Why don't marines have to build or repair power nodes?
NoJustice37
Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 165852Members
Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 165852Members
Simple question. Aliens must create cysts and hives to be able to create structures. Why do marines have the luxury of having their power source set up for them? Also, taking down a power node seems so underwhelming when one marine can repair it in 1/10 the time it takes a skulk to chew it apart. No wonder I see so many aliens not even bother with them.
Comments
12 seconds with a welder. That's like, no time at all.
The whole power node / infestation thing just reeks of wasted potential. Power should limit marines more and be a more exciting dynamic, and infestation should benefit aliens more and allow them to combat marine expansion more effectively.
Power nodes don't even cost anything.
Imagine if only MACs could build power nodes, and rooms without power nodes were dingy, dark, with much worse lighting than we have now. Marines in an area without power would be completely on their own - no sensor sweeps or item drops.
Rooms with infestation would be worse. Infestation would clog the power slot, forcing marines to hack away at it to free it to slot one in. The infestation would mess with the lighting making the place atmospheric as ****. Flickering lights, lots of dark corners... leaving the marines very vulnerable.
I'm tired of hive rooms being lit up like a hospital because there's no power node to destroy, and nobody will ever build one there.
And arguing equality isn't really worth the argument since there is an intentional separation between sides.
The alien commander, at least from all I've seen has bone wall to support. That's it. Not to mention the alien defensive structures are a joke. I understand the assymetric thing, I do. I played starcraft. I played AvP. However, in those games, your disadvantages were offset by advantages. The aliens in AvP though having the least health in the game and being exclusively melee, were the fastest (easily twice the speed of a skulk in this game WITH celerity), could kill in 1-3 hits, could climb walls and ceilings, and did slight splash damage when killed at close range.
Don't see many advatages to the aliens.
Aliens have a bit higher learning curve just because it's not a typical FPS when you play as an alien, but when 2 teams face off it's not completely one-sided, and I've never seen a marine win that can be blamed on any of those things. The sides are different for a reason, and I'm not saying the game is perfectly balanced, but it's not easy to balance, and you can't balance the game by looking at power nodes and making them the same for both sides, or making damage the same for both sides, or making res costs the same for both sides.
As a long NS2 beta test player, and a marine commander since 2003, the most frustrating experience were just the 7 secs base rush with 7 skulks on one power node at some rounds, at which marines followed me so well and just got tried to expand, research everything. That happened frequently few builds ago. Therefore UWE reduced repair time, and increased it again since the last build before the release(or 2nd last patch), that means, it's still getting handled. But i cannot still understand why you said why don't marines have to build or repair power nodes. Because they do, and it's taking damn long time.
Please think about this now, does it take even 1.2 secs to put one cyst? Or does it take more than 5 secs to take whole room with cysts? No. Then why are you only arguing with power node, which already takes lots of time to build, and repair?
Marines don't lose their whole base when the power node is destroyed. Except for the IPs if you needed to spawn help, and the darkness, it's hardly the end of the world if it got lost. In fact I don't think I've ever seen the node get destroyed. The node is so strong you might as well just hit the command chair instead.
The power node does not take that long to be destroyed, we must be playing a different game. There's a huge advantage to destroying it over hitting a command chair. In most cases if you are hitting an extra marine base, you go for the phase gate then power. Unless you have an Onos or two you can just take out the power if they don't respond fast enough.
You also mentioned 90 seconds to repair nodes which is a huge exaggeration. I just tested it and it's around 32 seconds as a solo marine, but really a marine should always have a buddy or three with him. Two repair while one guards.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The power node does not take that long to be destroyed, we must be playing a different game. There's a huge advantage to destroying it over hitting a command chair. In most cases if you are hitting an extra marine base, you go for the phase gate then power. Unless you have an Onos or two you can just take out the power if they don't respond fast enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The words were "DO THE ALIENS LOSE THEIR WHOLE BASE". We aren't talking about hitting some bull###### extraneous extension of the marine expansion. The only thing that is ever at the second tech point is a phase gate, an RT, a command chair, and I've seen maybe the odd IP or armory.
There is nothing vital there. There is never anything vital there. We aren't talking about knocking out the crappy little outpost they have there, we're talking about their main base, and if you're hitting that, you go for the chair to end the game, not the power node.
And for the record? If the aliens lose an upgrade structure they have to rebuild it <b>and then re-research the upgrade</b>. We're going to moan that the poor marines have life so rough with their W3/A3 upgrades that they can get on one tech point because you could knock out their power?
The node should be weaker, and marines should be punished for letting it get destroyed. The marines have their hand held in this game everywhere I look. They get cannons that can shoot through walls, teleportation across the map, they can rescue dropped guns for free upgrades, they don't have to expand to get most of their tech, they get motion sensors and sensor sweeps, they get free power nodes, they get the maps lit up like the light side of the ###### moon, they get free ammo, health, and armor repairs nearly instantly from an armory... god forbid they have a mechanic in this game that is difficult and requires them to pay attention to.
The words were "DO THE ALIENS LOSE THEIR WHOLE BASE". We aren't talking about hitting some bull###### extraneous extension of the marine expansion. The only thing that is ever at the second tech point is a phase gate, an RT, a command chair, and I've seen maybe the odd IP or armory.
There is nothing vital there. There is never anything vital there. We aren't talking about knocking out the crappy little outpost they have there, we're talking about their main base, and if you're hitting that, you go for the chair to end the game, not the power node.
And for the record? If the aliens lose an upgrade structure they have to rebuild it <b>and then re-research the upgrade</b>. We're going to moan that the poor marines have life so rough with their W3/A3 upgrades that they can get on one tech point because you could knock out their power?
The node should be weaker, and marines should be punished for letting it get destroyed. The marines have their hand held in this game everywhere I look. They get cannons that can shoot through walls, teleportation across the map, they can rescue dropped guns for free upgrades, they don't have to expand to get most of their tech, they get motion sensors and sensor sweeps, they get free power nodes, they get the maps lit up like the light side of the ###### moon, they get free ammo, health, and armor repairs nearly instantly from an armory... god forbid they have a mechanic in this game that is difficult and requires them to pay attention to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry about the 90 second comment, I now see it was 6john who said that.
Although I don't see how there is nothing vital in a marine outpost. It's generally there to allow Exo's, deny Aliens a hive spot or allow quick travel to important choke points.
Many times in beta I saw people going for the power node because it shuts down spawning. In games now with many new players, the marine turtle is hard to break without the power going down. You mention wanting more interaction with infestation and power nodes but their limited team size probably lead them to some of those decisions as I'm sure you know...
Part of the issue with marines feeling overpowered right now is the large amount of new players. Many factors allow them to turtle easier, but the biggest is that most don't understand alien tactics. It takes 16 seconds as a single Onos to take the power down. With 2 Onos and a Gorge the power is down EXTREMELY fast.
but you lose resources because the extractor is inactive... and it takes a long time to repair, seems like at least 20 seconds. not to mention the fact that a marine was forced to deal with it, that's one less marine to worry about for a while - maybe even 2 marines because that lone marine effectively has his pants down while repairing..
You have lots of good ideas on ways to make aliens more interesting, so it's a shame you say ridiculous things like "I've never seen the node get destroyed" which everyone knows isn't true and makes people ignore your posts.
A destroyed power node takes an agonising long time to 'E' rebuild, if 12 seconds is correct then 'E' rebuild is 24 seconds. This will force some marines who wouldn't have bought welders to spend 5 p.res to get one, which limits their structure killing ability (axe lost) and so they can't buy as many weapons.
Power node assassination in main base shuts it down completely.
IF aliens have spare breathing room, killing all available power nodes will slow down marine expansion. Early game, when no strategic advantage has been gained and time is of the essence, power nodes should be ignored in lieu of combat. But when front lines have solidifed, kill those power nodes to slow the marines down.
Power nodes create weaknesses in forward bases. The optimal area of the room (e.g. open spaces) for structures may just happen to NOT have the power node there, forcing marines to split attention.
E.g. is Terminal in docking, where the power node is more exposed at the exit and not the huge open area in the rear. Or in docking? hive in Drill, where the power node is next to an entrance instead of further in.
Power nodes overall are a limitation to marines that they must defend. They are also restricted to IPs around tech points.
NS1 marines could build command chairs ANYWHERE, and did not need power to function at all. Structures just worked, with the exception of the turret & turret factory.
Power node can be destroyed and if an attack on a node fails, the marines need to repair or the next attack might just finish it off.
<i>And before you start and flame this post I know it doens't alway happen like I discribed and that situation might not even happen in some round, it was an example, so please, Just dont :)</i>
If this were true<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/images/news/PostLaunch1/WinLoss.jpg" target="_blank"> this graph</a> would look different.
That is an old graph you have got you're self there.
Try this website for more up to date infomation on the game <a href="http://ns2stats.org/" target="_blank">NS2 Stats</a>
Aliens have a bit higher learning curve just because it's not a typical FPS when you play as an alien, but when 2 teams face off it's not completely one-sided, and I've never seen a marine win that can be blamed on any of those things. The sides are different for a reason, and I'm not saying the game is perfectly balanced, but it's not easy to balance, and you can't balance the game by looking at power nodes and making them the same for both sides, or making damage the same for both sides, or making res costs the same for both sides.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i agree. both sides have their own play styles and if you play them right you are sure to win. as of right now there can be improvements to balancing but i am completely happy with it because i have seen the alien team play well and excel and the same with the marine team.
...2 days is old? <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2012/11/post_launch_post_mortem" target="_blank">Hmm.</a>
Because a lot of the vets like myself have spent over 90% of our recent game time playing aliens to try to help and not be part of the noob stomp. So we do manage a few early game rush victories or occasionally we end up stacking aliens (poor marines). Also there has been much discussion about why statistics dont tell the story by themselves (heck I would not have a job if they did).
The whole economy issues with aliens needing cysts is further compounded by marines not having to pay to repair nodes.
I put power node chomping in same league as cyst sniping...but when marines had to buy new power nodes they cried poor.
Marines dont have to re-research after aliens destroying an arms lab but aliens do with any of their upgrade structures.
The reason marines seem to have it so easy to turtle is that the one area that shut down those forward bases is easily repaired for 0 cost.
So the one target aliens are meant to hit has 0 impact on marine economy, great....meanwhile marines can go and destroy cysts that impact alien economy and if not replaced kill buildings off losing more res.
This means that marines can continue to tech up a lot faster (and disproportionately (IMO) to the alien tech if the games in the balance.
Aliens should not need to hold almost every node to be able to tech up at similar rate to marine s(currently thats the case...especially if marines are smart and sniping the alien upgrades and cysts).
Any mistake aliens make is punished heavily, yet every mistake marines make has a soft landing....heck even the talk about ejection seat in exo (means after you kill the exo you now have to kill the marine that was inside....) so does this mean a skulk will pop out of a dead onos now?
Which is functioning as designed...it can take 2-3 onos to take out a power node late game against a3w3 marines....without this achilles heal aliens would take even longer to finish off the turtling marines.
done
Sorry but power nodes shutting down a room as functioning as designed...the fact it does not cost to repair is balance breaking (illustrated by the fact that aliens need to hold almost all res nodes to be able to tech up at a similar rate to marines in game) when cysts are.
A marine team can impact alien economy by destroying cysts, sniping chambers etc. which costs res and research time.
I though that forcing a welder to repair nodes was a decent off set but they have now allowed anyone to repair them meaning there is no economy impact at all.
Heck most marines dont buy welders at all....sad really as I though UWE started off down the right path for a while with the nodes.
Because god forbid they have to spend their p.res on anything besides their precious shutgern wupon.
Evident by the amount of marine tears during that patch.
Yes, like I said, old graph. that was build 227.
Also like I said 'Try this website for more up to date infomation on the game <a href="http://ns2stats.org/" target="_blank">NS2 Stats</a>' - Has build 228 graph, Hmm.
And aliens can build in powered rooms. Marines cannot build on infestation, and they move slower. Kharra can even just cyst into a human base, denying build locations.
But since release I have played marines about 3 times...aliens about 15...I have watched a lot of other experienced Beta players doing teh same. As such aliens have won games that had team been balanced on skill we would have lost.
Sushia11, if the khamm can afford to cyst into your base you have already lost..those cysts are not free...and as mentioned power nodes are designed to be the weak point..it was a way to try to help reduce turtling.
Also like I said 'Try this website for more up to date infomation on the game <a href="http://ns2stats.org/" target="_blank">NS2 Stats</a>' - Has build 228 graph, Hmm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If up-to-date stats had anything to do with the context of my statement I would certainly grab a graph from within the past hour there. My only point was that if <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=123295&view=findpost&p=2008727" target="_blank">"marines [are] far and away superior to the aliens"</a> then the graph, or any graph from any game ever played in the history of NS2 since launch, would read 100% Marines 0% Aliens, or something extremely similar. I chose to take the graph that UWE posted 2 days ago specifically showing how even it is.
Ehm...if more marines use welder, the powernode is repaired in a second.
But if alien Cysts are broken, only alien commander can replace them, if he is out of res, there is no way to replace them...