Help entry level clans
RisingSun
RisingCalifornia Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28015Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
RisingCalifornia Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28015Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
NS Competitive Community,
I stand before you a beaten and broken player. Team #156 attempted tournament play with no success. It wasnt just that we lost but how badly we lost. Internally we knew this would happen but we strived to not look at clan tags and play to the best of our ability. We knew for a fact we could not compete skill wise when it came to pure KDR. We adapted our strats to counter this but came up short in every way. On aliens (minus strange comm choices) we were defeated by mines. I think if mines had their own kills tallied they would have led and on Marine side we couldnt keep up 2 towers long enough to get past phase tech. No matter what cheese or safe strat we used it fell apart to the pure KDR discrepancy. Marines have ranged but when we even get close they have the mines to thwart us. When faced with overwhelming skulk packs we cant kill more than 1 before dying not to mention higher lifeforms.
So i pose this question to this wise community. Where is the strategy in NS2? What are the bottle necks and what changes could be made so entry level teams at least have a shot at winning when aiming isnt their strongest area?
In the end it is more of a L2P issue but consider this, when Arc uses 2-3 skulks to down a marine group no matter how big to help with the disadvantage what does a team of less skilled players do? We run around in a 4 player skulk pack but still have issues. There is already a division in skill and a ceiling exists that #156 has hit as casual gamers that i dont think we will be able to break through. No one likes to lose all the time no matter how humble or good natured my teammates are. Is strategy in NS2 dead or is it so inconsequential that being a good shot is all you need?
On a side note i'd like to thank the teams in the Razer Tourney for great games. All-in and Nor Cal have improved so much and it is always a pleasure to get stomped by Nxzl.
I stand before you a beaten and broken player. Team #156 attempted tournament play with no success. It wasnt just that we lost but how badly we lost. Internally we knew this would happen but we strived to not look at clan tags and play to the best of our ability. We knew for a fact we could not compete skill wise when it came to pure KDR. We adapted our strats to counter this but came up short in every way. On aliens (minus strange comm choices) we were defeated by mines. I think if mines had their own kills tallied they would have led and on Marine side we couldnt keep up 2 towers long enough to get past phase tech. No matter what cheese or safe strat we used it fell apart to the pure KDR discrepancy. Marines have ranged but when we even get close they have the mines to thwart us. When faced with overwhelming skulk packs we cant kill more than 1 before dying not to mention higher lifeforms.
So i pose this question to this wise community. Where is the strategy in NS2? What are the bottle necks and what changes could be made so entry level teams at least have a shot at winning when aiming isnt their strongest area?
In the end it is more of a L2P issue but consider this, when Arc uses 2-3 skulks to down a marine group no matter how big to help with the disadvantage what does a team of less skilled players do? We run around in a 4 player skulk pack but still have issues. There is already a division in skill and a ceiling exists that #156 has hit as casual gamers that i dont think we will be able to break through. No one likes to lose all the time no matter how humble or good natured my teammates are. Is strategy in NS2 dead or is it so inconsequential that being a good shot is all you need?
On a side note i'd like to thank the teams in the Razer Tourney for great games. All-in and Nor Cal have improved so much and it is always a pleasure to get stomped by Nxzl.
Comments
The fact that the NS2 comp scene is so limited in number of teams currently is an issue that will hopefully be alleviated with 1.0 (to see more teams at your level of skill, currently there's the top-of-the-line, the middle and then 1 or 2 teams at the lower end per region, if even that). The guys at the lower end get stomped in EU too.
Strategy is still very important (just not very flexible at the moment).
The fact that the NS2 comp scene is so limited in number of teams currently is an issue that will hopefully be alleviated with 1.0 (to see more teams at your level of skill, currently there's the top-of-the-line, the middle and then 1 or 2 teams at the lower end per region, if even that). The guys at the lower end get stomped in EU too.
Strategy is still very important (just not very flexible at the moment).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very true. I would just like there to be a little more game play before such a decisive loss is assured.
There is one part of competitive NS that is troubling and that is the Skulk Rush. It is a strategy that you might as well use since there are 0 down sides. With no RFK and no reason for skulks to do anything but attack we find as a lower ranked clan surviving that skulk rush is almost impossible. At least in NS, a skulk rush not only gave the other team res but cost you valuable time as rt/gorge or chamber placement.
Marines can't afford to put mines everywhere, and the ones they do place don't stand up well to attrition. They have to defend their westward expansion, east expansion, and base at every point in the game. You guys can pick and choose where to attack, but a lot of your alien play seemed like you were just splitting off your forces in repeated unsuccessful attempts to defend against marine expansion.
Strategy is neither dead nor inconsequential in NS2, but it's at least as hard to perfect as being a good fighter.
Yeah, this is very true.
In NS2 more so than in other games, I think that a smaller difference in skill provides more severe wins. I think this is due to the snowball effect. If you're noticeably better than your opponent in the early game then you carry that huge resource and territory advantage over into midgame. These in game advantages gained compound with the slight skill advantage and then you see the better team absolutely crush midgame.
I suggest long nights on combat servers practicing vanilla marine vs vanilla skulks.
We (nc) scrimmed nxzl or inversion almost every night, and still do. And still they handle us pretty easily. Its practice practice practice.
Reminds me of this game in which dear won against flash just by outsmarting him:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHfKkYquZiQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHfKkYquZiQ</a>
I think it's really unfair to say that strategy may be dead in NS2 because "the best of the best are better than most". Any kind of competitive game, whether IRL or !IRL, is broken up into skill tiers. When me and a couple guys I kinda know from the bar go play a round of (American) football, there is absolutely no reason to think we're going to stand a chance against the New England Patriots. They won't even have to employ basic strategy against us, because they can all throw/catch/punt/run/tackle/etc better than us. But that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with football, or, as it were, NS2. That's the nature of competitive play. I don't mean to sound belittling here--trust me, when I get a K:D ratio of anywhere NEAR 1:1 against vets, I feel like I won the game.
Strategy in a repetitive, no-cost environment, is a variable that can help tip the scales, but it will only tip them so far. If you play against people of your own skill level, strategy will play a huge role; if you play against a team that totally out-classes you, it ain't gonna happen.
So what should we do? Have fun! If you don't enjoy playing against teams that consistently wipe the floor with you, well, play against someone else!
I think it's really unfair to say that strategy may be dead in NS2 because "the best of the best are better than most". Any kind of competitive game, whether IRL or !IRL, is broken up into skill tiers. When me and a couple guys I kinda know from the bar go play a round of (American) football, there is absolutely no reason to think we're going to stand a chance against the New England Patriots. They won't even have to employ basic strategy against us, because they can all throw/catch/punt/run/tackle/etc better than us. But that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with football, or, as it were, NS2. That's the nature of competitive play. I don't mean to sound belittling here--trust me, when I get a K:D ratio of anywhere NEAR 1:1 against vets, I feel like I won the game.
Strategy in a repetitive, no-cost environment, is a variable that can help tip the scales, but it will only tip them so far. If you play against people of your own skill level, strategy will play a huge role; if you play against a team that totally out-classes you, it ain't gonna happen.
So what should we do? Have fun! If you don't enjoy playing against teams that consistently wipe the floor with you, well, play against someone else!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point though i think football is a different ballpark, though i get your meaning. Your last sentence is what is impossible at the moment. Waiting for release will help this and hopefully an actual league will spring up.
Thank you for all the insight guys and keeping it professional =) I know we "suck" at the moment and you all didnt rub our nose in it. It is appreciated.
Reminds me of this game in which dear won against flash just by outsmarting him:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHfKkYquZiQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHfKkYquZiQ</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find its more that strategy execution is heavily dependent on individual skill (primarily shooting and skulking). Doesn't matter if we have the most amazing strategy ever, if we're losing the 2v1 or 4v2 matchups we're simply done.
Intentional pun? I hope so, I got the giggles :D
Strategy comes into play as a major deciding factor, when the FPS-skill levels are not too far apart.
So I'd say, hang on till a while after 1.0; I'm fairly confident some more teams will show up, as NS2 will be available to even more people then.
I don't really think this is the problem, in starcraft you also require strong mechanics in order to implement your strategy. It's more that the strategic depth is to shallow, that the strategic skill ceiling is to low.
As an illustration consider team A and team B. Team A is two times better at mechanics but team B in 100 times better than team A at strategy. Who wins?
Team A, because there is nothing like being 100 better at strategy in NS2, you can only be like 1.5 times better at max. I'm exaggerating a bit but you get the point.
There's several factors that undermine strategic depth in NS2, that have been discussed here and there on these forums.
Anyway, improving it would probably not solve RisingSun problem as team that are better at mechanics are usually also better at strategy. Bigger community with release is more likely to help.
You must be some sort of RTS God, getting 6 enzymed skulks on an obs (that is supposedly in the marine base) in a competitive match :p
7v7, baby! We need to make it happen!
In 6v6, you just have to drop a hive over the enemy CC to trigger the Enzyme from. :3
Work on your own strategy, try your best and soon you will find more clans on the same level as you. Thats the time where you can actually see, if a strategyis working or not. I personally felt a bit sorry for you guys =(. Was no fun seeing all the stomps in every fight.
Good luck
You have to get many clans to compete between each other so each of them gets their proper opponent skill wise.
Eventually all this will happen.
Playing as an occassional ringer/mercenary for higher end teams can probably help quite a bit, especially right now when there's no NS2TV system around. Pay attention to how experienced players communicate, what kind of ingame timings they hit and so on. Then relate that experience to how your own team plays. The same goes obviously for gathers also, but you have to be a bit more picky on where you choose to take your influences.
Of course it's not always a good idea to stubborly copy and replicate the play of the high level teams - both because all the teams still have their own flaws at this point and also because your team might not have the way of execution required for something to work. However, sometimes blindly mimicing things even if you don't understand them can still be very beneficial. Often the mimicry still retains the benefits and you're able to see the reasoning as it shows up in the game itself.
First off, as others say, being able to combat your opponents is needed, at least to some extend.
To make your chances better as a marine, you can camp near a resnode, or something similar.
Wait for the skulk(s) to begin biting it. They will be near stationary targets when you pop out to kill them, and your aiming skills won't matter as much in that engagement.
I would recommend you to try mines first, and have your team place them all over vents, resnodes, base, phase gates etc.
Mines are very strong in the early game, and can hog you many kills. However, they are rather weak once lifeforms comes out.
Lerk can snipe them, fade easily trigger them, onos don't care.
That's my two cents for you. Hope you find it useful.
as far as NS-specific advice, it just plays so differently from a public server, so there are a lot of things to work on at once. alien play is much more passive and teamwork-based. there's the concept of drawing fire (which I've hardly seen any team do except for the EU teams) instead of just suiciding your skulks into a room. there's a lot more hit and run involved. just keep playing, and slowly you will learn to separate "pub-play" from "comp-play".
for example, in pubs I rarely ever spore as a lerk just because it's more satisfying to attempt to outmaneuver the mooks by going in for bites. in a scrim, I don't think I've ever tried to engage a shotgun directly, and if I have, I'm almost certain it should have resulted in a death every time. you will get a sense for how "in danger" you are, but not until you just keep playing :P
finally, individual skill. as you said, all these concepts are completely thrown out the window when teams can 2v4 you skulk vs. marine. however, this shouldn't be seen as a wall of any sort. aim can be improved upon just as much as your strategies and tactics can, just ask Bitey.