Serious Balance Request for Upgrades
radforChrist
USA Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6871Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Subnautica Playtester
USA Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6871Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Subnautica Playtester
<div class="IPBDescription">Aliens and Marine mid to late game</div>Just finished an epic battle on summit playing alien. We were fighting back and forth, until marines trained an ARC convoy into Flight and decimated it.
Great tactic diverting us in Crossroads and DC. However, We had two onos, and went form three to one hive. We survived, and honestly had the chance to come back.
Except!
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro--><b>We lost all upgrade chambers.</b>
<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Marines have one structure. If this structure is lost or power removed from it, the upgrades are lost. To restore, one structure has to bee rebuilt, or power has to be restored.
Aliens have an upgrade structure for EACH upgrade, which is a double cost. One for the structure, again for the upgrade. If a SINGLE upgrade is lost, you must pay the FULL amount again.
This is extremely unfair, especially given the weakness of the structure, the fact that there is no hotkeying or audible communication if it is under attack, and no way for the commander to know without manually searching the map what's missing/not upgraded/needed.
UWE, please before release help find some compensation for this. Marines are already more fun, easier, and have excellent comeback potential.
Aliens are poor attackers, weak, and have little chance if set back to one hive.
A marine invests 160 res into one structure for all upgrades, and it's tough. Replacement is only 20, and all upgrades are restored.
Aliens spend 190 currently (with more to comeI'm sure), on 8 structures that are weak, and if lost, require full cost to restore.
I know you know aliens are not fun, people are stacking marines in most games, and simple "rush the harvesters and upgrades constantly" almost guarantees a win, especially considering on anything more than 16 players a shift is required to spawn. Not decrease spawn time. Spawn period.
<!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Would it be terrible to either:
</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro--><b>A: Go back to three chambers unlocks all upgrades.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> This allows you to use chambers, maybe increase all chamber costs to 15 each. That's 45 per chamber type, 135 total, close to arms lab, and considering you have to replace lost ones at full cost, more expensive still than marines in the long run. Aliens get all tech for a structure, but the amount of structures affect the severity of change.
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro--><b>B: Allow the chambers themselves to be upgraded.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> You're at least getting the passive ablity from the structure (Crag, Shade, Shift), and it's more than a sitting target. You also require three of them, so individual upgrades cost, and it makes choice more important to strategy.
And please, for the love all things spaghetti monster, let aliens use vents again for chambers and stuff....
Great tactic diverting us in Crossroads and DC. However, We had two onos, and went form three to one hive. We survived, and honestly had the chance to come back.
Except!
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro--><b>We lost all upgrade chambers.</b>
<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Marines have one structure. If this structure is lost or power removed from it, the upgrades are lost. To restore, one structure has to bee rebuilt, or power has to be restored.
Aliens have an upgrade structure for EACH upgrade, which is a double cost. One for the structure, again for the upgrade. If a SINGLE upgrade is lost, you must pay the FULL amount again.
This is extremely unfair, especially given the weakness of the structure, the fact that there is no hotkeying or audible communication if it is under attack, and no way for the commander to know without manually searching the map what's missing/not upgraded/needed.
UWE, please before release help find some compensation for this. Marines are already more fun, easier, and have excellent comeback potential.
Aliens are poor attackers, weak, and have little chance if set back to one hive.
A marine invests 160 res into one structure for all upgrades, and it's tough. Replacement is only 20, and all upgrades are restored.
Aliens spend 190 currently (with more to comeI'm sure), on 8 structures that are weak, and if lost, require full cost to restore.
I know you know aliens are not fun, people are stacking marines in most games, and simple "rush the harvesters and upgrades constantly" almost guarantees a win, especially considering on anything more than 16 players a shift is required to spawn. Not decrease spawn time. Spawn period.
<!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Would it be terrible to either:
</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro--><b>A: Go back to three chambers unlocks all upgrades.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> This allows you to use chambers, maybe increase all chamber costs to 15 each. That's 45 per chamber type, 135 total, close to arms lab, and considering you have to replace lost ones at full cost, more expensive still than marines in the long run. Aliens get all tech for a structure, but the amount of structures affect the severity of change.
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro--><b>B: Allow the chambers themselves to be upgraded.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> You're at least getting the passive ablity from the structure (Crag, Shade, Shift), and it's more than a sitting target. You also require three of them, so individual upgrades cost, and it makes choice more important to strategy.
And please, for the love all things spaghetti monster, let aliens use vents again for chambers and stuff....
Comments
uwe wants aliens to have some drawbacks to spreading out on the map
because of that they want 25+ of res to be lost in 2 lmg clips. its game working as intended.
do not expect UWE to ever want to buff alien upgrades or make it easier for aliens to be stronger. its op.
<i>"Marines have this thing but aliens don't have the exect same thing only slightly changed...."</i>
/sigh....
I think that might be OK if marine upgrades were just as vulnerable, but as it happens their upgrades are not only stored in an extremely tough structure which is hardly ever the target of a base rush, but also like OP mentioned restored for free when the structure is rebuilt.
What if the armor/weapon upgrades were linked to the arms lab which researched them, and they were lost when that lab was destroyed, having to be researched again?
<i>"Marines have this thing but aliens don't have the exect same thing only slightly changed...."</i>
/sigh....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look the fact of the matter is that upgrades are way way more vulnerable for the aliens than they are for the marines. Even if the upgrades are distributed differently it needs to be just as difficult for the marines to snipe alien upgrades as it is for the aliens to snipe marine upgrades. And right now it is ten times easier to be cost-effective sniping the alien upgrades as a marine.
Look at it this way: A marine needs only a few moments (even if he's alone) to kill a carapace shell. One LMG mag, his pistol mag and then a second or so of axing. Then after that, bam 25 t.res down the drain. Not only that but the aliens have to wait for a period of time before their upgrade comes back. Aliens also have no quick way of getting back to their hive to save the tower and dont you dare say celerity.
On the other hand: An alien goes into a marine base and chooses to attack the arms lab of all things. Its going to take significantly longer to kill that arms lab than it would take a marine to kill an upgrade structure. In fact if a marine were left alone he could probably kill two before that alien got the arms lab down. Marines can also easily pop through a phase gate and get the alien off of the arms lab due to ranged weaponry, another advantage marines have over aliens in this regard. If the alien miraculously takes down the arms lab, a new one is popped down for a relatively small fee and bam, all upgrades are instantly online. Next to no wait. Oh and for less t.res too depending on the upgrade.
This, my friend, is imbalanced. Even if the damn game is asymmetrical it still needs to be balanced. Theres a reason some players drop their weapons and sprint straight for the hives every game to snipe upgrades, because it's an exploitable, imbalanced mechanic of this game that it pays to exploit.
All I want is for the aliens to be able to exploit the same thing if the marines are able to.
Although I agree that upgrade sniping is way too hard for aliens and too easy for marines. The problem has nothing to do with asymmetry. Yes, marines don't need to research their upgrades again, when the arms-lab is destroyed. This is ok. It is asymmetrical. BUT the arms-lab has too much health and is too cheap to be a valid target for an alien that could manage to sneak into the marine base.
I think an easy solution could be to slightly increase the health of the alien upgrade buildings and slightly decrease the health of the arms-lab and the proto-lab. Together with an increase of build-time and cost of the arms-lab. (And marines should lose the upgrades the moment the arms lab goes down.)
Is it that hard to ask for the aliens equivalent structure gets taken out all they have to do is just rebuild it and NOT have to research the upgrade again?
<i>"Marines have this thing but aliens don't have the exect same thing only slightly changed...."</i>
/sigh....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am always hearing people say this crap. Why does everything in the game have to be asymmetric? The alien life forms vs the marine lifeforms are extremely asymmetric, every single part of the game does not have to be asymmetric to have asymmetry. In SC2 do you have wildly different upgrade structures? No they are essentially the game yet you wouldn't call the races symmetric.
I don't really have a problem with the cost of alien upgrades (beyond balancing the different tech choice for aliens) but the ease of killing them is a massive problem. All upgrade structures need a massive health boost, as much as 2-3 times hp would be appropriate so that the current strategy of marines ramboing the hive and hoping theres only 1 or no skulks around won't work anymore. At the least they should be able to survive for a similar amount of time as an obs vs a skulk.
Yeah. And hive teleport.
Alien upgrade structures need to be less ninja-able, or easier to recover from losing. When I as a marine can waltz into a hive and take down both the cara and regen shells before any aliens can respond, something is wrong.
What the...
It was fun as hell to hide alien structures everywhere. For both sides.
Having three non-specific chambers gave aliens more variety in their ups (since the kahmm didnt have to choose which ones his team deserves)
It also made their upgrades more durable, without being invincable (3 seperate levels of upgrades, killing one chamber weakens an upgrade, but doesnt kill it and require an addition 25+ res to be spent to get it back)
Aliens still have about 3 upgrade chambers per hive type anyway (3 different ups per type)
Since 3 structures would be required, upgrade strength could be increased as well to give aliens late game scaling (30 res per chamber or so would allow for much more powerful upgrades)
The only drawback I can think of for having the 3 chamber system is that the Kahmm has less buttons to press to get full strength upgrades (which is a minor concern as far as fun gameplay is concerned)
otherwise i think they are fine, i do however like the idea (cant remember where i read it) of being able to have 2 or 3 of the same hive type and thus being able to have 2 or 3 of the hive types upgrades. (2 crag hives = able to have carapace and regen)
as for alien scaling
i think abilities should be looked at, someone mentioned before about having level 1, level 2 and level 3 of each ability. In otherwords a tier system for abilities, i think thats a pretty good idea tbh. If you lose a 2nd hive, that puts you down to level 1 abilities, at least you dont lose everything. And lategame skulks would have lvl 3 leap and lvl 3 xeno, early game 1 hive skulks wouldnt be OP with lvl 1 leap and lvl 1 xeno.
You wait till the very end to torpedo your entire argument.
wow...
that was FIVE MARINES shooting that RT ffs. doesnt need a nerf. next.
I don't really have a problem with the cost of alien upgrades (beyond balancing the different tech choice for aliens) but the ease of killing them is a massive problem. All upgrade structures need a massive health boost, as much as 2-3 times hp would be appropriate so that the current strategy of marines ramboing the hive and hoping theres only 1 or no skulks around won't work anymore. At the least they should be able to survive for a similar amount of time as an obs vs a skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
nope, alien structures are cheaper and you can place as many backups you can afford. problem is no alien com does this and alien teams dont watch choke pts so a single marine can run all the way to the hive and have time to knife down an upgrade. on top of that they can only kill one upgrade at a time (if you dont have backups placed elsewhere). if your team went for the arms lab you can destroy every a/w upgrade the marines have in an instant (which makes the tie upgrades to com chairs argument meaningless to begin with)
If you kill an alien upgrade, every alien that is alive with the upgrade KEEPS the upgrade until they are dead. but your rationale is that the marine structure should be made weaker? really? on top of that you want the alien structure (which are far cheaper, easier to hide if you have a competent gorge, and are able to be duplicated), to have a health boost?!
lol