been <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121963" target="_blank">fixed</a> supposedly.
  • mR.WafflesmR.Waffles Join Date: 2009-02-03 Member: 66280Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1993059:date=Oct 17 2012, 09:24 PM:name=Vladimir Van Vodka)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vladimir Van Vodka @ Oct 17 2012, 09:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993059"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think this guy has a pretty good concept going on, Hive maturity, I don't agree with everything he suggests, mainly the stuff about there being not enough gorges, I see plenty, and his take on lifeform costs etc:

    <a href="http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121984" target="_blank">Hive Maturity Mechanic?</a> by yehawmcgraw

    But you have to admit, the idea of hives growing more mature and stronger over time like the rest of the structures is pretty awesome, maybe something of the like could give aliens a form of scaling? extra armor or damage % as time passes? extra hydras and clogs per gorge?
    I like the idea of aliens evolving and adapting as time passes, he kinda says himself.




    <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->I just realised I'm turning this into a suggestion, sorry about that.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Thanks for linking to this. I think this suggestion will go really far towards helping out carapace as well as the other abilities.
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1993174:date=Oct 18 2012, 03:16 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Oct 18 2012, 03:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993174"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only combination that could be problematic could be silence+cloak (if cloak was done properly).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Silence + cloak + celerity 0_o
  • Vladimir Van VodkaVladimir Van Vodka Sexy Beast Join Date: 2010-07-30 Member: 73364Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1993367:date=Oct 18 2012, 10:18 PM:name=mR.Waffles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mR.Waffles @ Oct 18 2012, 10:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993367"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks for linking to this. I think this suggestion will go really far towards helping out carapace as well as the other abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Not sure if sarcastic?

    I was implying there could be a form of scaling based on structure maturity, instead of direct buyable upgrades, and I linked to his Thread because I don't take credit for what I don't think of myself.
  • ChickenOfWarChickenOfWar Join Date: 2003-04-09 Member: 15352Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1993402:date=Oct 18 2012, 03:57 PM:name=Vladimir Van Vodka)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vladimir Van Vodka @ Oct 18 2012, 03:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993402"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not sure if sarcastic?

    I was implying there could be a form of scaling based on structure maturity, instead of direct buyable upgrades, and I linked to his Thread because I don't take credit for what I don't think of myself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I had a similar idea revolving around alien balance revolving around land owned. IE more mature RTs/rooms full of infestation the stronger the aliens are. Would be good for breaking stalemates.
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