Adapting from NS to NS2
Swiftspear
Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
<div class="IPBDescription">questions to experienced NS2ers</div>I've got a bunch of questions, mostly regarding strategy. I was looking up tutorials on line, but they seem very out of date. I was hoping to get input from experienced NS2 players on the current state of things.
<b>Marines:</b>
Power nozzle things: I understand these power buildings in the room they are in? Obviously they also turn the lights on. What do they cost for the comm to drop them? From the games I've played so far it seems like most commanders prioritize them... Are they required to run nearby extractors? It seems to me, if they have some expense attached to them, and it's an area you don't intend to build other things, it might be worth it to skip them? Is this adviseable or not, and why/why not?
Shotguns: The shotgun feels a little anemic compared to NS1. The spread feels very wide so it's not very useful long range, and it doesn't really seem like you generally can 1-shot a skulk any more. I do notice, as an alien, they work well with other AR marines in the area to do that bit of extra damage that the shotgun can't manage in the single shot. Am I correct in the observation that shotguns and grenade launchers aren't quite the potent anti-structure weapons they used to be?
FlameThrowers: I'm noticing they're not completely useless against lifeforms, but they don't seem incredibly strong either against moving aliens. These guys basically take over the roll of anti structure weapons?
Seige things: Everyone I've played with so far doesn't seem to understand how to use them. What do you do with these?
Little Robot guy: He can be ordered around by the comm and he builds for the comm? I'm guessing generally it's best to leave this guy alone until you really need that 1 extra marine in the field, and you're not so worried about in base defense any more?
Commander building practices: In NS, as a commander you would have a build placement plan for every map, and the general idea of it was to get the IP portals central, and get everything else against a wall, so if an alien tried to ninja something any spawning marine could take it out while it's back was facing. I haven't seen any commanders in NS2 do this yet. Is this just something that hasn't carried over in the realm of public knowledge, or is there some reason why it's been phased out as a practice?
Build order: What is conventional as "best" right now. We used to either rush phase gate, or rush upgrades (starting with armor 1 so skulks took 1 extra bite). All the aliens vs marines interactions seem slightly different. What's are the current build orders experienced comms are going for? What's the logic behind them? Phase gate is now a later teir tech item isn't it? Has that changed the PG rush significantly? Basically, what is the metagame on the marine's side right now.
<b>Aliens:</b>
Gorges: They used to be useless aside from building res nozzles and bilebombing. Res nozzles are now the commanders job. I don't understand how gorges work anymore. Their spike things are incredibly weak (and they cost res too?), I don't understand why you would ever want a gorge on your team if you didn't need something bile bombed.
Fade Ability 2: How do you use this? I haven't seen it utilized in a useful way yet.
Alien Commander Meta Game: I don't have a basis of knowledge to build on in this case. It seems obvious that alien comms should get resource nodes and upgrades as quickly as possible. Defenses are useful to some degree... but I'm guessing there's a tendency towards overuse of static defense on the pubs right now. What do good players view as the important bullet points for the alien comm? What is the logic behind those things?
Cysts: Do they have any useful purpose?
<b>Marines:</b>
Power nozzle things: I understand these power buildings in the room they are in? Obviously they also turn the lights on. What do they cost for the comm to drop them? From the games I've played so far it seems like most commanders prioritize them... Are they required to run nearby extractors? It seems to me, if they have some expense attached to them, and it's an area you don't intend to build other things, it might be worth it to skip them? Is this adviseable or not, and why/why not?
Shotguns: The shotgun feels a little anemic compared to NS1. The spread feels very wide so it's not very useful long range, and it doesn't really seem like you generally can 1-shot a skulk any more. I do notice, as an alien, they work well with other AR marines in the area to do that bit of extra damage that the shotgun can't manage in the single shot. Am I correct in the observation that shotguns and grenade launchers aren't quite the potent anti-structure weapons they used to be?
FlameThrowers: I'm noticing they're not completely useless against lifeforms, but they don't seem incredibly strong either against moving aliens. These guys basically take over the roll of anti structure weapons?
Seige things: Everyone I've played with so far doesn't seem to understand how to use them. What do you do with these?
Little Robot guy: He can be ordered around by the comm and he builds for the comm? I'm guessing generally it's best to leave this guy alone until you really need that 1 extra marine in the field, and you're not so worried about in base defense any more?
Commander building practices: In NS, as a commander you would have a build placement plan for every map, and the general idea of it was to get the IP portals central, and get everything else against a wall, so if an alien tried to ninja something any spawning marine could take it out while it's back was facing. I haven't seen any commanders in NS2 do this yet. Is this just something that hasn't carried over in the realm of public knowledge, or is there some reason why it's been phased out as a practice?
Build order: What is conventional as "best" right now. We used to either rush phase gate, or rush upgrades (starting with armor 1 so skulks took 1 extra bite). All the aliens vs marines interactions seem slightly different. What's are the current build orders experienced comms are going for? What's the logic behind them? Phase gate is now a later teir tech item isn't it? Has that changed the PG rush significantly? Basically, what is the metagame on the marine's side right now.
<b>Aliens:</b>
Gorges: They used to be useless aside from building res nozzles and bilebombing. Res nozzles are now the commanders job. I don't understand how gorges work anymore. Their spike things are incredibly weak (and they cost res too?), I don't understand why you would ever want a gorge on your team if you didn't need something bile bombed.
Fade Ability 2: How do you use this? I haven't seen it utilized in a useful way yet.
Alien Commander Meta Game: I don't have a basis of knowledge to build on in this case. It seems obvious that alien comms should get resource nodes and upgrades as quickly as possible. Defenses are useful to some degree... but I'm guessing there's a tendency towards overuse of static defense on the pubs right now. What do good players view as the important bullet points for the alien comm? What is the logic behind those things?
Cysts: Do they have any useful purpose?
Comments
Shotguns do NOT have a wide range, bejeebus those things are murder! Skulks get 1-shotted all the time in NS2. And Grenade Launchers are also absurdly effective. I shudder to think that they were somehow more powerful in NS1! :P
Flamethrowers need some work. They reduce the energy regen by 80% on burning aliens and do massive damage against cysts, and possibly other structures.
The MAC automatically repairs things, as well as Marine armor. He's a handy fella.
Gorges are, I have heard, not as useful as in NS1. Nonetheless, Clog walls and Hydras do a good job of giving aliens enough time to come to the aid of an embattled locale, and Bile Bomb is amazingly useful. While unlikely to actually kill a marine, hydras can delay them, in particular if the gorge is there to heal them.
I'm not the guy to ask for walls of text on Commandering.
Cysts spread infestation, and Alien structures require infestation or they degrade and die. Cysts must link back to a hive to stay alive themselves. Mature cysts can be selected and ruptured for a small cost by the Commander to blind marines nearby. The cyst then regrows and re-matures after a period.
Yeah, GL's are beastly... I was simply referring to the fact that they don't seem as useful for taking out resource nodes and defensive structures as they used to, they are VERY VERY useful for tearing to shreds many many aliens trying to attack your buddies.
Shotguns: How do you recommend using them personally? In NS1 they were basically the rambo weapon. You'd give shotguns to the guys who were going to run off and do their own thing. It made skulks not a real threat, lerks were heavily threatened by these lone wolfs (because they were unexpected places) and it was the best weapon for taking down resource nozzles. In NS2 it seems different. Aliens don't seem as intimidated by the solo shotgunner. Resource nozzles don't mind being shottied quite as much. Do you take pot shots at aliens off in the distance with your shotty? (you would never used to do this in NS1). Is it best, with a shotty, to stick closely with the crew and let the AR marines play rambo instead?
Just haven't carried over into public gaming yet. Smart base building is seen in competitive all the time though. Clean lines of fire in the base -> things are easier for everyone.
<!--quoteo(post=2003404:date=Nov 1 2012, 12:04 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 1 2012, 12:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2003404"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Build order: What is conventional as "best" right now. We used to either rush phase gate, or rush upgrades (starting with armor 1 so skulks took 1 extra bite). All the aliens vs marines interactions seem slightly different. What's are the current build orders experienced comms are going for? What's the logic behind them? Phase gate is now a later teir tech item isn't it? Has that changed the PG rush significantly? Basically, what is the metagame on the marine's side right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Phase gates and mines are the best marine early game tech. Phase gates for map control, mines for allowing more extending and less defending. You do need an armory (10 tres) for observatory so phase gates come a tiny bit later, but still, early gates are your friend. Then use PGs for pressure and cappers for RTs. Business as usual ;)
Next upgrades are trickier and much depend on map and situation. Shottys are good in the hand of seasoned players, W/A upgrades from arms lab are nice and you need to upgrade that armory at some point too. Advanced armory + 2nd CC open up proto lab which allows jetpacks. Jetpacks > exos. Upgrades are pretty cheap but take ages to get. Oh, and GL upgrade from Adv. Armory takes 20 sec and 20 tres, so once you get jetpacks up you might, at the lates, want to get GLs also.
Note that you always beacon to the closest built CC you have, so you might want to have obs at 2nd tech point in addition to all the other stuff.
Arms lab upgrades: I'd generally go for weapon level first. Once skulks get close, they practically autohit and there is no knockback. That extra damage is more important. Might change in a future patch though, as the skulk has been lately changed around a lot. Currently though I'd say weapon 2 and then armor 1. You need armor 1 for fades really, and those come out a bit late and are rarer these days.
Exos and all robotics path tech are countered easily by Bile Bomb, which is an early and crucial alien upgrade. ARCs are mobile sieges that need to be deployed. Once deployed, they don't move until undeployed and have no armour (so are easier to kill). MACs are small welder robots that repair stuff, freeing your marines to kill stuff. Pretty usefull and only cost 5 tres a pop. Then again, all robotics tech is pretty much "oh I have extra moneys and dont know where to spend".
You can get a pretty good idea of how the competitive matches go from watching streams. The spectate mode is really good for seeing build paths, as are the round statistics at ns2stats.org. You can catch quality streams at twitch.tv/blindns2
Shotguns- Definitely more powerful than in NS1. You can fight off 2-3 skulks with a steady hand and a shotty. Not great at destroying structures though, so swap to the switchaxe or leave that up to your teammates with the rifles.
Flamethrowers- Primarily a support weapon and anti-structure. Saps energy, does DoT and deals decent damage against aliens.
ARCs- Mobile versions of the NS1 siege turret. Still require scanning/spotting to fire, and positioning them right is important (to reduce time deploying/turning the turret).
MACs- An extra Marine effectively, with a welder. Good for sending along with groups to keep their armor maxed out, doing sneaky sub-base builds while your Marines are keeping the Kharaa attention elsewere, repairing lightly damaged stuff from base-rushes automatically, or sending over to repair a power node that was chomped down somewhere. Very handy units, especially with the EMP upgrade (not that EMP does anything to organics, but they had to name it SOMETHING).
Building practices and order have yet to develop/carry over. There are a number of viable builds still (think NS1 before the JP/HMG rush became king). Placement all over is likely just people not building strategically. Turrets have a limited field of effect now, and a limit per-room. PG rushes still happen, but with the ability to chomp down the power node OR the PG, it's easier to defend/counter against a ninja.
Gorges- Ranged assist (spit helps obscure vision on a hit), Clogs allow you to close off routes to Marines, and Hydras (while complete CRAP on their own) are effective early-warning systems or force multipliers for any aliens in the room. They also heal structures (as usual), help new buildings grow faster with healspray, and can seriously increase Kharaa lifespan in combat with healspray-spamming. Plus it's fun to bellyslide around with shift. Plus bilebomb once it's evolved. I'm still hoping that they get Web back at some point.
Cysts- These spread the Infestation, which is needed to build structures (aside from res nodes and a limited selection of others). Also Kharaa run faster on infestation, and regen health faster as well. Supposedly dropped Marine weapons disappear more quickly on infestation as well. Plus the Cyst Rupture ability and spike wall, allowing the Khammander to more directly assist her team in combat. So fairly useful/necessary.
Not sure how damage types were implemented in NS1, if at all, but that may have to do with there being any reduction in effectiveness against RTs, though it still only takes a few shots. Again, if we're comparing to NS1, I don't know what to tell you.
[edit] awesome answers so far by the way, thanks! I guess the cone of damage is tighter on the NS2 shotgun than it was in NS then. I had a perception of the opposite, but I hadn't done any testing or anything.
Its pretty useless. L3 marines in NS2 have more armour than NS1, iirc. I think the damage of xeno is also less.
Hopefully they will rework it. I think they are trying to avoid xeno-showers we saw in NS1.