Late Game Marines Too Powerful

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Comments

  • KopikatKopikat Join Date: 2012-09-06 Member: 158170Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2007908:date=Nov 3 2012, 01:44 AM:name=Barisart)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Barisart @ Nov 3 2012, 01:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007908"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure quick onos is real good, but with a bit of voice chat you can down em real easy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Actually, you can't. Which is why most of the competitive matches end in an Alien victory due to five minute Onos.
  • DanielDDanielD Join Date: 2010-11-16 Member: 74960Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2007915:date=Nov 3 2012, 09:53 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 3 2012, 09:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please stop talking about glancing blows like it isn't a huge stealth nerf in disguise:

    <a href="http://i.imgur.com/CkEAk.png" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/CkEAk.png</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    They didn't use the same cone for all 3 damage types, they made the cone wider and added the glancing blows to the new width.
  • TemphageTemphage Join Date: 2009-10-28 Member: 69158Members
    edited November 2012
    The cone may be larger overall, but I'm willing to bet that the 'normal' damage cone shrank in size. If I go to bite a marine, but aim at one of his legs instead of between them, odds are I'm going to do a nerfed amount of damage. Hits that should've counted as full bites in NS1 are giving me this glancing blow garbage.
  • tarquinbbtarquinbb Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166314Members
    edited November 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=2005401:date=Nov 1 2012, 11:51 PM:name=Codeine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Nov 1 2012, 11:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005401"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->These issues have been put to UWE for the last 2 years from beta testers. Its not gonna change, we will have to rely on a popular mod.

    I hope it changes though, when you playing aslong as i or some of the people here you can see the flaws.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    i'm guessing those issues were put to UWE from the <i>minority</i> of beta testers. since the win rate is 50%, there's absolutely no case for buffing alien/nerfing marine. surely you can see this?

    i don't know anything about high level/competitive, but in pubs i see the lurk unit is vastly under utilized. most lurks just sit in the roof spamming the ranged attack... what a total waste - that's like paying 30 res to be a weak-ass marine. you're meant to fly around like a maniac with the dipping and dodging while constantly spraying spores or go in for a bite if you dare, then retreating to regenerate, you can get a bunch of kills - or at least greatly weaken/disrupt the marines - at relatively minimal risk due to mobility.

    that's what i do as lerk and get a 10:1 kdr on pubs (assuming the team balance is decent and not heavily stacked either way)... but i've yet to see anyone else do this in a pub after ~20 hours.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    <!--quoteo(post=2007952:date=Nov 3 2012, 05:38 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 3 2012, 05:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007952"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The cone may be larger overall, but I'm willing to bet that the 'normal' damage cone shrank in size. If I go to bite a marine, but aim at one of his legs instead of between them, odds are I'm going to do a nerfed amount of damage. Hits that should've counted as full bites in NS1 are giving me this glancing blow garbage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The devs stated the 75 damage cone did not change in size when glancing bites was implemented. So unless you are going tp claim they are liars, your point is false. The 2 glancing cones were added on top of the 75 dmg one that IS smaller than it was several builds before. But it was not decreased in size at the time glancing bites were implemented, I'm pretty sure some players even tested this ingame.

    Whether or not the 75 dmg bite cone is too small, that's a different question entirely...I personally have no trouble landing 75 dmg bites most of the time.
  • tarquinbbtarquinbb Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166314Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2007982:date=Nov 3 2012, 11:31 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Nov 3 2012, 11:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007982"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The devs stated the 75 damage cone did not change in size when glancing bites was implemented. So unless you are going tp claim they are liars, your point is false. The 2 glancing cones were added on top of the 75 dmg one that IS smaller than it was several builds before. But it was not decreased in size at the time glancing bites were implemented, I'm pretty sure some players even tested this ingame.

    Whether or not the 75 dmg bite cone is too small, that's a different question entirely...I personally have no trouble landing 75 dmg bites most of the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    i'm in favour of glancing actually. it adds a bit of a skill curve to skulk instead of just W+M1. watching a good skulk player (e.g. the guy in the advanced skulk tutorial) is like watching a graceful ballerina, it's an artform.
  • azurescorchazurescorch Join Date: 2012-09-29 Member: 161030Members, Reinforced - Silver
    <!--quoteo(post=2007952:date=Nov 3 2012, 10:38 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 3 2012, 10:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007952"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The cone may be larger overall, but I'm willing to bet that the 'normal' damage cone shrank in size. If I go to bite a marine, but aim at one of his legs instead of between them, odds are I'm going to do a nerfed amount of damage. Hits that should've counted as full bites in NS1 are giving me this glancing blow garbage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    From which build? When I joined aliens were easy mode and dominated without issue, even as a newbie I was slaughtering marines with no effort. Then they made it tiny and it was really hard, although after a while I got use to it and could land the majority anyway. Then if I recall correctly the increased it a bit more, then after that they made it glancing, since if they just reverted it back to how it was when I started playing it'd be overpowered again.

    When Glancing was introduced the 75 damage cone did not change, as other users have already stated. So from that build we got a buff, not a nerf.
  • FunkyFungusFunkyFungus Join Date: 2003-09-09 Member: 20691Members
    i think we can expect a big alien patch in the near future because 2 upgrades are missing and aliens doesn't feel feature complete (web,focus,primal scream, hive teleport... and what not ^^)

    but maybe I'm just dreaming :(

    btw what about frenzy and the other wip upgrades(scaling wise)
  • TemphageTemphage Join Date: 2009-10-28 Member: 69158Members
    They said Focus wouldn't be returning.

    You know, the only upgrade aliens ever had to boost their damage output to counter armor upgrades.
  • PsympleJesterPsympleJester Join Date: 2008-04-06 Member: 64024Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2008068:date=Nov 3 2012, 01:17 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 3 2012, 01:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008068"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They said Focus wouldn't be returning.

    You know, the only upgrade aliens ever had to boost their damage output to counter armor upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You forgot primal scream (enzyme cloud) its now a 1 hive ability.
  • XaragothXaragoth Join Date: 2012-08-03 Member: 154720Members
    What is needed for Aliens is something on the level of a Exo push. Onos die too quickly to make a dent in most cases.
  • FunkyFungusFunkyFungus Join Date: 2003-09-09 Member: 20691Members
    frenzy= heals alien on kill

    swarm= more damage in packs

    patcht out 20X or maybe eralier




    frenzy might be a bit OP, but swarm on hive 2-3 or like it was on mature whips could make alien mid to late game a bit more fun : /
  • PsympleJesterPsympleJester Join Date: 2008-04-06 Member: 64024Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2008092:date=Nov 3 2012, 01:33 PM:name=Xaragoth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xaragoth @ Nov 3 2012, 01:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008092"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What is needed for Aliens is something on the level of a Exo push. Onos die too quickly to make a dent in most cases.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Not really...
    Onos is fine vs Exo.

    Current problem with aliens is Fade vs Jp.

    If you have 6 skulks + 1 onos vs 6 lmg welders and 1 exo its equal.
    Problem is onos thinking they can attack a dual exo with 5 marines standing behind him and win.
  • unkindunkind Join Date: 2012-02-04 Member: 143563Members
    if aliens do bilebomb umbra spores healspray and skulks killing welders onos killing exos the marines will lose really fast, onos don't overheat, but it's kinda rough making that happen, most people playing aliens atm don't really know what anything does
  • TemphageTemphage Join Date: 2009-10-28 Member: 69158Members
    Onos also needs siege damage vs. structures.

    They were ALL attacking us in one direction, so myself and another Onos went to go hit their main base.

    We were greeted by a Robotics Factory wedged in one of exactly two entrances, with an army of MACs repairing it on the other side. We couldn't break through with our lousy 200 damage strikes, eventually some guy with a grenade launcher showed up and made is leave.
  • arnyboy87arnyboy87 Join Date: 2012-08-13 Member: 155551Members
    If onos done anymore than 200 damage it would be op 200 is just right I think
  • GorgenapperGorgenapper Join Date: 2012-09-05 Member: 157916Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=2007976:date=Nov 3 2012, 06:26 AM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 3 2012, 06:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007976"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i don't know anything about high level/competitive, but in pubs i see the lurk unit is vastly under utilized. most lurks just sit in the roof spamming the ranged attack... what a total waste - that's like paying 30 res to be a weak-ass marine. you're meant to fly around like a maniac with the dipping and dodging while constantly spraying spores or go in for a bite if you dare, then retreating to regenerate, you can get a bunch of kills - or at least greatly weaken/disrupt the marines - at relatively minimal risk due to mobility.

    that's what i do as lerk and get a 10:1 kdr on pubs (assuming the team balance is decent and not heavily stacked either way)... but i've yet to see anyone else do this in a pub after ~20 hours.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The spikes are useful if you know how to use them (and not as an LMG with unlimited ammo). I use spikes mainly for harassment of marines/exos/structures, forcing the marines to temporarily divert their attention away from their original objective as 90% of them start rubbernecking around looking for me. I occasionally get lucky and kill retreating marines or exos, or even take a power node down to the point where it starts flashing, but that's about it.

    But for me... lerk gas is very important for two reasons - it acts as an area-effect counter to marines pushing into the hive, and it provides cover for the other aliens. Even with medpack spam, the marines still arrive at the hive with greatly reduced or zero armor, making them easy pickings. Occasionally a marine push will falter and fall back to the nearest armory. Welder marines (for the exos) die if they remain by the side of their exo, once again necessitating medpacks or general confusion as the marines run back to the armory, leaving the exos alone. Of course, a disciplined marine push with medpack support will run through lerk spores without falling back, but at the very least you'll have reduced their health/armor and blinded them.

    The ability for spores to obscure marine vision cannot be overestimated, it may help the lerk avoid getting shot in the face, but I consider it more of a team buff - it blinds marines AND it eats at their health and armor, all in an area effect package. Lone marines are easy to kill, but packs of marines are a different story and I look for any ways to hit them all at once (stomp, bile, spores...even xeno).

    The KDR of a good lerk is fine and dandy, but my way of thinking as a lerk is not how I can get the most kills and least deaths, but how I can use my abilities to help the heavy hitters of the team (fade, onos) out.
  • KopikatKopikat Join Date: 2012-09-06 Member: 158170Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2011298:date=Nov 5 2012, 09:09 AM:name=Gorgenapper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gorgenapper @ Nov 5 2012, 09:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011298"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stuff<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Spores don't damage armor, it bypasses it completely. So a Marine with a0 will die from Spores at the same time an a3 Marine does.
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2007952:date=Nov 3 2012, 04:38 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 3 2012, 04:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007952"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The cone may be larger overall, but I'm willing to bet that the 'normal' damage cone shrank in size.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I'll take that bet. How much are we putting up?
  • ChickenOfWarChickenOfWar Join Date: 2003-04-09 Member: 15352Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2007915:date=Nov 3 2012, 05:53 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 3 2012, 05:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please stop talking about glancing blows like it isn't a huge stealth nerf in disguise:

    <a href="http://i.imgur.com/CkEAk.png" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/CkEAk.png</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It was a buff from what we had before. Your first cone is wrong (the one with only X) and needs to be the size of the "X" cone in the middle graph. Then your graphs are correct.
  • LtDrebinLtDrebin Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167275Members
    So, I don't have anything too terribly useful to add, but what about the launch tournament? It seemed that most games were won by the Aliens. There were some very long games where Aliens won, including that crazy 50+ minute game (Inversion vs Exertus g3 I think) where the Marines had a good advantage for most of the game, but ended up losing. In my noobishness, that game made the Aliens seem unstoppable late game.
  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2011554:date=Nov 5 2012, 03:25 PM:name=LtDrebin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LtDrebin @ Nov 5 2012, 03:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011554"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, I don't have anything too terribly useful to add, but what about the launch tournament? It seemed that most games were won by the Aliens. There were some very long games where Aliens won, including that crazy 50+ minute game (Inversion vs Exertus g3 I think) where the Marines had a good advantage for most of the game, but ended up losing. In my noobishness, that game made the Aliens seem unstoppable late game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Congratulations on an awesome first forum post :)
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2011554:date=Nov 5 2012, 02:25 PM:name=LtDrebin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LtDrebin @ Nov 5 2012, 02:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011554"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, I don't have anything too terribly useful to add, but what about the launch tournament? It seemed that most games were won by the Aliens. There were some very long games where Aliens won, including that crazy 50+ minute game (Inversion vs Exertus g3 I think) where the Marines had a good advantage for most of the game, but ended up losing. In my noobishness, that game made the Aliens seem unstoppable late game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Welcome, No. 167,275
  • LtDrebinLtDrebin Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167275Members
    Heh, I've actually been following NS2 development for a very long time, but I never played the beta. Anyway, Onos just seem nigh-unstoppable in a good team. Fades too. In my stream-viewing experience, I've only seen a handful of Fade deaths.

    With the extreme mobility of individual Alien units (Marines can move to certain areas of the map fast with PG, but Aliens are so damn fast), Aliens can adopt a very strong guerrilla style that Marines have difficulty countering. Once a mistake is made, they can then collapse and annihilate an overextended Marine or Exo.

    I have the game, but I haven't played it yet (damn you, Guild Wars...), but I've been watching beta development for a long time now, so all of my opinions are formed based on watching some very good players.

    I do agree with some previous posts about Marines instantly getting 3/3 upgrades on spawn and Aliens respawning as the weakest of the weak. That should be tweaked, if not for game balance, then for enjoyment.
  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2008068:date=Nov 3 2012, 08:17 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 3 2012, 08:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008068"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They said Focus wouldn't be returning.

    You know, the only upgrade aliens ever had to boost their damage output to counter armor upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Focus decreased damage output. It worked well because it also decreased the number of successful hits you had to sink in order to make a kill. Paired with the fairly high knockback in NS1 this resulted in the ability to more easily do higher damage to marines in an equal amount of time, but it wasn't the universal buff people seem to claim it was. There were situations where focus was not preferable. It was really just the late game JP wars where focus was absolutely vital. Frankly, I don't really understand how people are killing good JP players in NS2.
  • KopikatKopikat Join Date: 2012-09-06 Member: 158170Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2011622:date=Nov 5 2012, 01:21 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 5 2012, 01:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011622"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Focus decreased damage output. It worked well because it also decreased the number of successful hits you had to sink in order to make a kill. Paired with the fairly high knockback in NS1 this resulted in the ability to more easily do higher damage to marines in an equal amount of time, but it wasn't the universal buff people seem to claim it was. There were situations where focus was not preferable. It was really just the late game JP wars where focus was absolutely vital. Frankly, I don't really understand how people are killing good JP players in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    Wack hit detection, probably. I'll be five feet off the ground and a Skulk running on the ground can hit me for some reason.
  • SixtyWattManSixtyWattMan Join Date: 2004-09-05 Member: 31404Members
    JPs are nowhere near as good as they were in NS1 is why.
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