Who is the aggressor?
beyond.wudge
Join Date: 2012-10-19 Member: 162731Members
Join Date: 2012-10-19 Member: 162731Members
According to the fluff the Marines are coming onto the facility to reclaim it from the Aliens. They are reactivating their old nano-grid and clearing out the infestation. The game is balanced around allowing them to push and push hard into Alien territory, always just barely being held off from killing the Alien hives. Watching a number of the recent finals games you can see this phenomena a lot.
However, they are also the ranged side. This creates a very curious dynamic because they have the defensive advantage. They can turtle very hard because they have the range advantage. In a way it is almost counter-intuitive that Marines are balanced to be the attackers in the game.
In many respects, it seems more sensible to see the Marines be very defensive and have difficulty pushing across the map without all their toys, buildings and teamwork to keep them safe.
How do people feel about this?
SC2 can show how this 'A handful of elite Marines raid the Alien hive' dynamic can be a bit ridiculous when pushed too far. As much as a top few Zergs have kept the race competitive during the bad times, there was a lot of patching and map changes required before the 'Marines raiding the Alien hive' meme wasn't just watching Terran players doing terrible terrible damage to Zerg with a few macro mechanic crutches being all that could bring them back into the game.
Watching the Guru Grand Finals amongst a number of other games, seeing Marine pushes can be fun. However, a game where one side is the perpetual aggressor (i.e. SC2 TvZ) this can get very samey. There are only so many times you can see the Aliens get beat over the head before you start to find the game predictable.
Personally I would hope to see neither side balanced strictly towards aggression or defence. I think it is a dead-end which SC1 avoided by giving both sides a well rounded set of tools and not deliberately robbing a side of something basic so as to arrange a particular game outcome like SC2 did, by basically nerfing the hell out of Zerg's mobile anti-air to facilitate 'easymode' drop play.
It's one thing to have an asymmetrical game. SC1 was deeply asymmetrical. It's another to cripple a side so as to force a particular 'movie-like' outcome in a game. Predetermining that one side has the advantage early on whilst the other must tech or macro to come back means that a match can only go in a few specific directions, many of which become very very predictable to watch and play.
Also, a big problem with designing games around movies is that the humans eventually win. It's sort of inherent to the flavour of those movies and the memes derived from them. You can't try to have a game where you can be rambo yet end up losing, it just doesn't work.
Anyways, those are just a few of my thoughts. Do you guys like having the sides in set roles? Or do you enjoy seeing it be a little more based on how people play and not which team they pick?
However, they are also the ranged side. This creates a very curious dynamic because they have the defensive advantage. They can turtle very hard because they have the range advantage. In a way it is almost counter-intuitive that Marines are balanced to be the attackers in the game.
In many respects, it seems more sensible to see the Marines be very defensive and have difficulty pushing across the map without all their toys, buildings and teamwork to keep them safe.
How do people feel about this?
SC2 can show how this 'A handful of elite Marines raid the Alien hive' dynamic can be a bit ridiculous when pushed too far. As much as a top few Zergs have kept the race competitive during the bad times, there was a lot of patching and map changes required before the 'Marines raiding the Alien hive' meme wasn't just watching Terran players doing terrible terrible damage to Zerg with a few macro mechanic crutches being all that could bring them back into the game.
Watching the Guru Grand Finals amongst a number of other games, seeing Marine pushes can be fun. However, a game where one side is the perpetual aggressor (i.e. SC2 TvZ) this can get very samey. There are only so many times you can see the Aliens get beat over the head before you start to find the game predictable.
Personally I would hope to see neither side balanced strictly towards aggression or defence. I think it is a dead-end which SC1 avoided by giving both sides a well rounded set of tools and not deliberately robbing a side of something basic so as to arrange a particular game outcome like SC2 did, by basically nerfing the hell out of Zerg's mobile anti-air to facilitate 'easymode' drop play.
It's one thing to have an asymmetrical game. SC1 was deeply asymmetrical. It's another to cripple a side so as to force a particular 'movie-like' outcome in a game. Predetermining that one side has the advantage early on whilst the other must tech or macro to come back means that a match can only go in a few specific directions, many of which become very very predictable to watch and play.
Also, a big problem with designing games around movies is that the humans eventually win. It's sort of inherent to the flavour of those movies and the memes derived from them. You can't try to have a game where you can be rambo yet end up losing, it just doesn't work.
Anyways, those are just a few of my thoughts. Do you guys like having the sides in set roles? Or do you enjoy seeing it be a little more based on how people play and not which team they pick?
Comments
In NS2 this is not the case at all. Marines ALWAYS dominate the map in the first 10 minutes no questions asked. Hugh (Sorry if I spell it wrong) said it himself during the logitech finals "Its good if an Alien team has 3 resource nodes even if marines have 7." With phase gates, Aliens dominating the map is never going to happen especially with fixed spawns. I find that mechanic quite strange, phase gates coupled with a sprint and I believe faster spawn times (Not sure because they have set number of infantry portals while aliens have eggs) give Marines a much faster reaction time to attack, oh and beacon. Meanwhile Aliens are SEVERELY punished for going agro on base because
1. Marines can just phase back.
2. If you are actually in danger of doing any real damage they can beacon.
3. While you are traveling to attack their base, your team is down one person trying to defend.
4. The ability of the marines to siege and harass hives is FAR greater than the aliens because of building placements.
In conclusion yes I feel like gameplay is a little wonky right now. And yes you are right in pointing out that as of right now roles are far too predetermined. But the game is definitely going to receive a lot of post launch support and HOPEFULLY continual updates to make this a fantastic competitive game.
Alternatively, let gorges dig tunnels under the map! I know this will never get coded since it'd require redoing all the maps but I like the idea anyway.
Edit- This only really applies in the early stages of the game. Once the higher life forms come out the aggression is on both sides.
I feel like Cysts should be free. Maybe be on a timer so you get like 10 cysts a minute and then it refreshes or continually refreshes idk
YES.
I've been thinking about this as well. I think the "Khammander" needs to have more useful abilities that can be used on infestation. Spikes are useful for cutting marines, even Exos off from the rest of their teammates. Alien Com should have an arsenal of defensive/utility abilities that can be used on infestation, with the better ones coming with more hives. I could see the Khamm using an ability like this anywhere on infestation near players to lead to a specified hive or even just a hive that is under attack.
I see nothing wrong with this, marines can only build phases on land that doesn't have creep on it
There's several reasons for this imo:
- The Alien spawn system, this is an obvious one. (Easy to egg lock, long waits at the start of the game, ... 2 marine IPs is way faster)
- No hive teleport (Aliens are much slower to respond to threats and have no reliable way to cross the map fast)
- Marine sprint (Marines can traverse the map by foot almost as fast as aliens can, certainly if aliens have no celerity)
- Cheap Marine Phase tech
- No reliable alien skill-based movement mechanic (wall jump is really not that great at giving aliens the edge in terms of speed, without celerity, atm)
So... yeah.
But mind you the game is now also balanced about that, with more alien aggression also comes more alien map control (more extractors) and thus alien tech costs would have to be tweaked accordingly. But needless to say, SOME changes are in order to at least put both sides on more equal footing again, marines currently DEFINITELY have a big edge.
- The Alien spawn system, this is an obvious one. (Easy to egg lock, long waits at the start of the game, ... 2 marine IPs is way faster)
- No hive teleport (Aliens are much slower to respond to threats and have no reliable way to cross the map fast)
- Marine sprint (Marines can traverse the map by foot almost as fast as aliens can, certainly if aliens have no celerity)
- Cheap Marine Phase tech
- No reliable alien skill-based movement mechanic (wall jump is really not that great at giving aliens the edge in terms of speed, without celerity, atm)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Increase the health of eggs should help aliens really do need a teleport structure. I don't know if its been changed but marines can drop all his gear and out run a cele skulk