i'm in favour of the visual pollution / clutter, as long as there are certain settings enforced for everyone... for example you can't do a UT2004 and turn all the textures into 16bit and force playermodels to be glowing 'debug' models.
i feel that stealth and eagle eyes are two important skills which add depth to the game. i don't see any reason to remove that.
i don't think it's meant to be like quake live or TF2, where it's all about movement and aim - in those games it's obviously detrimental and frustrating to have visual pollution.
As Bacillus said, if it's not interesting to watch despite removing irrelevant visuals and negative gameplay features; then why is anyone watching it currently?
For the sake of NS2 there would have to be something of any equivalence to skill behind all the spit and bile on your screen. A rational person would just cut out the irrelevant and mostly negative fluff if making a skillful game was their goal.
Ns2 will only become an E sport when some players can quit their day job and actually make money by competing, and in order to get that you need companies willing to sponsor tournaments/players, and in order to get that you need to attract a large audience by having a game that is fun to watch
NS2's has what it takes from a spectator point of view ... but its the gameplay that is selling itself short. Currently i would rather watch paint dry than another competitive game of NS2
NS2 is probably the closest any game has ever gotten to being perfect for E-sports.
Filled to the brim with Strategy? Check Fast paced action? Check Requires high personal player skill? Check Teamwork is important? Holy heck CHECK! Is entertaining when stream casted? Check
What more could ya want? Strayan walking around in a bikini between rounds?
<!--quoteo(post=2009641:date=Nov 4 2012, 04:07 PM:name=Dictator93)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dictator93 @ Nov 4 2012, 04:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009641"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I consider some of the visual clutter part of the gameplay. Like purposely limiting vision and whatnot. Idk.. guess I am weird or something<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nobody blames you for liking the clutter, but in vast majority of cases it's bad for the competetive part of the game (which happens to be what this thread is about). From comp play viewpoint the visuals need to be build to support the core gameplay, which isn't happening in NS2 all the way.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not every game needs to be a series of grey blocks with attack and movement values slapping eachother<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Right now there are probably 3 games that prioritize gameplay mechanics over the visual whoa-factor. Those games happen to be DotA2, Stacraft 2 and LoL, the 3 major PC esports. And this doesn't even mean the games can't look awesome, it just means the gameplay mechanics aren't designed around visual clutter.
<!--quoteo(post=2009682:date=Nov 4 2012, 04:33 PM:name=Sagan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sagan @ Nov 4 2012, 04:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009682"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What more could ya want? Strayan walking around in a bikini between rounds?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> More like clopping around... (Is this starting to become tiresome yet?)
<!--quoteo(post=2009683:date=Nov 4 2012, 04:34 PM:name=Onii-chan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Onii-chan @ Nov 4 2012, 04:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009683"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If competitive NS2 looked like this, I'd stop watching it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not even comp Q3 looks like that. The wonderful thing about Q3 visuals is that they're not involved too strongly in gameplay, so you can let the players focus on the essential and still let the spectators have all the visual candy without messing up the experience for either one.
It's kind of awkward/sad to say, but the truth is NS2 really only has a shot at amateur, small size e-sports. There's a real lack of clarity in the design of the game, with glimpses of great mechanics/potential mixed in with just as much stuff aimed at casualising the game and providing an immersive experience. This, in my opinion is what will kill NS2 as an esport.
It doesn't have enough solid mechanic appeal to create something that draws views the same way as quake, or sc2. At the same time, it isn't 'casual' enough to be able drive the same kind of popularity LoL enjoys.
At the end of the day, in order to have a serious shot at e-sports NS2 needs a wider audience, which means more cash (views/sponsorship etc.), and cash fuels a larger scene. Whether they get view appeal through great gameplay (quake) or bandwagon (LoL), it doesn't exactly matter in the context of e-sport potential.
*edit* I also wanted to add, NS2 brings FPS/RTS interaction to the table. The way the RTS side and metagame is faring right now, the game isn't exactly maximising the potential appeal of this unique draw.
Replays are the single biggest thing missing atm for competition.
As for making the games look exciting that's almost entirely the caster's responsibility. As more games are played and the casters get more experience they should start to get more creative with how the can make the games look. Even in SC2 if you compare GSL games (which has a dedicated observer who is considered the best observer in the game) to foreign tournaments that force a caster to observe or have an inexperienced observer (WCS Asia 2012 had one of the chinese casters doing the obs for all streams) there is a world of difference, and sometimes it can make a game between two top players still look like boring garbage. First person spec and other tools would definitely help though
<!--quoteo(post=2009685:date=Nov 4 2012, 03:39 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Nov 4 2012, 03:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009685"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nobody blames you for liking the clutter, but in vast majority of cases it's bad for the competetive part of the game (which happens to be what this thread is about). From comp play viewpoint the visuals need to be build to support the core gameplay, which isn't happening in NS2 all the way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Frankly I think that's more to do with the "core" competitive scene's massive hardon for old school nostalgia (which is why EVERY GAME MUST HAVE BHOP) and a desire to only play games that play to their strengths (twitch FPS games, RTS games that are built around high APM) and refusal to adapt to anything new.
Competitive FPS E-sports started with Quake (or Unreal or something I don't know), so they've been using that as the de facto standard. The pros are good at Quake and Quake-style gameplay, so they're only going to care about games that they can monopolize their skill in.
If Tribes had innovated e-sports, I'm sure they'd all be moaning about games not having combined arms and broad strategic teamwork... but all the money in e-sports is tied up in games that really haven't changed for years and years.
Only an idiot would say that being able to overcome visual and audio noise and still do well isn't a skill in itself, but why are such features not "e-sports"? Because "e-sports" has come to mean "how fast you are on the mouse" before anything else. Second would be how well you can use whatever movement gimmick the game includes, but that's besides the point. The e-sports community has been basically brainwashed into believing that competition only exists if some sort of sterile game world like... well like that picture above highlights.
<!--quoteo(post=2009698:date=Nov 5 2012, 02:55 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 5 2012, 02:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009698"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Frankly I think that's more to do with the "core" competitive scene's massive hardon for old school nostalgia (which is why EVERY GAME MUST HAVE BHOP) and a desire to only play games that play to their strengths (twitch FPS games, RTS games that are built around high APM) and refusal to adapt to anything new.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What? *rubs eyes* <b>sports</b> - a form of competitive activity. People watch e-sports, because they enjoy watching players of much higher skill doing amazing things.
Please propose how you intend to skill index competitive mud slinging.
<!--quoteo(post=2009701:date=Nov 4 2012, 04:04 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 4 2012, 04:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009701"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What? *rubs eyes* <b>sports</b> - a form of competitive activity. People watch e-sports, because they enjoy watching players of much higher skill doing amazing things.
Please propose how you intend to skill index competitive mud slinging.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What?
Look at how many RTS games came out between Starcraft 1 and Starcraft 2, and Starcraft 1 was still the only one taken seriously. I'm willing to bet if Starcraft 2 came out as a different franchise with a different name it'd have been passed over, while they waited for Starcraft 2. Why? Because it's Starcraft 2.
The e-sports competitive scene is going to stick with what it knows and there's no room in that equation for games that aren't "pure refined skills" because that's what e-sports evolved out of - old-ass games that were fairly simple and straightforward because that's just how games were back then. Why would they deviate from that?
This thread has moaning about visual and audio 'distractions'. But it's part of the game. Why are people feeling some sort of entitlement that in order for them to enjoy a game, it can only be with a total absence of those features? I'm saying it's because the people in the echelons of e-sports are already used to playing games without things like visual obscurement, and thus aren't going to want to change to adapt to a game that has it, and instead deride it as a feature.
I know this isn't competitive, but when people play paintball, do they demand that all the players wear bright red and blue shirts and it can only be played on a football pitch littered with chest-high cover of high-contrast colors? The best paintballing to be had is in a huge arena of varied terrain, with people using all the tricks they can to hide / not be seen / not get shot.
<!--quoteo(post=2009703:date=Nov 5 2012, 03:04 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 5 2012, 03:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009703"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> why did i bother. I forget who the poster was.
<!--quoteo(post=2009705:date=Nov 4 2012, 04:05 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 4 2012, 04:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009705"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why did i bother. I forget who the poster was.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Up yours.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Look at how many RTS games came out between Starcraft 1 and Starcraft 2, and Starcraft 1 was still the only one taken seriously. I'm willing to bet if Starcraft 2 came out as a different franchise with a different name it'd have been passed over, while they waited for Starcraft 2. Why? Because it's Starcraft 2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Starcraft 2 has been passed over in Korea, Koreans are playing LoL and other stuff. People don't often realize something special happened with starcraft 1 and Korea ("StarCraft sold over 9.5 million copies across the globe, with 4.5 million of these being sold in South Korea"). Basically at some point almost every kid in Korea was playing starcraft. That's what allowed a healthy professional scene to emerge. An important factor was that SC1 was running on about any computer.
<!--quoteo(post=2009692:date=Nov 4 2012, 03:44 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Nov 4 2012, 03:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009692"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not even comp Q3 looks like that. The wonderful thing about Q3 visuals is that they're not involved too strongly in gameplay, so you can let the players focus on the essential and still let the spectators have all the visual candy without messing up the experience for either one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why would you want to play NS if it looked like that?
if you want a twitch shooter, you play an established twitch shooter... you don't go "lolz ns has shooting and the graphics can be toned down quite a lot... lets start a competitive ns team".
you play the game because you enjoy the game, and you enjoy the game because it has challenge and depth, and offers something different than other games. then you optimize your graphics to get a competitive edge... ergo if the game is designed to be dark, atmospheric and stealthy, the league admins etc likely won't allow you much freedom with personal brightness/enviromental effects/graphical settings which could harm the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2009316:date=Nov 4 2012, 07:53 AM:name=MinstrelJCF)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MinstrelJCF @ Nov 4 2012, 07:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009316"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Something which hasn't been mentioned but annoys the ###### out of me from a competitive perspective is the noise pollution in this game. Loud annoying ambient sounds all over the place, sound filtering that you can't turn off so sounds from behind objects are distorted, sound getting ###### up when you are low on health.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. The sound in NS2 is some of the worst I've ever heard. My movements sound as though they are coming from across the room and ambient noise and music completely hide the noises which I want to hear: the enemy and my teammates.
<!--quoteo(post=2009308:date=Nov 4 2012, 08:34 AM:name=ktimekiller)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ktimekiller @ Nov 4 2012, 08:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009308"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->TBH, NS2 has absolute no potential without significant overhauling of balance and fundamental change in both Alien and Marine gameplay to mirror that of NS1.
Catering this much to casual is essentially a death sentence in the long run, especially for the competitive scene.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
pretty much this.
charlie made the game way to easy, completely watered-down much of the gameplay elements just to cater to the causal players. At this current state, no way. lets not forget how bad performance of the engine is as well, which doesn't help how bad gameplay works currently. too many bad problems to even think about "esport", maybe in the future when this game develops further more.
<!--quoteo(post=2009693:date=Nov 4 2012, 04:45 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 4 2012, 04:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's kind of awkward/sad to say, but the truth is NS2 really only has a shot at amateur, small size e-sports. There's a real lack of clarity in the design of the game, with glimpses of great mechanics/potential mixed in with just as much stuff aimed at casualising the game and providing an immersive experience. This, in my opinion is what will kill NS2 as an esport.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think it mostly boils down how little alternatives there are. Sometimes you don't need to be awesome, you just have to be better than the rest of your league. I'd like to think NS2 can get the initial audience that way and then carry the momentum to work itself past at least some of the less esportish mechanics.
A lot depends on UWE's willingness and ability to adjust and tackle the issues post release though. A lot of the issues stem from the core mechanics of the game, you have to dig pretty deep to fix the issue itself.
<!--quoteo(post=2009308:date=Nov 4 2012, 08:34 AM:name=ktimekiller)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ktimekiller @ Nov 4 2012, 08:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009308"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Catering this much to casual is essentially a death sentence in the long run, especially for the competitive scene.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> League of Legends is the casual game of MOBA compared to Defense of the Ancients, Counter-Strike is the casual game of FPS compared to Quake Live, and look how much more popular these games are in the e-sport scene.
<!--quoteo(post=2009835:date=Nov 4 2012, 09:49 AM:name=Safewood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Safewood @ Nov 4 2012, 09:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009835"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Counter-Strike is the casual game of FPS compared to Quake Live, and look how much more popular these games are in the e-sport scene.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> not even remotely close to true. CS 1.6 had one of the most established scenes for FPS competitive gaming.
"casual" isn't really the word... NS2 has things that are just blatantly anti-competitive. Onos wars, the lack of real RTS strategy, the lategame balance is off, the jump system is still painfully idiotic, sound is just completely broken and random, no real "direction" for the game as far as concepts / balance are concerned...
I wish we could get an official word on if the developers are even remotely interested in supporting that aspect of the game, just so all the people forming new clans don't waste their time.
<!--quoteo(post=2009308:date=Nov 4 2012, 03:34 AM:name=ktimekiller)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ktimekiller @ Nov 4 2012, 03:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009308"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->TBH, NS2 has absolute no potential without significant overhauling of balance and fundamental change in both Alien and Marine gameplay to mirror that of NS1.
Catering this much to casual is essentially a death sentence in the long run, especially for the competitive scene.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wholeheartedly disagree. Accessability is what makes a game popular and competitive.
Take league of legends as an example. You cant argue that LoL has the biggest competitive scene of any game right now. I think in that world tourney there was something like 260,000 people watching the stream at once on twitch, not including everyone who was basically in the stadium watching live.
How did LoL get this way? It got this way because anyone can run it, anyone can play it, but not just anyone is good enough to be in the competitive scene. Even starcraft has these three golden traits of any competitive game. SC2 will run on almost any PC, just about everyone can crawl their way out of bronze eventually, but it takes a certain type of dedication to really become competitive at the game. This accessability is what made these game so popular. How can you say bringing in new mechanics inspired by the most popular games of today will hurt the NS2 in the long run?
<!--quoteo(post=2009877:date=Nov 4 2012, 10:15 AM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Nov 4 2012, 10:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009877"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wholeheartedly disagree. Accessability is what makes a game popular and competitive.
Take league of legends as an example. You cant argue that LoL has the biggest competitive scene of any game right now. I think in that world tourney there was something like 260,000 people watching the stream at once on twitch, not including everyone who was basically in the stadium watching live.
How did LoL get this way? It got this way because anyone can run it, anyone can play it, but not just anyone is good enough to be in the competitive scene. Even starcraft has these three golden traits of any competitive game. SC2 will run on almost any PC, just about everyone can crawl their way out of bronze eventually, but it takes a certain type of dedication to really become competitive at the game. This accessability is what made these game so popular. How can you say bringing in new mechanics inspired by the most popular games of today will hurt the NS2 in the long run?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> see my post above. it's not that it's casual or accessible (it really isn't). it's unplayable for competitive.
I don't know if it means much, but I've fallen asleep watching a competitive game featured in NS2HD. NS2 has as much e-sport potential as many other games out there. Whether it can actually be a successful spectator e-sport remains to be seen. Because no one cares how good your game is if it's boring as hell to watch.
<!--quoteo(post=2009858:date=Nov 4 2012, 07:06 PM:name=Princess_of_Power)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Princess_of_Power @ Nov 4 2012, 07:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009858"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->not even remotely close to true. CS 1.6 had one of the most established scenes for FPS competitive gaming.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Read my post again. CS and LoL is "casual" compared to to DotA and QL, yet they're much more popular in the e-sports scene.
<!--quoteo(post=2009858:date=Nov 4 2012, 07:06 PM:name=Princess_of_Power)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Princess_of_Power @ Nov 4 2012, 07:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009858"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"casual" isn't really the word... NS2 has things that are just blatantly anti-competitive. Onos wars, the lack of real RTS strategy, the lategame balance is off, the jump system is still painfully idiotic, sound is just completely broken and random, no real "direction" for the game as far as concepts / balance are concerned...
I wish we could get an official word on if the developers are even remotely interested in supporting that aspect of the game, just so all the people forming new clans don't waste their time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's just released. Balancing and polishing takes time, let it brew for a while.
<!--quoteo(post=2009902:date=Nov 4 2012, 10:26 AM:name=Safewood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Safewood @ Nov 4 2012, 10:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009902"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's just released. Balancing and polishing takes time, let it brew for a while.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I guess I'm just extremely frustrated because I feel like we haven't even gotten official word on half of these topics, so I don't know that time will do anything. I do hope that the game does succeed. I would be more comfortable if there was perhaps some kind of "list of things we are aware of and will work on in the future", because it feels like a lot of problems are just being swept under the rug.
<!--quoteo(post=2009883:date=Nov 4 2012, 02:18 PM:name=Princess_of_Power)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Princess_of_Power @ Nov 4 2012, 02:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009883"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->see my post above. it's not that it's casual or accessible (it really isn't). it's unplayable for competitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The potential is there, however. UWE isn't finished working on this game. I think by the time they're done there are going to be many viable tech paths for the aliens (maybe paths you'd choose in response to what the marines are doing, for instance early shotguns/early phase tech).
And I dont think you're giving the current wall jump system enough credit.
<!--quoteo(post=2009914:date=Nov 4 2012, 07:34 PM:name=Princess_of_Power)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Princess_of_Power @ Nov 4 2012, 07:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess I'm just extremely frustrated because I feel like we haven't even gotten official word on half of these topics, so I don't know that time will do anything. I do hope that the game does succeed. I would be more comfortable if there was perhaps some kind of "list of things we are aware of and will work on in the future", because it feels like a lot of problems are just being swept under the rug.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That, I can't disagree with you. I guess they don't got the time to be more interactive with the community as only 9 developers, but something I love Roberts Space Industries for is how closely they work with the community; same goes for Riot Games, however, they're a gigantic team, so that goes without saying.
<!--quoteo(post=2009919:date=Nov 5 2012, 05:36 AM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Nov 5 2012, 05:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009919"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And I dont think you're giving the current wall jump system enough credit.
Watch that and tell me you don't have any room for improvement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> OT: Regarding skulk walljump, the funny thing is that this works only because of a bug, or at the very least, an unintended design goal. It feels buggy, is highly rote and dependant on environment to the extreme (this is on a scale where you put normal walljumping and bhop on the 'normal' side), and is more so unintuitive than bhop.
Presenting that video as proof of depth of movement shows that you don't exactly understand how it, or the intended walljump system works in the first place.
Comments
i feel that stealth and eagle eyes are two important skills which add depth to the game. i don't see any reason to remove that.
i don't think it's meant to be like quake live or TF2, where it's all about movement and aim - in those games it's obviously detrimental and frustrating to have visual pollution.
For the sake of NS2 there would have to be something of any equivalence to skill behind all the spit and bile on your screen. A rational person would just cut out the irrelevant and mostly negative fluff if making a skillful game was their goal.
NS2's has what it takes from a spectator point of view ... but its the gameplay that is selling itself short. Currently i would rather watch paint dry than another competitive game of NS2
NS2 is probably the closest any game has ever gotten to being perfect for E-sports.
Filled to the brim with Strategy? Check
Fast paced action? Check
Requires high personal player skill? Check
Teamwork is important? Holy heck CHECK!
Is entertaining when stream casted? Check
What more could ya want? Strayan walking around in a bikini between rounds?
If competitive NS2 looked like this, I'd stop watching it.
Nobody blames you for liking the clutter, but in vast majority of cases it's bad for the competetive part of the game (which happens to be what this thread is about). From comp play viewpoint the visuals need to be build to support the core gameplay, which isn't happening in NS2 all the way.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not every game needs to be a series of grey blocks with attack and movement values slapping eachother<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right now there are probably 3 games that prioritize gameplay mechanics over the visual whoa-factor. Those games happen to be DotA2, Stacraft 2 and LoL, the 3 major PC esports. And this doesn't even mean the games can't look awesome, it just means the gameplay mechanics aren't designed around visual clutter.
More like clopping around... (Is this starting to become tiresome yet?)
Not even comp Q3 looks like that. The wonderful thing about Q3 visuals is that they're not involved too strongly in gameplay, so you can let the players focus on the essential and still let the spectators have all the visual candy without messing up the experience for either one.
It doesn't have enough solid mechanic appeal to create something that draws views the same way as quake, or sc2. At the same time, it isn't 'casual' enough to be able drive the same kind of popularity LoL enjoys.
At the end of the day, in order to have a serious shot at e-sports NS2 needs a wider audience, which means more cash (views/sponsorship etc.), and cash fuels a larger scene. Whether they get view appeal through great gameplay (quake) or bandwagon (LoL), it doesn't exactly matter in the context of e-sport potential.
*edit*
I also wanted to add, NS2 brings FPS/RTS interaction to the table. The way the RTS side and metagame is faring right now, the game isn't exactly maximising the potential appeal of this unique draw.
As for making the games look exciting that's almost entirely the caster's responsibility. As more games are played and the casters get more experience they should start to get more creative with how the can make the games look. Even in SC2 if you compare GSL games (which has a dedicated observer who is considered the best observer in the game) to foreign tournaments that force a caster to observe or have an inexperienced observer (WCS Asia 2012 had one of the chinese casters doing the obs for all streams) there is a world of difference, and sometimes it can make a game between two top players still look like boring garbage. First person spec and other tools would definitely help though
Frankly I think that's more to do with the "core" competitive scene's massive hardon for old school nostalgia (which is why EVERY GAME MUST HAVE BHOP) and a desire to only play games that play to their strengths (twitch FPS games, RTS games that are built around high APM) and refusal to adapt to anything new.
Competitive FPS E-sports started with Quake (or Unreal or something I don't know), so they've been using that as the de facto standard. The pros are good at Quake and Quake-style gameplay, so they're only going to care about games that they can monopolize their skill in.
If Tribes had innovated e-sports, I'm sure they'd all be moaning about games not having combined arms and broad strategic teamwork... but all the money in e-sports is tied up in games that really haven't changed for years and years.
Only an idiot would say that being able to overcome visual and audio noise and still do well isn't a skill in itself, but why are such features not "e-sports"? Because "e-sports" has come to mean "how fast you are on the mouse" before anything else. Second would be how well you can use whatever movement gimmick the game includes, but that's besides the point. The e-sports community has been basically brainwashed into believing that competition only exists if some sort of sterile game world like... well like that picture above highlights.
What? *rubs eyes*
<b>sports</b> - a form of competitive activity. People watch e-sports, because they enjoy watching players of much higher skill doing amazing things.
Please propose how you intend to skill index competitive mud slinging.
<b>sports</b> - a form of competitive activity. People watch e-sports, because they enjoy watching players of much higher skill doing amazing things.
Please propose how you intend to skill index competitive mud slinging.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What?
Look at how many RTS games came out between Starcraft 1 and Starcraft 2, and Starcraft 1 was still the only one taken seriously. I'm willing to bet if Starcraft 2 came out as a different franchise with a different name it'd have been passed over, while they waited for Starcraft 2. Why? Because it's Starcraft 2.
The e-sports competitive scene is going to stick with what it knows and there's no room in that equation for games that aren't "pure refined skills" because that's what e-sports evolved out of - old-ass games that were fairly simple and straightforward because that's just how games were back then. Why would they deviate from that?
This thread has moaning about visual and audio 'distractions'. But it's part of the game. Why are people feeling some sort of entitlement that in order for them to enjoy a game, it can only be with a total absence of those features? I'm saying it's because the people in the echelons of e-sports are already used to playing games without things like visual obscurement, and thus aren't going to want to change to adapt to a game that has it, and instead deride it as a feature.
I know this isn't competitive, but when people play paintball, do they demand that all the players wear bright red and blue shirts and it can only be played on a football pitch littered with chest-high cover of high-contrast colors? The best paintballing to be had is in a huge arena of varied terrain, with people using all the tricks they can to hide / not be seen / not get shot.
why did i bother. I forget who the poster was.
Up yours.
Starcraft 2 has been passed over in Korea, Koreans are playing LoL and other stuff. People don't often realize something special happened with starcraft 1 and Korea ("StarCraft sold over 9.5 million copies across the globe, with 4.5 million of these being sold in South Korea"). Basically at some point almost every kid in Korea was playing starcraft. That's what allowed a healthy professional scene to emerge. An important factor was that SC1 was running on about any computer.
why would you want to play NS if it looked like that?
if you want a twitch shooter, you play an established twitch shooter... you don't go "lolz ns has shooting and the graphics can be toned down quite a lot... lets start a competitive ns team".
you play the game because you enjoy the game, and you enjoy the game because it has challenge and depth, and offers something different than other games. then you optimize your graphics to get a competitive edge... ergo if the game is designed to be dark, atmospheric and stealthy, the league admins etc likely won't allow you much freedom with personal brightness/enviromental effects/graphical settings which could harm the game.
I agree. The sound in NS2 is some of the worst I've ever heard. My movements sound as though they are coming from across the room and ambient noise and music completely hide the noises which I want to hear: the enemy and my teammates.
Catering this much to casual is essentially a death sentence in the long run, especially for the competitive scene.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
pretty much this.
charlie made the game way to easy, completely watered-down much of the gameplay elements just to cater to the causal players. At this current state, no way. lets not forget how bad performance of the engine is as well, which doesn't help how bad gameplay works currently. too many bad problems to even think about "esport", maybe in the future when this game develops further more.
I think it mostly boils down how little alternatives there are. Sometimes you don't need to be awesome, you just have to be better than the rest of your league. I'd like to think NS2 can get the initial audience that way and then carry the momentum to work itself past at least some of the less esportish mechanics.
A lot depends on UWE's willingness and ability to adjust and tackle the issues post release though. A lot of the issues stem from the core mechanics of the game, you have to dig pretty deep to fix the issue itself.
League of Legends is the casual game of MOBA compared to Defense of the Ancients, Counter-Strike is the casual game of FPS compared to Quake Live, and look how much more popular these games are in the e-sport scene.
not even remotely close to true. CS 1.6 had one of the most established scenes for FPS competitive gaming.
"casual" isn't really the word... NS2 has things that are just blatantly anti-competitive. Onos wars, the lack of real RTS strategy, the lategame balance is off, the jump system is still painfully idiotic, sound is just completely broken and random, no real "direction" for the game as far as concepts / balance are concerned...
I wish we could get an official word on if the developers are even remotely interested in supporting that aspect of the game, just so all the people forming new clans don't waste their time.
Catering this much to casual is essentially a death sentence in the long run, especially for the competitive scene.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wholeheartedly disagree. Accessability is what makes a game popular and competitive.
Take league of legends as an example. You cant argue that LoL has the biggest competitive scene of any game right now. I think in that world tourney there was something like 260,000 people watching the stream at once on twitch, not including everyone who was basically in the stadium watching live.
How did LoL get this way? It got this way because anyone can run it, anyone can play it, but not just anyone is good enough to be in the competitive scene. Even starcraft has these three golden traits of any competitive game. SC2 will run on almost any PC, just about everyone can crawl their way out of bronze eventually, but it takes a certain type of dedication to really become competitive at the game. This accessability is what made these game so popular. How can you say bringing in new mechanics inspired by the most popular games of today will hurt the NS2 in the long run?
Take league of legends as an example. You cant argue that LoL has the biggest competitive scene of any game right now. I think in that world tourney there was something like 260,000 people watching the stream at once on twitch, not including everyone who was basically in the stadium watching live.
How did LoL get this way? It got this way because anyone can run it, anyone can play it, but not just anyone is good enough to be in the competitive scene. Even starcraft has these three golden traits of any competitive game. SC2 will run on almost any PC, just about everyone can crawl their way out of bronze eventually, but it takes a certain type of dedication to really become competitive at the game. This accessability is what made these game so popular. How can you say bringing in new mechanics inspired by the most popular games of today will hurt the NS2 in the long run?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
see my post above. it's not that it's casual or accessible (it really isn't). it's unplayable for competitive.
Read my post again. CS and LoL is "casual" compared to to DotA and QL, yet they're much more popular in the e-sports scene.
<!--quoteo(post=2009858:date=Nov 4 2012, 07:06 PM:name=Princess_of_Power)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Princess_of_Power @ Nov 4 2012, 07:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009858"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"casual" isn't really the word... NS2 has things that are just blatantly anti-competitive. Onos wars, the lack of real RTS strategy, the lategame balance is off, the jump system is still painfully idiotic, sound is just completely broken and random, no real "direction" for the game as far as concepts / balance are concerned...
I wish we could get an official word on if the developers are even remotely interested in supporting that aspect of the game, just so all the people forming new clans don't waste their time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's just released. Balancing and polishing takes time, let it brew for a while.
I guess I'm just extremely frustrated because I feel like we haven't even gotten official word on half of these topics, so I don't know that time will do anything. I do hope that the game does succeed. I would be more comfortable if there was perhaps some kind of "list of things we are aware of and will work on in the future", because it feels like a lot of problems are just being swept under the rug.
The potential is there, however. UWE isn't finished working on this game. I think by the time they're done there are going to be many viable tech paths for the aliens (maybe paths you'd choose in response to what the marines are doing, for instance early shotguns/early phase tech).
And I dont think you're giving the current wall jump system enough credit.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNLHGSzXySU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNLHGSzXySU</a>
Watch that and tell me you don't have any room for improvement.
That, I can't disagree with you. I guess they don't got the time to be more interactive with the community as only 9 developers, but something I love Roberts Space Industries for is how closely they work with the community; same goes for Riot Games, however, they're a gigantic team, so that goes without saying.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNLHGSzXySU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNLHGSzXySU</a>
Watch that and tell me you don't have any room for improvement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OT:
Regarding skulk walljump, the funny thing is that this works only because of a bug, or at the very least, an unintended design goal. It feels buggy, is highly rote and dependant on environment to the extreme (this is on a scale where you put normal walljumping and bhop on the 'normal' side), and is more so unintuitive than bhop.
Presenting that video as proof of depth of movement shows that you don't exactly understand how it, or the intended walljump system works in the first place.