<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The attempts to "balance" aliens are not to make them more powerful but to nerf some aspects (eg. early onos) and buff others (eg. shade tree & fade) thus creating and even distribution of balance within the alien tech tree as opposed to some elements being very powerful and others being fairly pointless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, balance refers to bringing practical complexity close to the theoretical one:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One aspect of complexity come from the tech tree, given a tech tree you can compute the number of different build orders. This number typically grows very fast when the tech tree becomes bigger, so adding a few elements to the game can hugely change the number of possible build orders. For example adding a fourth chamber to the aliens.
Now we could call this is the theoretical build orders depth, but of course what matter in the end is the practical build orders depth, and it's where balance comes in; most build orders should be equally successful. If just one build order is super good all the potential complexity is lost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2010995:date=Nov 5 2012, 02:22 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 5 2012, 02:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010995"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Different playstyles is fine, but there's no denying that non-commanding marines enjoy a pretty simple, straightforward life.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually think thats fine. Different play-styles you can choose from depending on how you are feeling. If I want a round where I am just focusing on aiming, I'll join the marines and just defend a chokepoint/RT/techpoint. Or I could focus on guerrilla warfare and try to take some alien RT's down while my team is pushing somewhere else. Or I could join that push pressuring a hive and have a fragfest.
Now thinking about it, aliens feature a lot of these choices as well. The only difference is that even as a simple skulk, you should think a bit more than the general marine. But I like that manifestation of asymmetric gameplay (even more so when there was no alien commander back in NS1).
Also Temphage, try not being so damn negative about the game. Reading through the forum, your posts are all addressing real or imagined flaws...just take a step back.
<!--quoteo(post=2010309:date=Nov 5 2012, 09:21 AM:name=EnderA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EnderA @ Nov 5 2012, 09:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010309"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it's the skill floor. Learning to use a skulk effectively is challenging in and of itself - running on walls/ceilings, jumping around, circling marine legs, etc. The lack of minimap is a huge problem in my opinion. (I've said this elsewhere.) Learning and navigating the maps is very important, and hard enough as it is. Having to keep the full map open all the time just to get around makes it quite frustrating, and a big turnoff to going aliens.
Personally, I love the aliens. They're definitely more unique and challenging to play, which I enjoy. I'd love to see a buff to lerk/fade, though, because right now they feel like a waste of resources. Probably paired with some nerf to Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed. When I first started playing I dreaded playing aliens because it meant I was going to die, a lot. Eventually I wrapped my head around the basics of playing skulk but it really just isn't as accessible as a marine with an assault rifle. Everyone knows how to shoot a gun in an FPS. Hard to say how that can be improved at all, how do you put training wheels on a skulk without ruining them? To their credit, they put videos in the main menu that go over the basics, but not everyone watches them before they jump in (I didn't).
I guess all anyone can do is take rookie skulks under their wing. Skulk isn't <i>that</i> hard, but if someone goes into it thinking they can just run at marines and spam their bite they're going to have a bad time. I'm sure pretty much anyone can get it if they're taught
Aliens are still fun(ish) but atm are also rather frustrating. I don't honestly think it would take much to bring the balance back. Please don't quote the pie chart as most of us know its useless.
What would I do? Well as you are asking :) Just little things really.
1. Make the Skulk spit more powerful. I don't see it used that much, and if it did more damage maybe it would be used more and it would also be better at weakening Marines before going in for the kill. Especially useful later in the game when it takes 1000 bites to kill a single marine.
2. A bit more adren or a slower use rate for it. Don't know about anyone else but since Adren was reduced a lot during the later stages of the beta, I spend as much time watching my Adren meter as I do the actual game and that cant be good.
3. A better implementation of wall-jump. Give the Skulks a good reason to get off the floor and onto the ceilings and walls where its harder to be shot.
4. A touch more armour across all life forms and a little of the same for Carapace.
Not big changes but ones that may address the frustration of playing Aliens atm.
But after those, I agree with the thinking that something has to be done about early 2nd hive tres Onos. Its been a problem for a while and its not going away. If anything its getting more common on public servers as well as the main choice in comp games. The reason being is its one of the few strategies for Aliens to win.
I would say 80% of the games I have played recently are marine wins. Most of the Alien wins are 2nd hive Onos wins, Marines lacking a comm/new comm, Marines quiting and auto win kicks in etc. In matches with equally skilled teams and decent comms there is still more of a chance marines will win but its more of a grind to get an Alien victory.
<!--quoteo(post=2010941:date=Nov 5 2012, 04:47 AM:name=Ansom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ansom @ Nov 5 2012, 04:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What the hell do Aliens have that require Artillery fire, Grenade spam, Exosuits, and Flamethrowers? Whips and Hydras? It's not comparable to a Sentry nest, where Skulks, Fades, and the like are hard-pressed to get in and take them out while sustaining fire.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're doing it wrong. Sentry nests, while powerful, are limited to 1 per room and 3 per battery. And they aren't exactly to ensure maximum targeting potential. A gorge with bile bomb wrecks clusters of armored structures like that. Some commanders do get bile bomb, its an afterthought for others. And if marines stomp on in to come harass the gorge, they'll probably step away from the sentries. And then your skulks can get them. Teamwork, I can certainly understand complaints to being overpowered, but I've seen skilled marines who could shoot a fly off a wall still overwhelmed by a little bit of teamwork and mayhem caused by the aliens.
I think aliens might get a bit more enjoyable if most of the alien experience wouldn't consist of waiting.
You wait around 12 seconds every time you die, and most people get a K/D < 1 while playing aliens. So most alien players spend more time waiting to respawn than the average marine. Also, as aliens rely more on stealth and ambushes and can't help the commander build stuff, most of your alive time consist either of waiting for the opportunity to strike or running around semi-aimlessly.
<!--quoteo(post=2011240:date=Nov 5 2012, 08:29 AM:name=Salraine_Chi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Nov 5 2012, 08:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011240"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Make the Skulk spit more powerful. I don't see it used that much, and if it did more damage maybe it would be used more and it would also be better at weakening Marines before going in for the kill. Especially useful later in the game when it takes 1000 bites to kill a single marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In NS1 Skulk spit was useful because of the hivesight side-effects. In NS2, with hivesight severely nerfed, it has very little purpose.
<!--quoteo(post=2011240:date=Nov 5 2012, 08:29 AM:name=Salraine_Chi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Nov 5 2012, 08:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011240"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. A better implementation of wall-jump. Give the Skulks a good reason to get off the floor and onto the ceilings and walls where its harder to be shot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally, I avoid this as running along the walls is rather fatal.
In NS1, I remember "knowing" where the marines were, hivesight (I guess?) was the biggest part of this. (am I crazy or did it also show buildings being damaged? I certainly don't remember pressing 'c' then struggling to find 'me' and then trying to work out where the hell the red circle is, then repeating that 5 seconds later when I inevitably get lost due to the disorienting alien sight thing, only to discover that the red circle is just a dying cyst due to the chain being cut 5 minutes earlier...) In NS2, I have no idea where the marines are... if I hop down this corridor as a shotgun marine turns the corner, 'splat'. So I go slower, listen, hide in the roof or down on the floor...
If I were looking for changes: - re-visit things like hivesight, aliens move quickly, but navigate poorly. - take a look at the fade. In NS1 these were the 'grunts' that won/lost the war. In NS2 they are rather irrelevant. - take a look at the onos. Is it too powerful in general?
Personally, I save every available resource for onos. An onos changes the battlefield, fade/lerks just change the wall colour due to blood splatter.
The game was in an overall better state back when the game wins were 75/25 alien/marine. I could give a ###### abut the winloss ratio it was actually fun to play both sides back then (around 20 patches ago). Following countless nerfs to aliens, a few buffs to marines and alot of performance increases (marine buff of sorts) its just in a very poor state. You may be 50/50, but 50% of the game is dull
I've said this before...Marines generally have an easier time now because the playstyle is like any other FPS - put the cursor over the target and shoot it. You can jump around, sprint, crouch and (eventually) jetpack around, but you're limited to (mostly) human-range movement. This playstyle is understandable right out of the infantry portal.
Aliens do have a steeper learning curve because they're not human. Pub skulks continue rushing at marines on the floor and neglect to use the walls, ceilings, vents and such. They also don't even know how to use their sneaky feet to get places without the marines hearing them. Another fatal mistake is not knowing when to run away - if you see three marines in a room pointing their guns at you, why rush in as a lone skulk?
Same goes for walking lerks using spikes. The easiest lifeform for new players to use is the onos, but for obvious reasons most people don't get the chance to use them in a one-sided match. Even if they did, they rush at the marines and fight until they do not have enough health and armor to run away - poof, there goes 75 res. Most new Onos don't even realize that they have Charge, let alone Stomp when it's researched.
Actually, the single biggest problem is that new skulks don't know how to play as skulk - this leads to excessive early deaths, the loss of key locations on the map, failure to defend RTs, etc. Even a good commander can't do anything to come back from that.
<b>The solution is NOT to buff up skulks (not yet anyway) but to try and teach new skulks how to play.</b> A mic is useful at these times, giving them game tips on the go. If the vets keep quiet and don't dispense advice, you'll end up with people wanting to stack only marines because they simply don't understand how to play as a skulk.
<!--quoteo(post=2011328:date=Nov 5 2012, 05:37 PM:name=Gorgenapper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gorgenapper @ Nov 5 2012, 05:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011328"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've said this before...Marines generally have an easier time now because the playstyle is like any other FPS - put the cursor over the target and shoot it. You can jump around, sprint, crouch and (eventually) jetpack around, but you're limited to (mostly) human-range movement. This playstyle is understandable right out of the infantry portal.
Aliens do have a steeper learning curve because they're not human. Pub skulks continue rushing at marines on the floor and neglect to use the walls, ceilings, vents and such. They also don't even know how to use their sneaky feet to get places without the marines hearing them. Same goes for walking lerks using spikes. The easiest lifeform for new players to use is the onos, but for obvious reasons most people don't get the chance to use them in a one-sided match. Even if they did, they rush at the marines and fight until they do not have enough health and armor to run away - poof, there goes 75 res. Most new Onos don't even realize that they have Charge, let alone Stomp when it's researched.
Actually, the single biggest problem is that new skulks don't know how to play as skulk - this leads to excessive early deaths, the loss of key locations on the map, failure to defend RTs, etc. Even a good commander can't do anything to come back from that.
<b>The solution is NOT to buff up skulks (not yet anyway) but to try and teach new skulks how to play.</b> A mic is useful at these times, giving them game tips on the go. If the vets keep quiet and don't dispense advice, you'll end up with people wanting to stack only marines because they simply don't understand how to play as a skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much exactly yes...
Fade still needs buffing and Onos eggs still need sorting though.
<!--quoteo(post=2011328:date=Nov 5 2012, 05:37 PM:name=Gorgenapper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gorgenapper @ Nov 5 2012, 05:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011328"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've said this before...Marines generally have an easier time now because the playstyle is like any other FPS - put the cursor over the target and shoot it. You can jump around, sprint, crouch and (eventually) jetpack around, but you're limited to (mostly) human-range movement. This playstyle is understandable right out of the infantry portal.
Aliens do have a steeper learning curve because they're not human. Pub skulks continue rushing at marines on the floor and neglect to use the walls, ceilings, vents and such. They also don't even know how to use their sneaky feet to get places without the marines hearing them. Same goes for walking lerks using spikes. The easiest lifeform for new players to use is the onos, but for obvious reasons most people don't get the chance to use them in a one-sided match. Even if they did, they rush at the marines and fight until they do not have enough health and armor to run away - poof, there goes 75 res. Most new Onos don't even realize that they have Charge, let alone Stomp when it's researched.
Actually, the single biggest problem is that new skulks don't know how to play as skulk - this leads to excessive early deaths, the loss of key locations on the map, failure to defend RTs, etc. Even a good commander can't do anything to come back from that.
<b>The solution is NOT to buff up skulks (not yet anyway) but to try and teach new skulks how to play.</b> A mic is useful at these times, giving them game tips on the go. If the vets keep quiet and don't dispense advice, you'll end up with people wanting to stack only marines because they simply don't understand how to play as a skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You really don't see a problem with the fact that in order to get 90% out of marine gameplay, you only need four skills: aim, basic teamwork (you hold 'e', I'll guard), holding 'e', and holding 'shift'?
Aliens require advanced teamwork, have advanced and unintuitive movement techniques, have less direction overall, require you to be able to outsmart marines, have better timing, and use stealth, as well as having good aim?
The bigger issues aside from that are things like marines being able to go anywhere and probably find something useful to do, whereas aliens tend to run around fairly directionless and sometimes lost. A single skulk is really no threat to an RT or a power node due to how long it takes to destroy, whereas a single marine can destroy cysts all day long, and it takes only about ten seconds to axe just about any alien structure that isn't a hive to death. Marines have very little downtime due to quick spawning, and they're given a constant stream of upgrades and toys that let them continue to feel useful throughout the match, whereas aliens have longer respawns, have timesinks, and are expected to invest pres in order to ride the power curve. Marine firepower culminates with a dual-minigun suit of awesome which, who cares about balance, is just badass to use, while Hive 3 gets aliens the ability to volunteer a trip to the spawn queue in exchange for some non-fatal damage to the marines.
Don't even get me started on the 'little things', like parasite being removed by medkits, armor being repaired by the armory, aliens having to redo upgrades when their structures get destroyed, etc.
A random train of thoughts and suggestions from a new player (don't let that discourage you, though; I am from the generation of gamers that was around before things got "casual". I have no problems with adapting quickly to new game mechanics.): <ul><li>Make some alien upgrades available without requiring a second hive. Marines can research up to level 3 armour and weapons without ever needing a second command post. But aliens are limited to only the trait-type of their current hive and can't get any permanent upgrades without at least two hives.
Leap would be a pretty good candidate for this in order to buff your Skulks early on to keep up with the marine upgrades. And the Lerk's poisonous cloud -basically his signature move- is not really so overpowered that it would hurt him to have that researchable with only one hive - he is already pretty fragile against shotgun marines and yet a steep investment, so might as well buff him a bit. Others like Bile Bomb and Blink are stronger abilities and thus justify to need a second hive, as well as stompy Onos. </li><li>Buff the Gorge's structures, at least his clots (or what they are called). Give them the ability to place more of them, maybe make it also depend on the hives and add +5 clot capacity for each controlled hive, so you can actually seal off more than one area as Gorge once you gain more map control. And let it take a bit more than one grenade to destroy them all. </li><li>Nerf the endgame Onos tactic, buff other approaches instead. Often games end where you starve them Marines in their base, with no chance for them to free themselves but still strong enough to keep aliens pushed back, just to wait for the inevitable wave of 5 Onos due to all the resources that the aliens control. The match is basically decided for 5-10 minutes already and everyone is just waiting until the aliens got enough cash to prepare their combined stomp - wasting everyone's time. And while a good Skulk can take out an enemy Exo all on his own, it gets hard for 1-2 marines alone to take out an Onos. </li><li>If the aliens manage to get a fourth hive, why not allow them to turn that into an advantage so that they can end the game without the obligatory Onos? For instance allow aliens to select a fourth trait to evolve into (depending on what the fourth hive got assigned to be), so they could run Carpace AND Regeneration if they wanted to. (Why are traits from the same tech tree actually mutually exclusive? None of those combinations seems really OP to me. It just limits the amount of choices and freedom that the aliens could have.)
Or come up with a fourth tech tree for aliens, so there would be a reason to have four hives and to give even more variety in gameplay and in the strategic decisions made by a commander. We have trees for durability, agility and stealth. The next plausible thing in that list would be offence (of course balanced reasonably). Traits from this tree could (slightly!) increase the damage per hit or the rate of fire (making it also easier to land hits with projectiles) and would add another counter against the armour upgrades of the marines. The associated building for this tree could be another attacking structure like the Whip, possibly more focused on a ranged attack, or some pheromones that give a small buff for combat to all aliens in a radius around them and which stays active for a few more seconds after leaving the radius. </li><li>Maybe also the ability to re-evolve your hive (at the cost of resources, of course). So you can change your tactics as alien commander on the fly if needed. However, aliens can still only evolve traits from the hives that are currently active. So you can't go Shade Hive first, then build all the stealth trait upgrades and then switch back to a Durability Hive and still use those stealth traits. Buildings that belong to a non-active hive type could shut down or work only at minimum capacity (flickering stealth on buildings, less frequent and less effective health fumes, etc.) or anything like that. </li><li>And the last suggestion is a careful one, since I don't know how it would work out in "comp" play: maybe limit the amount of Exos and Onos that are available simultaneously to <u>three</u> (after buffing the other aliens), so things don't always drag out to the endgame stomp and it actually becomes important where you have your "super units" on the map, as you can't have armies of them defend every possible place. And three should still be way enough to take out any heavily defended base. The only danger would be griefers who would become such a unit and then decide to idle somewhere in their base - but I guess you could votekick such players.</li></ul>
<!--quoteo(post=2011333:date=Nov 5 2012, 12:40 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 5 2012, 12:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011333"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pretty much exactly yes...
Fade still needs buffing and Onos eggs still need sorting though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fade needs focus (both claws at once, just like in the trailer) and Aliens need a way to decide where they want their egg to spawn. Nothing like spawning in a dying hive surrounded by GL spam and getting blown up in seconds.
What do you mean by the onos egg?
Alien commanders also need a way to force spawn dead players as skulks at a hive (alien beacon)... but not sure how that would work in terms of balance. Or maybe we need babblers to shoot out of crags, as they're planning to do at some point.
Now that I got 30 or so matches under my belt (played 1000+ of ns1), I see why this thread exists.
I have no issue with the state of the marines, at all. They are fine just the way they are. However, I would like to see the skull and gorge beefed up a bit.
Skull's parasite needs to slowly kill, more parasites, more health you lose per second. It also should shoot just a touch faster. Only fear is it might throw the balance of the game off.
I don't understand why the gorges are limited in building, at all. That's why kept the game balanced in ns1. If the area is infested, the gorge should be able to build whatever if wants. Part of ns1 was blocking the entrances to hives. It would required the cannon (forget exact name) and/or nade launcher to clear it out.
I took out a bunch of hives last night with a grenade launcher and jetpack. Old school ns1 style. I got right in because there is NO hive defense. Nothing blocking the entrances.
To the guy that mentioned Aliens having a lack of a mini-map... true. If Aliens can see the whole map just as Marines can, then there's no advantage what-so-ever to a mini-map. It's absolutely silly in terms of design. It's actually made me stop looking at the mini-map when I play as a Marine.
<!--quoteo(post=2011597:date=Nov 5 2012, 04:59 PM:name=Hyperforms)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hyperforms @ Nov 5 2012, 04:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011597"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To the guy that mentioned Aliens having a lack of a mini-map... true. If Aliens can see the whole map just as Marines can, then there's no advantage what-so-ever to a mini-map. It's absolutely silly in terms of design. It's actually made me stop looking at the mini-map when I play as a Marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I run around holding the map key most of the game, since I still don't know the maps THAT well yet.
<!--quoteo(post=2011373:date=Nov 5 2012, 06:03 PM:name=[AI]-infect)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ([AI]-infect @ Nov 5 2012, 06:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011373"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Now that I got 30 or so matches under my belt (played 1000+ of ns1), I see why this thread exists.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whilst the rest of your post isn't <i>that</i> bad...
*Attempts to say thing without sounding like a know-it-all-######-face*
30 matches isn't really enough to <i>know</i> the game that well.
<!--quoteo(post=2011597:date=Nov 5 2012, 08:59 PM:name=Hyperforms)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hyperforms @ Nov 5 2012, 08:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011597"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If Aliens can see the whole map just as Marines can, then there's no advantage what-so-ever to a mini-map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I.... don't think you understand what a minimap is for....
<!--quoteo(post=2011605:date=Nov 5 2012, 02:04 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 5 2012, 02:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011605"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I.... don't think you understand what a minimap is for....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Care to elaborate? I don't feel like I'm missing anything by not looking at it when playing as a Marine. I just open the whole thing and it works well enough. It's not difficult to see Aliens for me so I don't need the mini-map for that either.
<!--quoteo(post=2011640:date=Nov 5 2012, 04:33 PM:name=xen32)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xen32 @ Nov 5 2012, 04:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011640"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm forced to play aliens in most games and here's what I do: 1. Die a hundred times as a skulk 2. 75 res 3. ONOS 4. ????? 5. PROFIT!!!!!!
I'd really like to play lerk or fade, but these things will grant you no win. You are forced to save for onos if you want to win. And that's bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fades are fun too. I haven't tried the new lerk yet, but as a marine I kindof hate him. Not quite as much as I hated the old lerk with projectile spore though.
I go for the frontiersmen simply because I'm a huge fan of teamwork. It's just very fun for me. I'd definitely go kharaa if Gorges could still build buildings and forward bases that have actual value (teamwork right there). In NS1, you could build a forward location and your alien buds would all come to it so they could retreat to it to heal and continue the push. In NS2, aliens just feels way too much like everyone is a lone wolf and being a gorge is just ridiculously boring. I can build some turrets that barely do a thing or block off hallways for a few seconds with big blobs.
I miss when I could try to get close to an enemy traffic area, drop a sensory, and allow my skulk teammates to gather around for an ambush. You just can't do any of that in NS2 unless the "alien commander" (which I'm not a fan of) does it. So far, only once have I seen the alien commander actually put upgrade buildings anywhere that wasn't intended to be a "minimum required" to upgrade and have them hidden away at our hive.
Also, gorges were so fun in NS1 because you had your own territory you could control. You could build upgrade buildings, you could web areas to slow down marines coming through the area. Gorges could build their own personal homes out front as a forward base. As a frontiersman, you'd see a small building and go Gorge hunting because it's likely nearby. In NS2, gorges only real value is just chasing after faster aliens and trying to heal them.
I would be using the mini-map as a quick point of reference in terms of where I am and what's around me(I mean the map layout itself), but I've gotten so used to popping up the full map to do that as an Alien that I've stopped looking at the mini-map as a Marine. The full map is far more informative for that anyway, so meh.
<!--quoteo(post=2011640:date=Nov 5 2012, 09:33 PM:name=xen32)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xen32 @ Nov 5 2012, 09:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011640"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm forced to play aliens in most games and here's what I do: 1. Die a hundred times as a skulk 2. 75 res 3. ONOS 4. ????? 5. PROFIT!!!!!!
I'd really like to play lerk or fade, but these things will grant you no win. You are forced to save for onos if you want to win. And that's bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
garbage.
lerk is amazing... umbra = 50% less damage from bullets... spores = marine can't chase, can't walk through the gas without requiring medpack spam from commander, obscured vision, totally weaken fully upgraded marines so skulks can move in and finish them off.
on top of all of that, the ranged 'silent' spike attack is absolutely fantastic if you remain hidden... for clinging onto the ceiling to snipe buildings and sniping lone marines (maybe not kill them if they're any good, but since they can't kill you unless you're playing wrong then any damage tagging is free).
poison bite is very nice in group fights as well because you draw the marine focus and have the mobility to escape, leaving behind a poisoned marine for your allies to finish off.
are you sure you weren't just playing lerk badly?
personally i think a fully upgraded lerk is the most useful alien lifeform in late game... although they probably don't scale as you only need so much gas/umbra.
I'm going to preface this by saying I am not a newbie. I played NS1 for years under the moniker "Flarfignuggen".
That said... Aliens are at a disadvantage. Period. I had this opinion back in closed alpha/beta/whateveryouwanttocallit but I did not share it because as some pointed out, the win ratios quite some time ago were nearly 75/25 in favor of Aliens and any such utterances would have been shouted down by people such as those in this thread. That win ratio boiled down to, in my opinion, the performance issues. I could see the writing on the wall that once the performance-locked Marine was no longer an issue, the Aliens were not going to fare well. And once most of those performance issues were stamped out (combined with further "balancing"), my predictions came to pass.
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Why do I say this? Anyone that played with me back in ye olden days know I'm not a liar when I say my skill from the previous game is giving me a significant advantage over the new players. Effectively granting me a crutch that will only last until the average Marine learns how to play/the "indie buyers" quit playing and move on to the next project. Not how to be better. Simply how to <i>play</i>. I can take down Marines right up to and slightly beyond the point that they have everything unlocked as a Skulk but I don't attribute that to any sort of "skill" insomuch as <b>blatant luck</b>. I have to effectively catch them with their thumb up their ass to score a kill on a 3/3 marine because they literally have <i>less</i> than zero excuse to have died. This is because those fights take upwards of 15 (or more) seconds. Anyone that isn't awful at Marines can recognize the issue with that, because that's 15 seconds of shooting at a Skulk and <i>not</i> killing it (and as a Marine, I've taken to not grabbing shotguns until a Fade or Onos appears because it honestly gives me too much of an advantage...unless I'm feeling like being a jerk). I have to have 5 perfectly-connected bites to take down that Marine. Meanwhile, the Marine Commander can be dropping medpacks on him, he can go look at an armory if available, or maybe a MAC happens to be nearby. These all serve to lengthen the fight, which does nothing but help the Marine. Aliens thrive on a quick kill. Marines are better off when the fight takes longer.
This brings me to my actual complaint: Aliens take too long to kill for the style of play they're expected to have. That is, guerrilla warfare, hit-and-run, ambush, etc. (Of course, this is slightly bizarre. The Alien player, a bacterial lifeform that reconstitutes itself without ever "dying" is supposed to be valuing their life and not throwing it away...but the Marine player, a human that would hypothetically have their own survival as being important is encouraged to take on suicide missions. What?*) But I simply take too long to kill even an armor level 1 Marine. <b>I don't need extra survivability as an Alien, I need firepower.</b> When it takes me 5 flawless bites to kill a Marine, there is no measure of "surprise" or "ambush". It's simply me betting on killing that Marine before he gets his thumb out of his ass. And if that Marine has a Jetpack, the time available before he reacts is even less because <i>he is faster than I am</i> which I find to be the most laughable thing. Leap and walljump are so hopelessly flawed and slow that I can barely keep up with a Marine that has <i>any</i> understanding of Jetpack flight. Getting 5 flawless bites on that Marine becomes next to impossible when he can be healed to full at any time or land on top of an Armory to get a significant heal/repair during the fight. This even applies to structure sabotage. As a Marine, I can hopelessly cripple the Alien Commander's limited powers (another issue but I'll leave that be for now) in under 5 seconds and even cost said Commander resources by doing so. As a Skulk, I have to spend nearly half a minute munching on an Extractor to take it down or slightly less time on the node...which can be almost instantaneously repaired if the Marine has a Welder (and also costs the Marine Commander nothing to replace...). Or further, as a Marine, I might have a Shotgun, Grenade Launcher, or Flamethrower, which grants me even <i>more</i> anti-structure power (not even considering ARCs...). And as a bonus, those weapons can still be highly, highly effective against any Alien assailant (FT less so but give me a Jetpack and suddenly the tables turn again). A Gorge spamming Bile Bomb can't really say the same thing.
As for a suggestion? Add a speed-based multiplier to damage. Current damage would be a base damage at +0% movement while, say, +100-150% would be the maximum bonus placed at an attainable threshold that doesn't require trickery or insanely lucky map design to accomplish (i.e., de-neuter Leap and/or wall jump while you're at it). This already exists with Charge to some degree (which makes it no more a "hidden modifier" than anything else Charlie seems to have forgotten about when he made that statement). Simply add it as a function to the other Aliens (and make it less finicky...the Charge bonus damage is ridiculously stingy). And no, this wouldn't make Celerity overpowered compared to Adrenaline...because Celerity would simply serve to "top off" the damage. Adrenaline would still be an arguable purchase because you still get the damage buff but trade it for more potential actions. However, the mechanics of the Fade's Shadow Step and Blink don't really make this work as well (since you can't swipe mid-movement and maintaining the speed <i>while attacking</i> is not exactly on the same level of difficulty as Leap/Glide/Charge+Bite) so I don't have a solid suggestion for them.
---
* This point is probably one of my biggest criticisms of NS2 versus NS1. The NS1 Skulks had a much more suicidal outlook on their actions than the Marines, where surviving to push to a hive location or to plant RTs was a vital accomplishment that required while the Skulk could simply serve as a distraction or harassment to stall the Marines and not worry about having to wait 10-15 seconds before respawning. In NS2, this situation has entirely flipped over, with Alien respawn taking so long and the tradeoff in value being so much higher. And in NS2, I don't think I ever see a Marine Commander actually <i>drop</i> gear for his Marines. And when I do, it's one or two items which is much more plausible to fight against than the "SUDDENLY: 3-5 EXOSUITS/7 JETPACKS" situation NS2 has with team resources buffing personal resources. I fully support player purchases of weaponry from the Armory (not having to drop Welders is the best thing ever) but the Prototype Lab purchases have always been a sore point for me.
---
<b>TL;DR:</b> NS1 vet's complaints and suggestions that are surely going to have no effect.
Aliens lack fun. I said it in beta and i say it now. Its not like they are totally no fun... but rines are alot more fun. See, i was ns1 all time aliens player (mostly gorge).. in ns2.. no thanks. Skulks get oneshotted by shotguns even with cara. Gorge is weak. 3 res for weak hydras (max 3). Clogs die as fast as hydras and mostly only 1 clog destroyed means the rine can just go through. Only weak spit, and boring heal/Bile ######. Lerk is fragile as ######.. yet he is a melee unit. Cloud and bite are strong.. but go near a bunch of rines or a shot(op)gun and ur dead. So no Cloud or bite if u want to life. And spikes are a joke... yeah flame me... its impossible to hit if u and ur target are moving and if u dont move ur dead. 30 res... Fade seems to be dead to fast. Maybe usefull for those fade experts, but most people and i are not.. so i dont pay 50 res to be dead in 2 shots. Onos is fine.
In addition to this.. we dont have hive teleport. Some of our upgrades suck (adrenaline.. sry its bad) or we have to take em (cara.. without ur dead) and on top we cant mix up our upgrades and so are pretty much forced to always take the same combination (thanks for that change..), we dont scale (weapon 1-3, armor 1-3) and our late game abilities kinda suck. Oh and we die alot more (means waiting and no res while dead).. while we cant pick up our dead lifeforms again... so as a rine we have alot more res/toys to play with.
And the last beta patch(es) made it easier to hit for rines.. while we didnt got a health/armor buff.
Comments
Yes, balance refers to bringing practical complexity close to the theoretical one:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One aspect of complexity come from the tech tree, given a tech tree you can compute the number of different build orders. This number typically grows very fast when the tech tree becomes bigger, so adding a few elements to the game can hugely change the number of possible build orders. For example adding a fourth chamber to the aliens.
<img src="http://www.sapdesignguild.org/community/images/tree_graph.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Now we could call this is the theoretical build orders depth, but of course what matter in the end is the practical build orders depth, and it's where balance comes in; most build orders should be equally successful. If just one build order is super good all the potential complexity is lost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually think thats fine. Different play-styles you can choose from depending on how you are feeling. If I want a round where I am just focusing on aiming, I'll join the marines and just defend a chokepoint/RT/techpoint. Or I could focus on guerrilla warfare and try to take some alien RT's down while my team is pushing somewhere else. Or I could join that push pressuring a hive and have a fragfest.
Now thinking about it, aliens feature a lot of these choices as well. The only difference is that even as a simple skulk, you should think a bit more than the general marine. But I like that manifestation of asymmetric gameplay (even more so when there was no alien commander back in NS1).
Also Temphage, try not being so damn negative about the game. Reading through the forum, your posts are all addressing real or imagined flaws...just take a step back.
Personally, I love the aliens. They're definitely more unique and challenging to play, which I enjoy. I'd love to see a buff to lerk/fade, though, because right now they feel like a waste of resources. Probably paired with some nerf to Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. When I first started playing I dreaded playing aliens because it meant I was going to die, a lot. Eventually I wrapped my head around the basics of playing skulk but it really just isn't as accessible as a marine with an assault rifle. Everyone knows how to shoot a gun in an FPS. Hard to say how that can be improved at all, how do you put training wheels on a skulk without ruining them? To their credit, they put videos in the main menu that go over the basics, but not everyone watches them before they jump in (I didn't).
I guess all anyone can do is take rookie skulks under their wing. Skulk isn't <i>that</i> hard, but if someone goes into it thinking they can just run at marines and spam their bite they're going to have a bad time. I'm sure pretty much anyone can get it if they're taught
"Boring."
"Oh, guess I'll go buy Borderlands 2 instead."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On a humorous note, if they haven't already bought Borderlands 2 then their taste in games was never relevant anyway.
What would I do? Well as you are asking :) Just little things really.
1. Make the Skulk spit more powerful. I don't see it used that much, and if it did more damage maybe it would be used more and it would also be better at weakening Marines before going in for the kill. Especially useful later in the game when it takes 1000 bites to kill a single marine.
2. A bit more adren or a slower use rate for it. Don't know about anyone else but since Adren was reduced a lot during the later stages of the beta, I spend as much time watching my Adren meter as I do the actual game and that cant be good.
3. A better implementation of wall-jump. Give the Skulks a good reason to get off the floor and onto the ceilings and walls where its harder to be shot.
4. A touch more armour across all life forms and a little of the same for Carapace.
Not big changes but ones that may address the frustration of playing Aliens atm.
But after those, I agree with the thinking that something has to be done about early 2nd hive tres Onos. Its been a problem for a while and its not going away. If anything its getting more common on public servers as well as the main choice in comp games. The reason being is its one of the few strategies for Aliens to win.
I would say 80% of the games I have played recently are marine wins. Most of the Alien wins are 2nd hive Onos wins, Marines lacking a comm/new comm, Marines quiting and auto win kicks in etc. In matches with equally skilled teams and decent comms there is still more of a chance marines will win but its more of a grind to get an Alien victory.
Sal
You're doing it wrong. Sentry nests, while powerful, are limited to 1 per room and 3 per battery. And they aren't exactly to ensure maximum targeting potential. A gorge with bile bomb wrecks clusters of armored structures like that. Some commanders do get bile bomb, its an afterthought for others. And if marines stomp on in to come harass the gorge, they'll probably step away from the sentries. And then your skulks can get them. Teamwork, I can certainly understand complaints to being overpowered, but I've seen skilled marines who could shoot a fly off a wall still overwhelmed by a little bit of teamwork and mayhem caused by the aliens.
I think aliens might get a bit more enjoyable if most of the alien experience wouldn't consist of waiting.
You wait around 12 seconds every time you die, and most people get a K/D < 1 while playing aliens. So most alien players spend more time waiting to respawn than the average marine. Also, as aliens rely more on stealth and ambushes and can't help the commander build stuff, most of your alive time consist either of waiting for the opportunity to strike or running around semi-aimlessly.
In NS1 Skulk spit was useful because of the hivesight side-effects. In NS2, with hivesight severely nerfed, it has very little purpose.
<!--quoteo(post=2011240:date=Nov 5 2012, 08:29 AM:name=Salraine_Chi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Nov 5 2012, 08:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011240"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. A better implementation of wall-jump. Give the Skulks a good reason to get off the floor and onto the ceilings and walls where its harder to be shot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally, I avoid this as running along the walls is rather fatal.
In NS1, I remember "knowing" where the marines were, hivesight (I guess?) was the biggest part of this. (am I crazy or did it also show buildings being damaged? I certainly don't remember pressing 'c' then struggling to find 'me' and then trying to work out where the hell the red circle is, then repeating that 5 seconds later when I inevitably get lost due to the disorienting alien sight thing, only to discover that the red circle is just a dying cyst due to the chain being cut 5 minutes earlier...)
In NS2, I have no idea where the marines are... if I hop down this corridor as a shotgun marine turns the corner, 'splat'. So I go slower, listen, hide in the roof or down on the floor...
If I were looking for changes:
- re-visit things like hivesight, aliens move quickly, but navigate poorly.
- take a look at the fade. In NS1 these were the 'grunts' that won/lost the war. In NS2 they are rather irrelevant.
- take a look at the onos. Is it too powerful in general?
Personally, I save every available resource for onos. An onos changes the battlefield, fade/lerks just change the wall colour due to blood splatter.
This guy gets that this got it!
+3 Hive onos egg
++Better fade
+++Better wall jump
++++MORE GORGE STUFF
+++++ More Awesome 3rd hive stuff (Xenoside sucks)
++++++ RAILGUN FU*K YEAH!
Aliens do have a steeper learning curve because they're not human. Pub skulks continue rushing at marines on the floor and neglect to use the walls, ceilings, vents and such. They also don't even know how to use their sneaky feet to get places without the marines hearing them. Another fatal mistake is not knowing when to run away - if you see three marines in a room pointing their guns at you, why rush in as a lone skulk?
Same goes for walking lerks using spikes. The easiest lifeform for new players to use is the onos, but for obvious reasons most people don't get the chance to use them in a one-sided match. Even if they did, they rush at the marines and fight until they do not have enough health and armor to run away - poof, there goes 75 res. Most new Onos don't even realize that they have Charge, let alone Stomp when it's researched.
Actually, the single biggest problem is that new skulks don't know how to play as skulk - this leads to excessive early deaths, the loss of key locations on the map, failure to defend RTs, etc. Even a good commander can't do anything to come back from that.
<b>The solution is NOT to buff up skulks (not yet anyway) but to try and teach new skulks how to play.</b> A mic is useful at these times, giving them game tips on the go. If the vets keep quiet and don't dispense advice, you'll end up with people wanting to stack only marines because they simply don't understand how to play as a skulk.
Aliens do have a steeper learning curve because they're not human. Pub skulks continue rushing at marines on the floor and neglect to use the walls, ceilings, vents and such. They also don't even know how to use their sneaky feet to get places without the marines hearing them. Same goes for walking lerks using spikes. The easiest lifeform for new players to use is the onos, but for obvious reasons most people don't get the chance to use them in a one-sided match. Even if they did, they rush at the marines and fight until they do not have enough health and armor to run away - poof, there goes 75 res. Most new Onos don't even realize that they have Charge, let alone Stomp when it's researched.
Actually, the single biggest problem is that new skulks don't know how to play as skulk - this leads to excessive early deaths, the loss of key locations on the map, failure to defend RTs, etc. Even a good commander can't do anything to come back from that.
<b>The solution is NOT to buff up skulks (not yet anyway) but to try and teach new skulks how to play.</b> A mic is useful at these times, giving them game tips on the go. If the vets keep quiet and don't dispense advice, you'll end up with people wanting to stack only marines because they simply don't understand how to play as a skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much exactly yes...
Fade still needs buffing and Onos eggs still need sorting though.
Aliens do have a steeper learning curve because they're not human. Pub skulks continue rushing at marines on the floor and neglect to use the walls, ceilings, vents and such. They also don't even know how to use their sneaky feet to get places without the marines hearing them. Same goes for walking lerks using spikes. The easiest lifeform for new players to use is the onos, but for obvious reasons most people don't get the chance to use them in a one-sided match. Even if they did, they rush at the marines and fight until they do not have enough health and armor to run away - poof, there goes 75 res. Most new Onos don't even realize that they have Charge, let alone Stomp when it's researched.
Actually, the single biggest problem is that new skulks don't know how to play as skulk - this leads to excessive early deaths, the loss of key locations on the map, failure to defend RTs, etc. Even a good commander can't do anything to come back from that.
<b>The solution is NOT to buff up skulks (not yet anyway) but to try and teach new skulks how to play.</b> A mic is useful at these times, giving them game tips on the go. If the vets keep quiet and don't dispense advice, you'll end up with people wanting to stack only marines because they simply don't understand how to play as a skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You really don't see a problem with the fact that in order to get 90% out of marine gameplay, you only need four skills: aim, basic teamwork (you hold 'e', I'll guard), holding 'e', and holding 'shift'?
Aliens require advanced teamwork, have advanced and unintuitive movement techniques, have less direction overall, require you to be able to outsmart marines, have better timing, and use stealth, as well as having good aim?
The bigger issues aside from that are things like marines being able to go anywhere and probably find something useful to do, whereas aliens tend to run around fairly directionless and sometimes lost. A single skulk is really no threat to an RT or a power node due to how long it takes to destroy, whereas a single marine can destroy cysts all day long, and it takes only about ten seconds to axe just about any alien structure that isn't a hive to death. Marines have very little downtime due to quick spawning, and they're given a constant stream of upgrades and toys that let them continue to feel useful throughout the match, whereas aliens have longer respawns, have timesinks, and are expected to invest pres in order to ride the power curve. Marine firepower culminates with a dual-minigun suit of awesome which, who cares about balance, is just badass to use, while Hive 3 gets aliens the ability to volunteer a trip to the spawn queue in exchange for some non-fatal damage to the marines.
Don't even get me started on the 'little things', like parasite being removed by medkits, armor being repaired by the armory, aliens having to redo upgrades when their structures get destroyed, etc.
Make armories unable to remove it.
1 parasite = hive sight
2 parasite = hive sight + 30 seconds 1hp/second DoT
3 parasite = hive sight + indefinate 1hp/second DoT only healable by medbay upgrade for armory ( ability to remove parasites and faster healing)
It's a small buff but makes parasite at least somewhat interesting compared to the crap we get right now
<ul><li>Make some alien upgrades available without requiring a second hive.
Marines can research up to level 3 armour and weapons without ever needing a second command post. But aliens are limited to only the trait-type of their current hive and can't get any permanent upgrades without at least two hives.
Leap would be a pretty good candidate for this in order to buff your Skulks early on to keep up with the marine upgrades. And the Lerk's poisonous cloud -basically his signature move- is not really so overpowered that it would hurt him to have that researchable with only one hive - he is already pretty fragile against shotgun marines and yet a steep investment, so might as well buff him a bit.
Others like Bile Bomb and Blink are stronger abilities and thus justify to need a second hive, as well as stompy Onos.
</li><li>Buff the Gorge's structures, at least his clots (or what they are called). Give them the ability to place more of them, maybe make it also depend on the hives and add +5 clot capacity for each controlled hive, so you can actually seal off more than one area as Gorge once you gain more map control. And let it take a bit more than one grenade to destroy them all.
</li><li>Nerf the endgame Onos tactic, buff other approaches instead. Often games end where you starve them Marines in their base, with no chance for them to free themselves but still strong enough to keep aliens pushed back, just to wait for the inevitable wave of 5 Onos due to all the resources that the aliens control. The match is basically decided for 5-10 minutes already and everyone is just waiting until the aliens got enough cash to prepare their combined stomp - wasting everyone's time.
And while a good Skulk can take out an enemy Exo all on his own, it gets hard for 1-2 marines alone to take out an Onos.
</li><li>If the aliens manage to get a fourth hive, why not allow them to turn that into an advantage so that they can end the game without the obligatory Onos? For instance allow aliens to select a fourth trait to evolve into (depending on what the fourth hive got assigned to be), so they could run Carpace AND Regeneration if they wanted to. (Why are traits from the same tech tree actually mutually exclusive? None of those combinations seems really OP to me. It just limits the amount of choices and freedom that the aliens could have.)
Or come up with a fourth tech tree for aliens, so there would be a reason to have four hives and to give even more variety in gameplay and in the strategic decisions made by a commander. We have trees for durability, agility and stealth. The next plausible thing in that list would be offence (of course balanced reasonably).
Traits from this tree could (slightly!) increase the damage per hit or the rate of fire (making it also easier to land hits with projectiles) and would add another counter against the armour upgrades of the marines. The associated building for this tree could be another attacking structure like the Whip, possibly more focused on a ranged attack, or some pheromones that give a small buff for combat to all aliens in a radius around them and which stays active for a few more seconds after leaving the radius.
</li><li>Maybe also the ability to re-evolve your hive (at the cost of resources, of course). So you can change your tactics as alien commander on the fly if needed. However, aliens can still only evolve traits from the hives that are currently active. So you can't go Shade Hive first, then build all the stealth trait upgrades and then switch back to a Durability Hive and still use those stealth traits. Buildings that belong to a non-active hive type could shut down or work only at minimum capacity (flickering stealth on buildings, less frequent and less effective health fumes, etc.) or anything like that.
</li><li>And the last suggestion is a careful one, since I don't know how it would work out in "comp" play: maybe limit the amount of Exos and Onos that are available simultaneously to <u>three</u> (after buffing the other aliens), so things don't always drag out to the endgame stomp and it actually becomes important where you have your "super units" on the map, as you can't have armies of them defend every possible place. And three should still be way enough to take out any heavily defended base. The only danger would be griefers who would become such a unit and then decide to idle somewhere in their base - but I guess you could votekick such players.</li></ul>
Fade still needs buffing and Onos eggs still need sorting though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fade needs focus (both claws at once, just like in the trailer) and Aliens need a way to decide where they want their egg to spawn. Nothing like spawning in a dying hive surrounded by GL spam and getting blown up in seconds.
What do you mean by the onos egg?
Alien commanders also need a way to force spawn dead players as skulks at a hive (alien beacon)... but not sure how that would work in terms of balance. Or maybe we need babblers to shoot out of crags, as they're planning to do at some point.
I have no issue with the state of the marines, at all. They are fine just the way they are. However, I would like to see the skull and gorge beefed up a bit.
Skull's parasite needs to slowly kill, more parasites, more health you lose per second. It also should shoot just a touch faster. Only fear is it might throw the balance of the game off.
I don't understand why the gorges are limited in building, at all. That's why kept the game balanced in ns1. If the area is infested, the gorge should be able to build whatever if wants. Part of ns1 was blocking the entrances to hives. It would required the cannon (forget exact name) and/or nade launcher to clear it out.
I took out a bunch of hives last night with a grenade launcher and jetpack. Old school ns1 style. I got right in because there is NO hive defense. Nothing blocking the entrances.
I run around holding the map key most of the game, since I still don't know the maps THAT well yet.
Now that I got 30 or so matches under my belt (played 1000+ of ns1), I see why this thread exists.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whilst the rest of your post isn't <i>that</i> bad...
*Attempts to say thing without sounding like a know-it-all-######-face*
30 matches isn't really enough to <i>know</i> the game that well.
I.... don't think you understand what a minimap is for....
Care to elaborate? I don't feel like I'm missing anything by not looking at it when playing as a Marine. I just open the whole thing and it works well enough. It's not difficult to see Aliens for me so I don't need the mini-map for that either.
1. Die a hundred times as a skulk
2. 75 res
3. ONOS
4. ?????
5. PROFIT!!!!!!
I'd really like to play lerk or fade, but these things will grant you no win. You are forced to save for onos if you want to win. And that's bad.
1. Die a hundred times as a skulk
2. 75 res
3. ONOS
4. ?????
5. PROFIT!!!!!!
I'd really like to play lerk or fade, but these things will grant you no win. You are forced to save for onos if you want to win. And that's bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fades are fun too. I haven't tried the new lerk yet, but as a marine I kindof hate him. Not quite as much as I hated the old lerk with projectile spore though.
I miss when I could try to get close to an enemy traffic area, drop a sensory, and allow my skulk teammates to gather around for an ambush. You just can't do any of that in NS2 unless the "alien commander" (which I'm not a fan of) does it. So far, only once have I seen the alien commander actually put upgrade buildings anywhere that wasn't intended to be a "minimum required" to upgrade and have them hidden away at our hive.
Also, gorges were so fun in NS1 because you had your own territory you could control. You could build upgrade buildings, you could web areas to slow down marines coming through the area. Gorges could build their own personal homes out front as a forward base. As a frontiersman, you'd see a small building and go Gorge hunting because it's likely nearby. In NS2, gorges only real value is just chasing after faster aliens and trying to heal them.
Hey look, the alien equivalent of a comm scan makes people<b> show up through the wall</b>, but damn I really could use that minimap right now!
1. Die a hundred times as a skulk
2. 75 res
3. ONOS
4. ?????
5. PROFIT!!!!!!
I'd really like to play lerk or fade, but these things will grant you no win. You are forced to save for onos if you want to win. And that's bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
garbage.
lerk is amazing... umbra = 50% less damage from bullets... spores = marine can't chase, can't walk through the gas without requiring medpack spam from commander, obscured vision, totally weaken fully upgraded marines so skulks can move in and finish them off.
on top of all of that, the ranged 'silent' spike attack is absolutely fantastic if you remain hidden... for clinging onto the ceiling to snipe buildings and sniping lone marines (maybe not kill them if they're any good, but since they can't kill you unless you're playing wrong then any damage tagging is free).
poison bite is very nice in group fights as well because you draw the marine focus and have the mobility to escape, leaving behind a poisoned marine for your allies to finish off.
are you sure you weren't just playing lerk badly?
personally i think a fully upgraded lerk is the most useful alien lifeform in late game... although they probably don't scale as you only need so much gas/umbra.
That said...
Aliens are at a disadvantage. Period. I had this opinion back in closed alpha/beta/whateveryouwanttocallit but I did not share it because as some pointed out, the win ratios quite some time ago were nearly 75/25 in favor of Aliens and any such utterances would have been shouted down by people such as those in this thread. That win ratio boiled down to, in my opinion, the performance issues. I could see the writing on the wall that once the performance-locked Marine was no longer an issue, the Aliens were not going to fare well. And once most of those performance issues were stamped out (combined with further "balancing"), my predictions came to pass.
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Why do I say this?
Anyone that played with me back in ye olden days know I'm not a liar when I say my skill from the previous game is giving me a significant advantage over the new players. Effectively granting me a crutch that will only last until the average Marine learns how to play/the "indie buyers" quit playing and move on to the next project. Not how to be better. Simply how to <i>play</i>. I can take down Marines right up to and slightly beyond the point that they have everything unlocked as a Skulk but I don't attribute that to any sort of "skill" insomuch as <b>blatant luck</b>. I have to effectively catch them with their thumb up their ass to score a kill on a 3/3 marine because they literally have <i>less</i> than zero excuse to have died. This is because those fights take upwards of 15 (or more) seconds. Anyone that isn't awful at Marines can recognize the issue with that, because that's 15 seconds of shooting at a Skulk and <i>not</i> killing it (and as a Marine, I've taken to not grabbing shotguns until a Fade or Onos appears because it honestly gives me too much of an advantage...unless I'm feeling like being a jerk). I have to have 5 perfectly-connected bites to take down that Marine. Meanwhile, the Marine Commander can be dropping medpacks on him, he can go look at an armory if available, or maybe a MAC happens to be nearby. These all serve to lengthen the fight, which does nothing but help the Marine. Aliens thrive on a quick kill. Marines are better off when the fight takes longer.
This brings me to my actual complaint: Aliens take too long to kill for the style of play they're expected to have. That is, guerrilla warfare, hit-and-run, ambush, etc. (Of course, this is slightly bizarre. The Alien player, a bacterial lifeform that reconstitutes itself without ever "dying" is supposed to be valuing their life and not throwing it away...but the Marine player, a human that would hypothetically have their own survival as being important is encouraged to take on suicide missions. What?*) But I simply take too long to kill even an armor level 1 Marine. <b>I don't need extra survivability as an Alien, I need firepower.</b> When it takes me 5 flawless bites to kill a Marine, there is no measure of "surprise" or "ambush". It's simply me betting on killing that Marine before he gets his thumb out of his ass. And if that Marine has a Jetpack, the time available before he reacts is even less because <i>he is faster than I am</i> which I find to be the most laughable thing. Leap and walljump are so hopelessly flawed and slow that I can barely keep up with a Marine that has <i>any</i> understanding of Jetpack flight. Getting 5 flawless bites on that Marine becomes next to impossible when he can be healed to full at any time or land on top of an Armory to get a significant heal/repair during the fight.
This even applies to structure sabotage. As a Marine, I can hopelessly cripple the Alien Commander's limited powers (another issue but I'll leave that be for now) in under 5 seconds and even cost said Commander resources by doing so. As a Skulk, I have to spend nearly half a minute munching on an Extractor to take it down or slightly less time on the node...which can be almost instantaneously repaired if the Marine has a Welder (and also costs the Marine Commander nothing to replace...). Or further, as a Marine, I might have a Shotgun, Grenade Launcher, or Flamethrower, which grants me even <i>more</i> anti-structure power (not even considering ARCs...). And as a bonus, those weapons can still be highly, highly effective against any Alien assailant (FT less so but give me a Jetpack and suddenly the tables turn again). A Gorge spamming Bile Bomb can't really say the same thing.
As for a suggestion? Add a speed-based multiplier to damage. Current damage would be a base damage at +0% movement while, say, +100-150% would be the maximum bonus placed at an attainable threshold that doesn't require trickery or insanely lucky map design to accomplish (i.e., de-neuter Leap and/or wall jump while you're at it). This already exists with Charge to some degree (which makes it no more a "hidden modifier" than anything else Charlie seems to have forgotten about when he made that statement). Simply add it as a function to the other Aliens (and make it less finicky...the Charge bonus damage is ridiculously stingy). And no, this wouldn't make Celerity overpowered compared to Adrenaline...because Celerity would simply serve to "top off" the damage. Adrenaline would still be an arguable purchase because you still get the damage buff but trade it for more potential actions.
However, the mechanics of the Fade's Shadow Step and Blink don't really make this work as well (since you can't swipe mid-movement and maintaining the speed <i>while attacking</i> is not exactly on the same level of difficulty as Leap/Glide/Charge+Bite) so I don't have a solid suggestion for them.
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* This point is probably one of my biggest criticisms of NS2 versus NS1.
The NS1 Skulks had a much more suicidal outlook on their actions than the Marines, where surviving to push to a hive location or to plant RTs was a vital accomplishment that required while the Skulk could simply serve as a distraction or harassment to stall the Marines and not worry about having to wait 10-15 seconds before respawning. In NS2, this situation has entirely flipped over, with Alien respawn taking so long and the tradeoff in value being so much higher.
And in NS2, I don't think I ever see a Marine Commander actually <i>drop</i> gear for his Marines. And when I do, it's one or two items which is much more plausible to fight against than the "SUDDENLY: 3-5 EXOSUITS/7 JETPACKS" situation NS2 has with team resources buffing personal resources. I fully support player purchases of weaponry from the Armory (not having to drop Welders is the best thing ever) but the Prototype Lab purchases have always been a sore point for me.
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<b>TL;DR:</b> NS1 vet's complaints and suggestions that are surely going to have no effect.
Aliens lack fun. I said it in beta and i say it now.
Its not like they are totally no fun... but rines are alot more fun.
See, i was ns1 all time aliens player (mostly gorge).. in ns2.. no thanks.
Skulks get oneshotted by shotguns even with cara.
Gorge is weak. 3 res for weak hydras (max 3). Clogs die as fast as hydras and mostly only 1 clog destroyed means the rine can just go through. Only weak spit, and boring heal/Bile ######.
Lerk is fragile as ######.. yet he is a melee unit. Cloud and bite are strong.. but go near a bunch of rines or a shot(op)gun and ur dead. So no Cloud or bite if u want to life. And spikes are a joke... yeah flame me... its impossible to hit if u and ur target are moving and if u dont move ur dead. 30 res...
Fade seems to be dead to fast. Maybe usefull for those fade experts, but most people and i are not.. so i dont pay 50 res to be dead in 2 shots.
Onos is fine.
In addition to this.. we dont have hive teleport. Some of our upgrades suck (adrenaline.. sry its bad) or we have to take em (cara.. without ur dead) and on top we cant mix up our upgrades and so are pretty much forced to always take the same combination (thanks for that change..), we dont scale (weapon 1-3, armor 1-3) and our late game abilities kinda suck.
Oh and we die alot more (means waiting and no res while dead).. while we cant pick up our dead lifeforms again... so as a rine we have alot more res/toys to play with.
And the last beta patch(es) made it easier to hit for rines.. while we didnt got a health/armor buff.