Psymple balance ideas.

PsympleJester · November 2012

<div class="IPBDescription">A compiled list of things I think need fixing.</div>The current problem with NS2 balance is that Aliens CAN win, but it mostly revolves around doing the exact same thing:

Early Hive>Leap>Early Onos
or
Early Hive>Leap>Celerity>Carapace>Early Onos.

This is a list of changes I think would give aliens much more versatility buffing things that need it and nerfing others that are a little too strong..

<span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%">Restructured the list:</span>

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">Aliens</span>

<span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%">Khamm Abilities</span>
<span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">Drifter Enzyme cloud gives 200% energy regeneration as well as attack speed. (Why have 2x attack speed if you cant actually use it?)

Onos eggs can only be dropped with tres when aliens have 3 hives.</span>

<span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%">Structures</span>
<span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">Buff crag heal rates by 1.5-2x as much.

Shades give local Scent of Fear.

Shades counter Obs Motion tracking when Overlapping and from Pings.

Return whips to their previous state (throwing grenades back).</span>

<span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%">Upgrades</span>
<span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">Adrenaline to become 150% pool and 150% regen.

Regeneration to Work in Combat.

Celerity Works in combat.

Stealth - Combine Camouflage + Silence, Camo whilst slowwalking/silence all the time, can no longer be picked up by motion tracking via obs/ping.

Re-implementation of Focus at 2x dmg for 0.33% attack speed.

Re-implementation of Hypermutation without restoring player to full hp.

Re-implementation of Feign Death... Less broken. (Perhaps: If the player falls to less than 25% hp whilst in the vadius of a shade the player is teleported to the shade instantly 100% cloaked, the enemy team see the player die. If the player is not in the radius of the shade it has no effect, the player isnt invincible and die if shot.

A third DC upgrade</span>

<span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%">Abilities</span>
<span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">Vortex - Changes to make it more useful: Remove marines/structures being un-kill-able whilst vortex-ed, make vortex disrupt the commander if cast on the CC he is in and turn off the power if cast on a power node.

Spit needs fixing + I suggest making it do 2x dmg to buildings/exos/arcs as an early counter to sentries and giving them a chance to counter arcs+exos if the team doesnt yet have bilebomb.

Bilebomb + infestation should destroy dropped weapons.

Allow bite to be used whilst Xenocide is timing down.

Re-implementation of Web (I hope it is comming)

Fix Heal-spray not working on yourself.</span>

<span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%">Lifeforms</span>
<span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">Buff Fade HP by 50 and Armour by 25. (perhaps more)</span>

<span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%">Alien Vision</span>
<span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">Umbra make umbra visible on Alien Vision please!

Make shaded (cloaked) players/structures appear blue (similar to the orange normally but blue) in alien vision please!

Perhaps give the khamm a version of alien vision</span>

<span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%">Spawning</span>
<span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">Allow upgrades to be gestated before spawn

Allow aliens to pick their egg/location of spawn</span>

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">Marines</span>

<span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%">Comm Abilities</span>
<span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">Catalyst?

Let the comm drop Duel Exo's if he has a 3rd tech point

Ping should turn Hallucinations Purple (not kill them).

Allow beacon to be cancelled.</span>

<span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%">Structures</span>
<span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">Remove Armoury armour heal</span>

<span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%">Guns + Equipment</span>
<span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">Allow dropped exo's to be destroyed by aliens

Give single Exo a welder instead of a Claw.

Shotgun as the dominant weapon for marines from 1:00 -> End of game. (Perhaps add HMG back.)

Grenade launcher damage being crazy powerful (This may be solved by buffing fade HP but perhaps making it do structural damage? Have grenade damage be stopped by player collisions (It is silly that a gorge gets kill by a grenade that explodes on the OTHER SIDE of an onos.))</span>

<span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%">Other</span>
<span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">RFD need to be removed and implemented better (Perhaps the RFK based on cost of creature/building killed I suggested previously)

Remove eggs spawning/effects being visible through fog of war by the commander.</span>

Radiocage · November 2012

I can't help but feel like all of these things would make the aliens win more than they already do (which is<b> 53%</b> of the time in 228.)

I do not understand why people think the aliens never win.

ChickenOfWar · November 2012

Oh yes I do hope UWE is doing something about the cookie cutter alien build at the moment. I'd really love to see more upgrades being relevant than just celerity and carapace.

Crags should heal by percentage of total health. IE alot more on an onos than a skulk.

Interesting idea for enzyme cloud, I think if it increased energy regen rate more commanders would start using enzyme cloud. Hell i'd be for dropping or at least lowering the attack speed increase if we got a energy regen rate boost from it.

BootyPoppin · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Radiocage @ Nov 4 2012, 12:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009887"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I can't help but feel like all of these things would make the aliens win more than they already do (which is<b> 53%</b> of the time in 228.)

I do not understand why people think the aliens never win.</div>

They only win because Onos.

This nerfs Onos (requiring 3 Hives to drop egg with Tres, not something I necessarily agree with, but it's posted.) and buffs other units.

Sewlek · November 2012

dropping eggs / equipment is a problem on its own: since it costs t.res, that feature will never scale with player counts. as multiple people mentioned already, a t.res dropped onos has in 6v6 a much higher value than in a 12v12. therefor, moving onos eggs to third hive wont solve anything. egg / equipment drop was added as a t.res dump for the commanders, or as a strategic choice to boost your army (similar decision in other RTS games would be instead of researching or expanding, you build more attacking units). moving onos eggs to third hive would probably just cause that people had to rely on fades instead of onos, and is not a solution to the underlying problem. the comm needs an ability to boost their army (as a t.res dump or as a strategical choice) which scales properly with player counts, works for both teams and throughout the whole game, and puts the t.res -> p.res translation in the proper relation.

despite that, i agree with the armory healing armor and shotgun being a problem (its too much of an alround weapon, the other purchaseable weapons are specialisations, or try to be, and the shotgun is currently a plain "upgrade"). "war of attrition" tactics wont work for aliens due to armor healing, and i would like to see more welder usage in the game. i really miss that from ns1, where welding each other was not only a phenomenon in competitive games, but was also very common in public games (granted, welding exos is standard, but guess what, thats because they cant repair at the armory)

regarding alien upgrades: i basically agree on this. aliens (technically) dont scale as well as marines do, and in my opinion its because most upgrades are too "weak". having stronger upgrades would also result in more interesting viable builds, but its really a tough task to make all 3 evolution choices viable for hive 1: ns1 kinda failed here after years of tweaking. doesnt mean that i will give up on this, and feedback is definitely welcome here!

Cane · November 2012

Aliens really really need several tiers of their evolutions like in NS1 instead of the single one we get here.

Also I would love to see a general evolution building with global upgrades for all aliens like for example increased HP, melee damage and maybe energy regen. I never understood why marines should be the only ones to have global upgrades, I mean wouldn't it make sense to tweak your DNA to something better that would work out for every alien lifeform?

Gliss · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Radiocage @ Nov 4 2012, 10:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009887"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I can't help but feel like all of these things would make the aliens win more than they already do (which is<b> 53%</b> of the time in 228.)

I do not understand why people think the aliens never win.</div>
winrate is not how you balance a game.

rantology · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Nov 4 2012, 12:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009965"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>the comm needs an ability to boost their army (as a t.res dump or as a strategical choice) which scales properly with player counts, works for both teams and throughout the whole game, and puts the t.res -> p.res translation in the proper relation.</div>

I think the problem with that Schimmel, is that the Onos has no pre-req tech to get before he can be dropped. The only thing you need is 2 hives, which can be dropped at the 0:01 mark of every game. If you compare that to the marine equivalent, the Exo, you need to at least have some kind of map and res control for some time to make it happen because you need to be able to control two techpoints and afford the following: a 2nd CC, and AA, a prototype lab and then the ~25 res it takes for the research itself. On top of that, the most powerful tech, the Dual mini Exo, cannot be dropped by the commander. So you will never see a dual-mini Exo in the early/mid game.

As long as Onos has no pre-reqs to be dropped, it will get dropped. Having other "viable" strategies won't keep it from being dropped, because it is simply the best strategy. Because it is the <b>most powerful endgame siege unit </b>and it can come out 5-6 min into a game.

I'm sorry but I'm really sick of competitive NS2 right now, because this is all you see in every single game. The onos does not belong on Hive 2, it belongs on Hive 3. There is no logical reason behind keeping it on Hive 2, even the reasons you gave do not make much sense to me. Really, it sounds like you're being biased toward the higher player counts in the game(the pubs) and giving the competitive 6v6s the cold shoulder based on that logic. :/ It's boring, it's not fun, it's not skillful. It's been ruining the competitive scene ever since it was put in.

@OP, most all of those are some very good ideas.

GORGEous · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Nov 4 2012, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009965"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>dropping eggs / equipment is a problem on its own: since it costs t.res, that feature will never scale with player counts. as multiple people mentioned already, a t.res dropped onos has in 6v6 a much higher value than in a 12v12. therefor, moving onos eggs to third hive wont solve anything. egg / equipment drop was added as a t.res dump for the commanders, or as a strategic choice to boost your army (similar decision in other RTS games would be instead of researching or expanding, you build more attacking units). moving onos eggs to third hive would probably just cause that people had to rely on fades instead of onos, and is not a solution to the underlying problem. the comm needs an ability to boost their army (as a t.res dump or as a strategical choice) which scales properly with player counts, works for both teams and throughout the whole game, and puts the t.res -> p.res translation in the proper relation.

despite that, i agree with the armory healing armor and shotgun being a problem (its too much of an alround weapon, the other purchaseable weapons are specialisations, or try to be, and the shotgun is currently a plain "upgrade"). "war of attrition" tactics wont work for aliens due to armor healing, and i would like to see more welder usage in the game. i really miss that from ns1, where welding each other was not only a phenomenon in competitive games, but was also very common in public games (granted, welding exos is standard, but guess what, thats because they cant repair at the armory)

regarding alien upgrades: i basically agree on this. aliens (technically) dont scale as well as marines do, and in my opinion its because most upgrades are too "weak". having stronger upgrades would also result in more interesting viable builds, but its really a tough task to make all 3 evolution choices viable for hive 1: ns1 kinda failed here after years of tweaking. doesnt mean that i will give up on this, and feedback is definitely welcome here!</div>

How about this idea for the onos problem, Schimmel.

+no hive requirements for any lifeform
+requires an alien to evolve into the lifeform via pres before allowing a tres version

This solves: a) The 6-7 minute onos which is incredibly broken in competitive games. b) removes hive reqs for tres so aliens with 200 res can still drop onos eggs for a comeback even if they lose second hive late in the game. c) forces a natural tech path through the lifeform evolutions -- early game skulk into lerk/gorge -> mid game lerk/fade -> late game fade/onos.

The current onos is very unfun in competitive games because:

+little individual skill involved for marines (compare shooting an onos to shooting a fade, skulk or lerk)
+huge sense of hoplessness for marines (it doesn't matter how well you play if you have 3 or less marines in an area and an onos walks up -- you're dead, even to an average onos)
+sense of relying on a crutch for aliens (aliens don't feel like they have choice. It's try to hold as many RTs -> 2nd hive -> onos/leap. The Onos comes out 50% sooner than your 1-2 fades. And the onos comes out about when lerks can come out in probably around 1/3 of the games I play.)

and most importantly:
+games are basically won or lost before the onos comes out. Marines are on a very short clock (6-10 minutes typically). If marines don't win or deal huge amounts of RT damage before this two hive onos comes out, the game is over. This means that marines, against an even alien team, must dominate that even alien team early game or they will lose at the 6-10m mark. All it really takes for aliens to win at this point is holding 3 RTs, holding 2nd hive, and not losing to map design (easy arc places on tram, or jp/gl in cargo).

Zek · November 2012

Like Sewlek mentioned, there are just fundamental problems with the idea of comms dropping gear/lifeforms for their team due to the TRes vs PRes design. I'm a bit confused as to why comms need an additional res dump... What was wrong with just dropping more structures? Not that they shouldn't have more abilities, I just think the game would be fine if TRes drops were removed tomorrow.

Namm · November 2012

What I feel lack from NS2 is that crystal clear rock-paper-scissor thing you got going in for instance StarCraft. "Okay, my opponent is going for Zealots, I'll better get Firebats!"

Translated to NS2, it would be nice to see stuff like this: The Marines are going for Phase Gate and weapon/armor upgrades and continued use of the Rifle, so the Aliens get Shift Hive and Celerity to more easily close the distance... Or, the Marines go Shotguns, so the Aliens counter with Crag and Carapace to soak up the damage and reduce the one-shot kills.

Also, nothing is really bad against anything I guess. Gorges aren't great for combat, but that's about it. It's not like the Onos is almost useless against Jetpacks or that the Lerk can't make a dent in an exo. You never have the feeling that "oh, damn, he had some Firebats and all my Zealoths are dead, I better get Dragoons quick!"

Maybe this is not the direction the devs want to take NS2 and maybe I'm just rambling, but anyway...

[Deleted User] · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I just think the game would be fine if TRes drops were removed tomorrow.</div>

Except aliens will have lost their best tactic.

I do agree though the need for onos at that stage in the game just feels wrong and says a lot about what the aliens have at their disposal. An onos shouldn't be needed at that stage to compete against a competent marine team. An onos moved to third hive along with some of OP's alien buffs so they can compete without an early onos would be a step in the right direction imo.

Sewlek · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Nov 4 2012, 03:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009999"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I think the problem with that Schimmel, is that the Onos has no pre-req tech to get before he can be dropped.
...
As long as Onos has no pre-reqs to be dropped, it will get dropped. Having other "viable" strategies won't keep it from being dropped, because it is simply the best strategy. Because it is the <b>most powerful endgame siege unit </b>and it can come out 5-6 min into a game.
...</div>

i was talking about removing dropping life forms / equipment, and instead have the option to convert t.res to p.res -> works for all players counts, just need a suitable ratio. asuming you have a 5:1 ratio: you can boost the p.res income of all players (not a bad thing!) but you would need to sacrifice a lot of tech or other structures. as long as the ratio fits, there will be a real decision to make. you can go for early lerk rush, by sacrificing the whole economy. you could get early onos, but that would be insane expensive (need to dump in at least 200 team res to afford ~7 minute hive 1 onos). a problem this system would cause, is that onos has no tier 2. in ns1 this was stomp, and while hive 1 onos was "ok" somewhat, playing without stomp made him very vulnerable. so, unless the tiers are worked on and completed / "fixed", such a t.res conversion wont solve the problem (just shifts it)

rantology · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Nov 4 2012, 01:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010025"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>i was talking about removing dropping life forms / equipment, and instead have the option to convert t.res to p.res -> works for all players counts, just need a suitable ratio. asuming you have a 5:1 ratio: you can boost the p.res income of all players (not a bad thing!) but you would need to sacrifice a lot of tech or other structures. as long as the ratio fits, there will be a real decision to make. you can go for early lerk rush, by sacrificing the whole economy. you could get early onos, but that would be insane expensive (need to dump in at least 200 team res to afford ~7 minute hive 1 onos). a problem this system would cause, is that onos has no tier 2. in ns1 this was stomp, and while hive 1 onos was "ok" somewhat, playing without stomp made him very vulnerable. so, unless the tiers are worked on and completed / "fixed", such a t.res conversion wont solve the problem (just shifts it)</div>

I think it would be a hell of a lot better than the current state of the 1:1 ratio. When comm-drops were first announced I really thought that this is what it would be like, that the drops would be far more expensive than their p-res equivalents. I was very surprised when I saw it was a mere 0.5:1 ratio though. Now it's 1:1, but it really doesn't make much of a difference.

It would be really nice to see this addressed in the very near future, though. Really, I think trying anything would be better than the current state of affairs. Even if it makes comm-drops non-viable, it would still be a huge improvement.

GORGEous · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Nov 4 2012, 03:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010025"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>i was talking about removing dropping life forms / equipment, and instead have the option to convert t.res to p.res -> works for all players counts, just need a suitable ratio. asuming you have a 5:1 ratio: you can boost the p.res income of all players (not a bad thing!) but you would need to sacrifice a lot of tech or other structures. as long as the ratio fits, there will be a real decision to make. you can go for early lerk rush, by sacrificing the whole economy. you could get early onos, but that would be insane expensive (need to dump in at least 200 team res to afford ~7 minute hive 1 onos). a problem this system would cause, is that onos has no tier 2. in ns1 this was stomp, and while hive 1 onos was "ok" somewhat, playing without stomp made him very vulnerable. so, unless the tiers are worked on and completed / "fixed", such a t.res conversion wont solve the problem (just shifts it)</div>

That's a neat idea. At first glance, I like it because it greatly increases the cost -- almost prohibitively so -- of dropping incredibly fast (<10m) onos. I worry the 5:1 ratio may be too high since the current ratio is effectively 1:1. Though you have delivery advantage with the new method in that you can build upon a current player's pres instead of having to buy the entire lifeform with tres or pres, you can buy it with a combination of both.

Despite the ability/scaling problems you laid out, which are also prevalent in the current system, I think your proposed method would be a huge improvement over the current system. Fades would probably need some health love to cover the gap that the quick-onos-crutch has been for the last month.

Temphage · November 2012

The Fade in NS1 was the midfield tank. I didn't agree with it - the Fade was pretty flimsy looking and could survive apocalyptic amounts of firepower - but it worked.

The Fade in NS2 is now a superskulk - as durable as a dried turd. In NS1, people proposed ideas for new lifeforms, but everyone agreed that one wasn't really needed. Skulks with Carapace could endure marine weapon upgrades at the beginning, Fades could endure midgame marine upgrades, and Onos the end (sort of).

With the Fade no longer being viable to actually attack a base with due to its poor durability and not-so-great structure destroying skills, I think we finally have a niche open for an interim lifeform that serves as a durable midgame combat unit to replace the missing role of the Fade as the 'light tank' from NS1. Without blink, obviously.

If you have this new lifeform you can easily justify moving the Onos deeper into the game. Hell, that's almost the whole reason the 5-minute-Onos works so well - it's so powerful, but marines at that point have little to stop it with.

Moving the Onos back and giving us a durable frontliner would allow the aliens to push the marines, without pushing them directly off the edge of the map. Nerfing the Onos itself, however, is NOT an option, I think we can all agree there.

Temphage · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Namm @ Nov 4 2012, 07:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010015"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>What I feel lack from NS2 is that crystal clear rock-paper-scissor thing you got going in for instance StarCraft. "Okay, my opponent is going for Zealots, I'll better get Firebats!"

Translated to NS2, it would be nice to see stuff like this: The Marines are going for Phase Gate and weapon/armor upgrades and continued use of the Rifle, so the Aliens get Shift Hive and Celerity to more easily close the distance... Or, the Marines go Shotguns, so the Aliens counter with Crag and Carapace to soak up the damage and reduce the one-shot kills.

Also, nothing is really bad against anything I guess. Gorges aren't great for combat, but that's about it. It's not like the Onos is almost useless against Jetpacks or that the Lerk can't make a dent in an exo. You never have the feeling that "oh, damn, he had some Firebats and all my Zealoths are dead, I better get Dragoons quick!"

Maybe this is not the direction the devs want to take NS2 and maybe I'm just rambling, but anyway...</div>

You mean something like advanced, deep evolution trees that allow individual aliens to personalize their playstyle, so if marines are going with flamethrowers you can evolve flame-resistant carapace, like one would expect a rapidly-mutating lifeform in a game called Natural Selection - a play on Darwin's theory of evolution - to perform?

*Cough* <a href="http://i.imgur.com/T8Y07.png" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/T8Y07.png</a>

Katana- · November 2012

Wouldn't the best ratio for tres to pres conversion be 1 divided by the number of players? This the same conversion ratio between team res and personal res the extractors/harvesters use.

Namm · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 4 2012, 09:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>You mean something like advanced, deep evolution trees that allow individual aliens to personalize their playstyle, so if marines are going with flamethrowers you can evolve flame-resistant carapace, like one would expect a rapidly-mutating lifeform in a game called Natural Selection - a play on Darwin's theory of evolution - to perform?

*Cough* <a href="http://i.imgur.com/T8Y07.png" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/T8Y07.png</a></div>
I was talking in broader terms and about the entire Alien team in general and the decisions the team makes, but that chart is quite impressive. :) Even if the devs managed to implement an evolve tree like that for every lifeform, their heads might just explode in the process of trying to alleviate subsequent balance issues.

GORGEous · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Nov 4 2012, 03:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010059"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Wouldn't the best ratio for tres to pres conversion be 1 divided by the number of players? This the same conversion ratio between team res and personal res the extractors/harvesters use.</div>

This would mean
10tres: 1pres if 10 players
5tres: 1pres if 5 players

You actually want something inverse of this. With more players, the tres cost should be lower. Where as with less players, the tres cost should be higher. Lifeforms like the onos are more effective against lower player counts, thus need to be more expensive at lower counts.

IE start:
4tres : 1pres @6p
2tres : 1 pres @12p

scaled in between there.

project_demon · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 4 2012, 04:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>You mean something like advanced, deep evolution trees that allow individual aliens to personalize their playstyle, so if marines are going with flamethrowers you can evolve flame-resistant carapace, like one would expect a rapidly-mutating lifeform in a game called Natural Selection - a play on Darwin's theory of evolution - to perform?

*Cough* <a href="http://i.imgur.com/T8Y07.png" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/T8Y07.png</a></div>

That link looks like RPG abilities (most of them at least)... don't like, nor do they fit in the NS2 world imo.

Onii-chan · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 4 2012, 10:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>You mean something like advanced, deep evolution trees that allow individual aliens to personalize their playstyle, so if marines are going with flamethrowers you can evolve flame-resistant carapace, like one would expect a rapidly-mutating lifeform in a game called Natural Selection - a play on Darwin's theory of evolution - to perform?

*Cough* <a href="http://i.imgur.com/T8Y07.png" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/T8Y07.png</a></div>

The devs should save that image for when they decide to make a World of Natural Selection MMORPG.

Temphage · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (project_demon @ Nov 4 2012, 09:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010118"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>That link looks like RPG abilities (most of them at least)... don't like, nor do they fit in the NS2 world imo.</div>
And what is the NS2 world? Besides the dullest implementation of 'crazy alien race that evolves to stay at the top of the foodchain'?

They're down to 6 crappy upgrades, and only two of them, silence and camouflage, actually dramatically change how you can play a given lifeform. There's no evolution going on whatsoever, and the aliens constantly feel like they're playing catchup to the incredible marine technological advances.

It honestly feels more like the aliens are the underdogs and the evil human marines are showing up with advanced weapons of mass destruction that can blow up hives through walls, and they're fighting a desperate struggle of survival, which is pretty much the exact opposite of what NS is supposed to be.

If you remove all the features on that tree that are just passive upgrades (which are mere extensions of the L1 / L2 / L3 upgrades from NS1), as well as the features that are NS1 / NS2 features, this is what you're left with:

<a href="http://i.imgur.com/nyUfy.png" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/nyUfy.png</a>

The entire point of it was to engineer it so the skulks can remain competitive throughout the game. A player should be able to decide he wants to invest DNA points into being a skulk and be able to turn his little nippy ankle-biting dog into a pretty brutal killing machine, or a unit that's very good at supporting his team. And it includes actual rewards for skilled gameplay, like leap/bite damage bonuses rewarding perfect timing, or first-strike bonuses during an ambush.

The entire point of aliens evolving and having upgrades should be that marines don't know quite what to expect, when the exact opposite is true. With this tree system, one skulk can decide he wants to take the less-skilled leap tree that lets him pounce on enemies, serving as an effective counter against lone marines, but being mostly useless in groups. Another could have chosen to invest his points into being a sneaky ambusher that moves unheard but relies on the shadows to remain hidden. So marines have to fight both types of skulk, instead of just going 'Oh they have a Crag hive, ITS OKAY GUYS JUST SHOOT THEM WITH 3 MORE BULLETS'.

If the marines start moving out with shotguns to counter your skulks, you invest a lot of points into getting shotgun resistance. This makes it MUCH harder in the future to resist grenade damage, however, since you'd have to spend even more points moving out to that branch of the tree.

I'm not saying these skills would be balanced with how the game is right now, but I think the marines need some changes as well, especially in the 'added depth' department.

Cane · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (project_demon @ Nov 4 2012, 10:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010118"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>That link looks like RPG abilities (most of them at least)... don't like, nor do they fit in the NS2 world imo.</div>

RPG? Are you high or something? The basis of evolution is that you evolve to survive and most of those upgrades in the picture makes sense and would make aliens fun once again to play. I mean who the ###### enjoys playing aliens in NS2 when it always end up in a onos spam because no other alien is really viable?

{LoC}Blue_Leader · November 2012

Marines are fighting to take control of Alien's Oil! It's all so clear now.

AurOn2 · November 2012

They must be americans then :)
Hey gorgeus, what would things become with that forumula at 48 players? or 128?
Free? :P
Also, these boys have made some good points, Temphage's imgur link has some pretty good ideas, like skulk blood, things like that are already doable and i would love to try out some of them :D

PsympleJester · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Nov 4 2012, 07:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009965"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>dropping eggs / equipment is a problem on its own: since it costs t.res, that feature will never scale with player counts. as multiple people mentioned already, a t.res dropped onos has in 6v6 a much higher value than in a 12v12. therefor, moving onos eggs to third hive wont solve anything. egg / equipment drop was added as a t.res dump for the commanders, or as a strategic choice to boost your army (similar decision in other RTS games would be instead of researching or expanding, you build more attacking units). moving onos eggs to third hive would probably just cause that people had to rely on fades instead of onos, and is not a solution to the underlying problem. the comm needs an ability to boost their army (as a t.res dump or as a strategical choice) which scales properly with player counts, works for both teams and throughout the whole game, and puts the t.res -> p.res translation in the proper relation.</div>

I was always under the impression that Tres scaled dependant on the number of players on the team, after reading your post presumably this isn't true... Perhaps this could be a solution or a step towards tres weapon drops having less impact in smaller games.
As to commander relying on fades instead of onos I totally disagree... Fade eggs are only dropped when a fade dies, this is because by the time the commander has enough spare res to drop a fade egg the team are normally so close to being able to fade themselves it is pointless.
However if Onos drops were removed (until 3 hives) it would enable to comm to drop a fade egg for a member of the team whilst they save their own Pres for an onos. Whilst I understand this could be paraphrased as "relying on fades" arn't the aliens supposed to be relying on their fades at 8 mins into the game? The same way they rely on their skulks 0 mins into the game and rely on their onos at the end of the game?
The current problem however is that due to fades being gimped: Less hp than ns1, less damage than ns1 (no focus) and less energy than ns1 (no metabolism)... we cant rely on fades at all.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Nov 4 2012, 07:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009965"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>despite that, i agree with the armory healing armor and shotgun being a problem (its too much of an alround weapon, the other purchaseable weapons are specialisations, or try to be, and the shotgun is currently a plain "upgrade"). "war of attrition" tactics wont work for aliens due to armor healing, and i would like to see more welder usage in the game. i really miss that from ns1, where welding each other was not only a phenomenon in competitive games, but was also very common in public games (granted, welding exos is standard, but guess what, thats because they cant repair at the armory)</div>

Both of these are good to hear, I understand the reasoning for HMG's not being implemented so that the LMGs are viable late game however I think that the way it has been dealt with the Shotgun being the <b>it</b> gun is just making games bland... I remember ns1 where some people would still want shotguns late game due to the way they worked whilst the majority of the team still used HMGs... Now everyone just uses Shotguns and the game is bland.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Nov 4 2012, 07:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009965"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>regarding alien upgrades: i basically agree on this. aliens (technically) dont scale as well as marines do, and in my opinion its because most upgrades are too "weak". having stronger upgrades would also result in more interesting viable builds, but its really a tough task to make all 3 evolution choices viable for hive 1: ns1 kinda failed here after years of tweaking. doesnt mean that i will give up on this, and feedback is definitely welcome here!</div>

I am not sure if you are referring to my post (OP) here but I didn't really want "upgrades" to be made better... I just want the "broken" unviable ones to be fixed. I honestly think if you want to make all 3 paths viable then focus NEEDS to be brought back, it would be nice if the dev team would actually comment as to why they refuse to do so that way the community can attempt to provide another more acceptable upgrade.

Oh and thanks for replying: I had almost lost hope that Dev's even read the forums these days... Its nice to see that you do and are taking on board peoples comments.

GORGEous · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Nov 4 2012, 05:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010243"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>They must be americans then :)
Hey gorgeus, what would things become with that forumula at 48 players? or 128?
Free? :P
Also, these boys have made some good points, Temphage's imgur link has some pretty good ideas, like skulk blood, things like that are already doable and i would love to try out some of them :D</div>

The game at those player counts is a complete joke regardless of any tres:pres mechanic. You could implement a 1:1 floor if you were worried about it, though.

Khyron · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Princess_of_Power @ Nov 5 2012, 06:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009993"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>winrate is not how you balance a game.</div>
Yes it is. From our last discussion, I think you meant: win rate is not how you <i>design</i> a game.

Temphage · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Nov 4 2012, 11:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010371"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Yes it is. From our last discussion, I think you meant: win rate is not how you <i>design</i> a game.</div>
:)

Khyron · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 5 2012, 06:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010003"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>...I'm a bit confused as to why comms need an additional res dump... What was wrong with just dropping more structures? Not that they shouldn't have more abilities, I just think the game would be fine if TRes drops were removed tomorrow.</div>
Basically it would create a situation where the comms would spam NPC units: drifters, whips, macs, arcs. People don't like fighting spam and they don't like fighting NPC units. The current system gives the comms a viable alternative to those NPC units. Importantly, making Onos eggs more expensive is only effective up until the point that the comm would prefer to spend that tRes on <i>anything</i> else.

Psymple balance ideas.

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