Meh skulk is underestimated... People complain about it on paper but honestly late game skulk isn't that bad. Sure Focus made late game skulk pretty damn amazing in NS1 but do you remember NS1 fades?!?!?
Once they fix Xenocide (for late game) and bite cone gets buffed up killing a marine with a skulk will be too easy once again. I mean honestly 10 Xenociding skulks vs 10 Jetpacking marines... My money is on the skulks.
Remember that despite your little alien friend not getting progressive damage and health upgrades he can still climb walls, move crazy fast and leap to go even faster... All for 0 resources.
Leap and move crazy fast for 0 resources? You mean the 45 T.res for celerity + 40 (hive) + 25 T.res for leap, just to make the little bugger at least able to compete with T0 marines?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure Focus made late game skulk pretty damn amazing in NS1 but do you remember NS1 fades?!?!?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't see why we can't have focus tailored to individual lifeforms rather than it being a flat 200% dmg trade-off for all lifeforms? It wouldn't be any different from for example carapace. Just have fades only gain 150% dmg for 25% less speed instead of the base 200% more dmg and 50% slower .
<!--quoteo(post=1996293:date=Oct 24 2012, 08:07 PM:name=PowerMustache)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PowerMustache @ Oct 24 2012, 08:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1996293"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont understand why focus was taken out, it would make skulks more useful in late game ( like in NS1 )<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, Focus was great, I don't understand that either.
On paper, skulk sounds incredibly weak. 10 bullets to kill one skulk? Sounds bad, doesn't it? But how many times have you actually killed even 3 skulks with one clip, let alone two? Now, some of this might be hitreg issues, but you get my point here.
Skulk isn't meant as a pure offense class. A skulk should never take a marine head on. Does this make it weaker? No. If you were to ambush him, you would get a good chance. You need to be stealthy. Numbers can't translate perfectly to this kind of playstyle. It's harder to use stats to tell if something is balanced or not with this variable.
For example, how do you balance the silence evolution with Weapons 3? If you're seen instantly, then your the advantage of no movement noise is gone. You'll be left to fight a hard battle with the odds against you.
People arguing that the Weapon/Armor scaling is unfair need to think about the evolutions. All evos are free, just like their marine counterparts. They don't scale because you have a wide range of choices. Some of these are stealth and speed upgrades, who's power can't really be measured. They can either be employed in perfect manner, or they may be squandered.
However, the bite range DOES have a predictable effect on skulk because no matter how well planned your super-secret ambush was; if you can't land anything you'll lose anyway.
It's also worth noting that unlike the W/A scaling, evos don't take effect on spawn. It COULD be argued that this too is because you get a wide range of choices (therefore the evolve time commits you to the build), but this is a slightly weaker point.
Skulk takes getting used to and is a bit underpowered now, but it's not like it doesn't have any conceivable chance.
<!--quoteo(post=1996543:date=Oct 24 2012, 10:01 PM:name=sushia11)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sushia11 @ Oct 24 2012, 10:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1996543"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On paper, skulk sounds incredibly weak. 10 bullets to kill one skulk? Sounds bad, doesn't it? But how many times have you actually killed even 3 skulks with one clip, let alone two? Now, some of this might be hitreg issues, but you get my point here.
Skulk isn't meant as a pure offense class. A skulk should never take a marine head on. Does this make it weaker? No. If you were to ambush him, you would get a good chance. You need to be stealthy. Numbers can't translate perfectly to this kind of playstyle. It's harder to use stats to tell if something is balanced or not with this variable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Problem is that a skulk can't always just sit around waiting to ambush. Sometimes aliens have to push (as in any game) and take out marines and their structures. If you don't push, you don't win. Atm, a decent marine can survive long enough against 3-4 skulks to get AT LEAST 1 kill. If this in fixed in 224, we will see.
You can use stats though (at least to a point). If you see the majority of marines having a positive k/d and the majority of aliens having a negative k/d (as it is now), then you know that something is off. Especially when marines are winning much more than aliens. A stealthy skulk who is doing as well as you're claiming will not have a terribly negative k/d as is being seen now. And it's kind of hard to be stealthy when you are ginormous and relatively slow (and have this part of your model that sticks out further than your view infers).
<!--quoteo(post=1996571:date=Oct 24 2012, 06:10 PM:name=Samus1111111)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Samus1111111 @ Oct 24 2012, 06:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1996571"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Problem is that a skulk can't always just sit around waiting to ambush. Sometimes aliens have to push (as in any game) and take out marines and their structures. If you don't push, you don't win. Atm, a decent marine can survive long enough against 3-4 skulks to get AT LEAST 1 kill. If this in fixed in 224, we will see.
You can use stats though (at least to a point). If you see the majority of marines having a positive k/d and the majority of aliens having a negative k/d (as it is now), then you know that something is off. Especially when marines are winning much more than aliens. A stealthy skulk who is doing as well as you're claiming will not have a terribly negative k/d as is being seen now. And it's kind of hard to be stealthy when you are ginormous and relatively slow (and have this part of your model that sticks out further than your view infers).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I get your drift. But actually a skulk rush is a pretty effective thing. Skulk rushes are good at pushing marines out of a specific area. It uses brute strength and numbers to overwhelm enemy positions. Because of this nature, it's likely not everyone will survive. Part of the reason the alien spawning was changed to waves was because it makes reforming a rush easier if everyone is in the same area. Kinda the same idea with a beacon that isn't initiated to save a power node.
I'm just saying that it can be hard to measure balance with plain stats. So much is situational. You would think this would detract from skill-based gamplay, but it enhances it. For example, a marine has an advantage in confined corridors, while an alien has an advantage in wide open rooms. Take a look at maps like Veil. The starting point for marines is a command room with a relatively low ceiling. The other half of the map favors aliens (ex. cargo and sub-sector).
I am however NOT saying that the game doesn't have at least some balance issues. Hard numbers (like skulk range/cone) are really important, because everything is tied to them.
Part of the problem seems to be that marines scale much better with <b>player skill</b> than skulks. An average marine vs. an average skulk is pretty much 50/50% (situational of course), but a great marine player will just decimate hordes of skulks and two of them can pretty much lock down a hive in the early game with occasional medpacks and ammo. You can see this even (or especially) in competitive play.
A skulk will never have a 30/3 K/D ratio while for a marine like Tane or Fana that's pretty much a normal day at the office. Now obviously a fade is the counter (and counterpart) to this, they will (and should) wipe out LMG marines with relative ease. But this mostly concerns the first 5 minutes of the game which obviously are also the most crucial. So funnily enough, I think it's the first 5 minutes where skulks are at a disadvantage -- IF the skill level is relatively high on both teams. With two hives they are pretty much a match for mid game marines (weapons/armor 1-2, maybe a shotty) in my opinion and in the end game they can actually be pretty effective, but only when coupled with fades and oni who will soak up most of the attention and damage, making it easier for skulks to flank marines. And if you don't have fades and oni at that point it just means you already lost the game.
The thing is though, I'm not sure player skill is something that should be handicapped or "nerfed". :)
<!--quoteo(post=1996413:date=Oct 25 2012, 12:51 AM:name=Flatlander)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flatlander @ Oct 25 2012, 12:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1996413"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2 marines shooting at a hallway with skulks, maximum of 8 dead skulks in 2.8 seconds... It makes it a HUGE disadvantage to come in groups (<b>at least from the same direction</b>) for skulks and huge advantage to stay in groups as marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well duh. I know sometimes there just isn't an alternative route to get to the marines, but otherwise that's not something skulks should ever do. Coordinate your attack and come from multiple sides (including the ceiling) and suddenly that marine stack is jumping into each other and blocking a lot of bullets. Doesn't work so good against skilled marines who can actually keep lines of fire, but that's why they call them "skilled".
Well done on noticing skulk isn't an offensive class. Structure take down should never be aeorial unless you have 3+ sides to play. To be aeorial ... just note the lerk bile attempt .... n said.
*Really* don't want to know what such a revelation has on the fa/te s of the world ... maybe it's just those mr ######s I should be personally worried about.
Comments
People complain about it on paper but honestly late game skulk isn't that bad.
Sure Focus made late game skulk pretty damn amazing in NS1 but do you remember NS1 fades?!?!?
Once they fix Xenocide (for late game) and bite cone gets buffed up killing a marine with a skulk will be too easy once
again. I mean honestly 10 Xenociding skulks vs 10 Jetpacking marines... My money is on the skulks.
Remember that despite your little alien friend not getting progressive damage and health upgrades he
can still climb walls, move crazy fast and leap to go even faster... All for 0 resources.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure Focus made late game skulk pretty damn amazing in NS1 but do you remember NS1 fades?!?!?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see why we can't have focus tailored to individual lifeforms rather than it being a flat 200% dmg trade-off for all lifeforms? It wouldn't be any different from for example carapace. Just have fades only gain 150% dmg for 25% less speed instead of the base 200% more dmg and 50% slower .
<a href="https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7sQQuIO-9Tba2x0WWJmRWdLX3M/edit" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7sQQuIO-9T...WJmRWdLX3M/edit</a>
Yeah, Focus was great, I don't understand that either.
Skulk isn't meant as a pure offense class. A skulk should never take a marine head on. Does this make it weaker? No. If you were to ambush him, you would get a good chance. You need to be stealthy. Numbers can't translate perfectly to this kind of playstyle. It's harder to use stats to tell if something is balanced or not with this variable.
For example, how do you balance the silence evolution with Weapons 3? If you're seen instantly, then your the advantage of no movement noise is gone. You'll be left to fight a hard battle with the odds against you.
People arguing that the Weapon/Armor scaling is unfair need to think about the evolutions. All evos are free, just like their marine counterparts. They don't scale because you have a wide range of choices. Some of these are stealth and speed upgrades, who's power can't really be measured. They can either be employed in perfect manner, or they may be squandered.
However, the bite range DOES have a predictable effect on skulk because no matter how well planned your super-secret ambush was; if you can't land anything you'll lose anyway.
It's also worth noting that unlike the W/A scaling, evos don't take effect on spawn. It COULD be argued that this too is because you get a wide range of choices (therefore the evolve time commits you to the build), but this is a slightly weaker point.
Skulk takes getting used to and is a bit underpowered now, but it's not like it doesn't have any conceivable chance.
Skulk isn't meant as a pure offense class. A skulk should never take a marine head on. Does this make it weaker? No. If you were to ambush him, you would get a good chance. You need to be stealthy. Numbers can't translate perfectly to this kind of playstyle. It's harder to use stats to tell if something is balanced or not with this variable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Problem is that a skulk can't always just sit around waiting to ambush. Sometimes aliens have to push (as in any game) and take out marines and their structures. If you don't push, you don't win. Atm, a decent marine can survive long enough against 3-4 skulks to get AT LEAST 1 kill. If this in fixed in 224, we will see.
You can use stats though (at least to a point). If you see the majority of marines having a positive k/d and the majority of aliens having a negative k/d (as it is now), then you know that something is off. Especially when marines are winning much more than aliens. A stealthy skulk who is doing as well as you're claiming will not have a terribly negative k/d as is being seen now. And it's kind of hard to be stealthy when you are ginormous and relatively slow (and have this part of your model that sticks out further than your view infers).
You can use stats though (at least to a point). If you see the majority of marines having a positive k/d and the majority of aliens having a negative k/d (as it is now), then you know that something is off. Especially when marines are winning much more than aliens. A stealthy skulk who is doing as well as you're claiming will not have a terribly negative k/d as is being seen now. And it's kind of hard to be stealthy when you are ginormous and relatively slow (and have this part of your model that sticks out further than your view infers).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I get your drift. But actually a skulk rush is a pretty effective thing. Skulk rushes are good at pushing marines out of a specific area. It uses brute strength and numbers to overwhelm enemy positions. Because of this nature, it's likely not everyone will survive. Part of the reason the alien spawning was changed to waves was because it makes reforming a rush easier if everyone is in the same area. Kinda the same idea with a beacon that isn't initiated to save a power node.
I'm just saying that it can be hard to measure balance with plain stats. So much is situational. You would think this would detract from skill-based gamplay, but it enhances it. For example, a marine has an advantage in confined corridors, while an alien has an advantage in wide open rooms. Take a look at maps like Veil. The starting point for marines is a command room with a relatively low ceiling. The other half of the map favors aliens (ex. cargo and sub-sector).
I am however NOT saying that the game doesn't have at least some balance issues. Hard numbers (like skulk range/cone) are really important, because everything is tied to them.
A skulk will never have a 30/3 K/D ratio while for a marine like Tane or Fana that's pretty much a normal day at the office. Now obviously a fade is the counter (and counterpart) to this, they will (and should) wipe out LMG marines with relative ease. But this mostly concerns the first 5 minutes of the game which obviously are also the most crucial. So funnily enough, I think it's the first 5 minutes where skulks are at a disadvantage -- IF the skill level is relatively high on both teams. With two hives they are pretty much a match for mid game marines (weapons/armor 1-2, maybe a shotty) in my opinion and in the end game they can actually be pretty effective, but only when coupled with fades and oni who will soak up most of the attention and damage, making it easier for skulks to flank marines. And if you don't have fades and oni at that point it just means you already lost the game.
The thing is though, I'm not sure player skill is something that should be handicapped or "nerfed". :)
Well duh. I know sometimes there just isn't an alternative route to get to the marines, but otherwise that's not something skulks should ever do. Coordinate your attack and come from multiple sides (including the ceiling) and suddenly that marine stack is jumping into each other and blocking a lot of bullets. Doesn't work so good against skilled marines who can actually keep lines of fire, but that's why they call them "skilled".
Well done on noticing skulk isn't an offensive class. Structure take down should never be aeorial unless you have 3+ sides to play. To be aeorial ... just note the lerk bile attempt .... n said.
*Really* don't want to know what such a revelation has on the fa/te s of the world ... maybe it's just those mr ######s I should be personally worried about.